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21st Century Tuning Style

  • 1.  21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-30-2017 09:02
    If you receive the Piano Technicians Journal, then I hope you will note the first article in my "21st Century Tuning Style" series. If you can attend the upcoming PTG convention in St. Louis I hope you will consider my class, also entitled "21st Century Tuning Style". The subjects include pure 12th equal temperament and other widths of Equal Temperament tuned uniformly across a piano's scale; integrating stretch and temperament; and a "new" approach to dealing with inharmonicity while tuning. OnlyPure and RCT can both tune a great pure 12th equal temperament. And if you are a user of Verituner, we will discuss the style files I have shared to allow Verituner users to tune various widths of ET!

    ------------------------------
    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Posted 06-30-2017 10:04
    Thanks Kent, sounds great! Can't wait to read the article.

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-12-2017 13:29
    Hello Kent,

    I read your article and liked the concept. But I had a few questions. 

    If I understand your arguments correctly, then the main difference between different styles of equal temperament are the amounts that each is stretched i.e. Using 1.05949 as opposed to 1.05953 as the increasing factor between half steps. 

    Am I correct in think that this is a difference in stretch amounts?

    Second, in terms of cents, what is the difference between the different styles (traditional pure octaves vs. pure twelveths?). The reason I ask is, I use a SAT, and would like to try and duplicate this style, but to do so I must know what the difference is in terms of cents. 

    I look forward to your response.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-18-2017 17:00
    Benjamin,

    I am not aware of a way to apply the tuning of the family of equal temperaments directly to the SAT.

    However, we are a resourceful bunch, and perhaps someone will come up with a way of tuning the widths of ET with the SAT.

    As to your question about cents, keep in mind that these numbers represent zero inharmonicity, and so the half-step numbers make no allowance for the half-steps of pianos that are enlarged by inharmonicity. The octave stretch numbers are more directly applicable, especially to the 4:2 octave.

    Pure octave ET, 100 cents per half-step. Octaves tuned pure.

    CHaS, (100.038 cents per half-step)
    Octave expanded by 0.46 cents

    Pure 26th ET, (100.046 cents per half-step)
    Octave expanded by 0.55 cents

    Pure 19th ET, (100.063 cents per half-step)
    Octave expanded by 0.76 cents

    Pure 12th ET, (100.103 cents per half-step)
    Octave expanded by 1.23 cents

    12-tone to the 2-cent-expanded octave, Rhodes factory stretch, (100.167 cents per half-step)
    Octave expanded by 2 cents

    Pure 5th ET, (100.279 cents per half-step)
    Octave expanded by 3.35 cents

    ------------------------------
    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-18-2017 18:07
    Jim Coleman, Sr. had a method of changing the "A" (of FAC) to expand the octaves to give a pure 5th tuning from the SAT. Adding 1.5 to the reading will cause the generated tuning to produce a pure 5th (or pretty close to it). From C5 to the top, 1.5 cents is added to the overall tuning. This might produce something close to the Pure 5th tuning you refer to in your list, though I am not sure.
    Adding a certain extra "A" number or fraction to the calculated stretch number of the SAT might produce a similar result to one or more of your ET's. The DOB (double octave beat) feature might also be applied, but I'm not educated enough to know if any of these might work.
    I attended your class in St. Louis. I'll revisit your July article and look forward to the rest of your forthcoming articles. I'll admit that much of what you were presenting was over my head.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego

    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



    However, we are a resourceful bunch, and perhaps someone will come up with a way of tuning the widths of ET with the SAT.

    As to your question about cents, keep in mind that these numbers represent zero inharmonicity, and so the half-step numbers make no allowance for the half-steps of pianos that are enlarged by inharmonicity. The octave stretch numbers are more directly applicable, especially to the 4:2 octave.

    Pure octave ET, 100 cents per half-step. Octaves tuned pure.

    CHaS, (100.038 cents per half-step)
    Octave expanded by 0.46 cents

    Pure 26th ET, (100.046 cents per half-step)
    Octave expanded by 0.55 cents

    Pure 19th ET, (100.063 cents per half-step)
    Octave expanded by 0.76 cents

    Pure 12th ET, (100.103 cents per half-step)
    Octave expanded by 1.23 cents

    12-tone to the 2-cent-expanded octave, Rhodes factory stretch, (100.167 cents per half-step)
    Octave expanded by 2 cents

    Pure 5th ET, (100.279 cents per half-step)
    Octave expanded by 3.35 cents

    ------------------------------
    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
    ------------------------------

    >




  • 6.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Posted 07-19-2017 03:20
    Hello Kent - and all interested in this ET thread. By introducing variables in stretching, another variable must be added - that of the Particular Piano. I am convinced that no two pianos will give exactly the same result - and, of course, the piano will have changed even by the time one has finished tuning. That's an inescapable fact. Taken to the n'th degree - this is just what keeps us in business. 
    So long as 'A' is spot on and the 4ths and 5ths and 8ves acceptable - or spot on - when one has finished tuning, this is all we can aspire to.
    The main question here, as I see it, is that of 8ve stretching - and the various 'Data of Stretch' you have given must make us think a bit.
    Essentially given two pianos (both grands, for convenience' sake), both the same maker - say  Yamaha CF and a C3 (or their equivalent current model number) in applying this 8ve stretching in an identical manner to both pianos . . . . will the results be the same?
    Interesting.
    Against this E.T. philosophy, how does the result from the Farley/Serkin temperament of 3rd. June 2014 stand up?
    Michael     UK





  • 7.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2017 20:51
    "Essentially given two pianos (both grands, for convenience' sake), both the same maker - say  Yamaha CF and a C3 (or their equivalent current model number) in applying this 8ve stretching in an identical manner to both pianos . . . . will the results be the same?"

    This is indeed an interesting question. I assume that the inharmonicity of the two pianos will be different, even if the pianos are identical make, model, and age.

    However, if one corrects for inharmonicity, and then tempers the octave (generally, the 4:2 in the temperament area) beyond that needed to correct for inharmonicity by the amounts given, then the aural effect of the two tunings will be fairly 
    indistinguishable when the pianos are similar. When the pianos are dissimilar, I have a video of very much differing pianos all tuned in pure 12th equal temperament; I believe the video demonstrates that the overall aural effect of the tunings is much the same even though the pianos themselves differ greatly.

    ArpeggioMulti.m4v

    Dropbox remove preview
    ArpeggioMulti.m4v
    Dropbox is a free service that lets you bring your photos, docs, and videos anywhere and share them easily. Never email yourself a file again!
    View this on Dropbox >




    ------------------------------
    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Posted 07-20-2017 12:46
    I thought I'd interject this into the conversation. Just found out from Bernhard that there's a "Basic" version available of OnlyPure  that's only $407.17. (That's euros conversion rate to American dollars right now. It's 350 euros.) There's no auto advance feature in this version. I think that's really good news. It makes OnlyPure very competitive and affordable.

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-20-2017 13:11
    Available now on the AppStore for iOS for $349.99, the OnlyPure basic version with manual note switching only, no auto note switching.

    ------------------------------
    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2017 22:09
    Hi Kent, Benjamin:

    I think I may have found a way to make the SAT produce a (near) perfect 12th temperament. Referencing your different octave types below, and recalling Jim Coleman Sr's perfect 5th tweak by adding 1.5 to the "A" number, I tried adding just .5 to the measured "A" number in my SAT.

    Here's my reasoning:

    The P12th octave width is roughly 1/3 the width of the P5th octave. Reducing the added amount to .5 is about 1/3 of Coleman's added number (1.5).

    I got a nice compliment when I tried this on a client's piano. It was a small Samick 140. I tried it again on a Steinway S today. The client wasn't present when I was done. Sounded great to me.

    The 12ths seem pure, though I admit I don't know any tests to verify it. Give it a try and see if it works for you.

    FWIW.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego

    PS: If you haven't heard of Jim Coleman's perfect 5th temperament, he suggests adding 1.5 to the "A" inharmonicity measurement. The result is a perfect 5th through the piano. He also adds 1.5 cents to all the notes past C5.




  • 11.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Posted 08-01-2017 22:44
    A test for a P12 is a M6 below the bottom note. E.g., to test C4-G5, play D#3 (E flat really) with each note.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
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  • 12.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-20-2017 13:15
    Kent --

    I attended the first of your two period class in St Louis. I was quite amazed at how wonderful the pianos sounded that had received this pure 12th temperament. Later, I overheard a couple of techs talking about how difficult, in practice, this tuning is to maintain once the piano has been tuned to pure 12th's. Their argument was that because the piano is now so clean sounding that normal drift in unison's, etc., would become much more apparent, or noticeable, much more quickly in a pure 12th's tuning, requiring more frequent tuning's to maintain. Drift that would otherwise be more-or-less hidden in an everyday equal temperament tuning would no longer be able to hide as long. Since I have no pure 12th experience beyond your class, I would like your opinion on this.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Posted 07-20-2017 13:40
    I don't have the expertise that Kent has, but, as an OnlyPure user, I've found the opposite to be true. It creates a very "forgiving" tuning. Also, the same mechanics are used to manipulate the pins so, depending on the expertise of the tuner, I don't see why a pure 12th tuning wouldn't last as long as another tuning. Sounds a bit like "sour grapes" talk...

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Posted 07-20-2017 14:30
    By similar logic we might argue that a tuning with pure unisons will make the first to slip more obvious.
    Thus, a honky tonk tuning is the longest lasting! Yes, I've seen some of those last for 40 years and more!

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-20-2017 15:28
    "Thus, a honky tonk tuning is the longest lasting! Yes, I've seen some of those last for 40 years and more!"

    Can't argue with that. True!


    ------------------------------
    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-21-2017 01:27
    Don't dis a good 40 year old honky tonk tuning. It is wonderfully unique. There is no way you could create a similar tuning that would sound like it arrived there naturally. 

    For example:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYIeQ_caCQE 

    The sound of that old thrift shop piano is just wonderful. 

    Wanna take it a step further? Check out Ross Bolleter's music. Bolleter was co-founder of the World Association for Ruined Piano Studies which, unfortunately, no longer exists. 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Bolleter 

    I accept the possibility that I am probably the only person here that will appreciate any of this. But, ya never know. That said, I'm looking forward to trying out pure 12th tuning for myself. So far, I really like, and appreciate, what I have heard as examples.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-20-2017 14:39
    Scott Kerns has it exactly correct. Pure 12th ET can be forgiving. Remember, in pure 12th, the 12ths can drift either way and still be sort of clean on either the wide or narrow side. But this is even more true of 5ths and octaves; drift one way and 5ths get clean, drift the other way and they move toward traditional 2-cent 5ths. The numbers are the same for octaves since 5ths and octaves are tempered by the same amount (1 1/4 cents) in pure 12th ET. 

    There is nothing sitting on the edge in pure 12th ET ready to jump over to unacceptable. Pure 5th ET might be on the edge; well temperaments might have intervals on the edge, but pure 12th ET not so much.

    ------------------------------
    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-21-2017 00:46
    Thanks for this reply, Kent. That is the experienced reply I was hoping for.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 19.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2017 15:35
    Hello Kent,

    Reading your series, I was wondering what the affects of different styles of ET are on short scaled pianos?

    In this thread and your articles, you've already established that P12th ET covers the Pythagorean comma quite nicely. And, other styles of ET are also availabile to distribute the comma in other ways. My question is, how does the short scaling of some pianos affect the ability of the P12th style ET to mask the Pythagorean comma?

    It's no secret that spinets are messed up in their scaling. So I suppose this is more of an "experience only" question, whether tuning such pianos with P12th ET actually helps or not? Or, given the same compromises are applied to each tuning, would traditional Pure Octave style tunings generally sound better on short scaled pianos?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Posted 10-17-2017 18:23
    Benjamin - I know Kent will give you a better answer than mine, but as an OnlyPure user I can attest that it sounds fabulous on spinets. At least, as fabulous as a spinet can sound...

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2017 18:27
    This is a very interesting question. It has been only a few short months that users of OnlyPure and Verituner have been able to tune the various widths of equal temperament.

    I myself have only been able to tune these ET widths a very few months longer than every other Verituner user, and I actually spent most of that time assuming that my Verituner styles wouldn't work right!

    OK, they do appear to work, and so now everyone has the same ability as me to work on an answer to this question, "What widths sound best where?"

    I make a statement in one of my upcoming articles that I believe that choice of ET width can proceed independently of inharmonicity. And I find that is mostly so.

    But still, individual techs may develop preferences. I have heard for example that some think pure 12th ET is too wide for low inharmonicity pianos, like some Yamahas. Perhaps pure 19th would be better there.

    A few have found the (Rhodes) 2-cent-expanded-octave ET to be pleasing, and I am eager to try that tuning on a high inharmonicity piano, like a spinet. I have demonstrated that pure 12th ET can "tame the wild spinet" but other widths are still worth trying.

    With regard to pure octave ET, I do think this would be a good base from which to tune a well-temperament or one of the other historical temperaments. However, I have found pure octave ET "less than pleasing" on spinets.


    ------------------------------
    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2017 16:16
    The major challenge with short scaled pianos, or any size piano for that matter, is the evenness of the scaling with respect to inharmonicity. High inharmonicity per se isn't really a problem. The problem is when there are sudden jumps from relatively low inharmonicity to very high iH. This is greatest, almost always, at the point where wound strings and plain wire meet, but may also be problematic between wound strings of the treble bridge and those of the bass, as well as breaks caused by plate struts, especially where the treble bridge (and notching) continues in a more or less straight line across those breaks.

    For pianos with big jumps - and Baldwin 243 (Hamilton studio) and Acrosonic, Wurlitzer, Kimball, and Aeolian products come immediately to mind - there is no magic bullet. Because the partial ladders are very far out of sync, any octave between notes of the lowest several notes of plain wires and notes an octave above and below, cannot be tuned to sound even close to clean. This is exactly the same as trying to tune two badly matched bass strings in a bichord. No compromise actually sounds good. (True of other intervals as well, but no need to muddy the waters).

    By contrast, on pianos scaled with minimal jumps, like Yamaha U-1 and P22, there is simply no noticeable problem. The issues are minimized.

    I expect Kent will get into iH in subsequent articles, but the question that I would pose is how to choose which 12th, or 19th, or whatever interval to divide into ET. For instance, on a Baldwin 243, the difference between any of those intervals with the lowest plain wire as the bottom not, and the same with the top wound string as the bottom note, is enormous. It can easily be 10-20¢ for the 19th. A compromise must be reached. How do you go about that?

    I am willing to wait for the future articles to come out to read the answer, but I do think this is the most fundamental question to ask when you start applying the theory to practice. I think Kent's notions are spot on, but we still have to decide how to cross those arroyos and cañones (as we call them where I live - those gaps that can seem like chasms).

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-20-2017 08:53
    "I expect Kent will get into iH in subsequent articles, but the question that I would pose is how to choose which 12th, or 19th, or whatever interval to divide into ET. For instance, on a Baldwin 243, the difference between any of those intervals with the lowest plain wire as the bottom not, and the same with the top wound string as the bottom note, is enormous. It can easily be 10-20¢ for the 19th. A compromise must be reached. How do you go about that?"

    Fred, I have a couple articles upcoming on inharmonicity, but I am not certain they explicitly answer this question in exactly the way you asked it.

    Gross discontinuity in amounts of inharmonicity, as in scaling breaks, differ from the rest of the piano only in degree, not in the type of problem. In other words, scale breaks present exactly the same problem as the rest of the piano, just worse. Gross scaling problems, then, are dealt with in exactly the same way as small scaling problems: with a multi-interval approach.

    There was a serendipitous, unexpected opportunity to test this proposition when I was formulating the style files for use with Verituner. I imposed rules upon the making of these files: no subjective tweaks were to be allowed, only unaltered math would be allowed; all of the files for the different widths would be 
    identical, differing only in the beat rates associated with each width of ET. (Different styles were made for different piano types for pure 12th ET, but the differences affected only the low bass and high treble, dealing not with scaling breaks, but rather in general with relative trends in inharmonicity.)

    The style files, in effect, ask Verituner to coldly evaluate, for example, "How close to pure can the 12th be tuned while at the same time expanding the octave by 1.23 cents and the double-octave by 2.47 cents?" Any inharmonicity at all will make it impossible to tune all three of those intervals to the target amounts. But this unemotional approach to tuning compromise works well. Very well in many instances.

    So, to answer your question, I would not choose any one interval in isolation, but choose "opposing" intervals instead, being aware of how they affect each other, so as to make a best-fit compromise, even when that "best fit" isn't very close for either interval. This lets us bring the same skills to every piano; the tuning will be affected by the quality of the scale, but our work can be just as skilled on any piano.


    ------------------------------
    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: 21st Century Tuning Style

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2017 22:02
    Back in 2008, after the Anaheim Convention, I became a Only Pure user. I felt it was the only software on the market that closely matched how I like to tune aurally without having to twist this and that with the software to make it work. The Only Pure was: turn it on, and go.

    I have used it on all kinds of scales..from the Wurlitzer Spinet and the Acrosonic to the Steinway D, Yamaha CFlll, Fazioli and Bösendorfer. They all sound fabulous.

    After I started working with the software, I emailed Kent to ask him if he felt that the pianos with Only Pure stayed in tune longer and with less 'seasonal drift' than other methods. At the time he didn't think that was the case. After this last bit of research on his part, that claims that even with some drift the 5ths and octaves are still in a good place, my ear is not deceiving me.

    Presently in my care are 3 Steinway D,s,  SnS B, and a Yamaha C7 that are equipped with Only Pure that will see their fair share of real players coming in to perform on them. I won't name names..only that you all have heard of most of them. They not only are not complaining, but a few of them are commenting that the piano sounds 'alive' and 'brilliant without being strident or harsh'. Those are not my words. 

    I will also say that from A6 to C8, I will tune those notes 2c flat. The software brings those notes to a place that, while never having a complaint in that section, my ear wants to hear this section not as 'sharp' as the software brings it. Other than that, and there's no harm tuning that section without the deviation, this software is as simple as it gets, and the results are keeping artists from around the world happy...and Aunt Millie's Acro never sounded better too.


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    -Phil Bondi
    ------------------------------