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Baffled by broken bass beckets!

  • 1.  Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Member
    Posted 06-23-2017 22:12
    Greetings all : )

    I'm seeking advice on a repinning job please. I'm replacing tuning pins in a Kawaii grand GS-50 that I'm told is around 30 years old. 

    Some of the 2/0 are loose and I'm replacing them with 3/0 pins and it's working out fine except for one thing......

    The beckets in the bass section are breaking off during the removal of the 2/0 pin and I'm really struggling to remake the becket. 

    They're breaking right at the 90 degree bend and I have plenty of string left to work with but despite that I'm having a heck of a time with remaking a becket that bends at a sharp enough angle to readily enter the tuning pin. 

    My problem ( I think... ) is that I need a way to create a sharp 90 degree bend in the string where the becket enters the tuning pin. This is proving to be a difficult task. 

    The rest of the pinning job is going really well, the tenor and treble sections are looking good and have tight, neat coils, I don't want the bass section to look like it was done by drunken monkeys!

    I'm curious if anyone has solved this issue for themselves and if you could share your wisdom I'd be most grateful. 

    Thank you!

    ------------------------------
    Sean Stafford
    Endicott NY
    607-239-4643
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2017 22:52
    Sean

    One thing that might help is if you would be to straighten out the coil.  Put the coil on a pin outside the piano, and pull, This will straighten out the coil. Then put the string on the pin, and recoil it on the pin, and drive the pin home. If you want, with the string in coiled, you can take your pliers and straighten out just the last 1/2" of the wire, so that it's easier to put in in the becket hole.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2017 23:21
    Had the same thing happen to me today. Straightened out the wire, used a dummy pin and coiler to remake the becket and coils. Removed wire from dummy pin, put on old/new pin, tighten. Done. Trying to remake a 90 deg. bend on an old coil is tough. Too much time spent.
    If you don't have a coiler, get one, and make a dummy pin to use with it. You can use a hacksaw to cut a groove into the tip of the pin that intersects the becket hole. When you remove the wire from the pin, it doesn't have to be pried out as far, and it will slide into the kerf (that you just cut), off the pin. I made my cut at 45 deg to the axis of the pin, but I've heard others cut it on axis with the pin. The wire just slides off easily, and you have just a little spring left on the becket wire so that it will drop into the hole on the (real) pin. Maybe a little hard to describe, but if you understand this, you'll have a much easier time replacing wire on old tuning pins. If you back out the pin 3 turns and just put the wire in the becket hole and turn it back in, your tuning pin will erode the hole and be fairly loose again. Using a dummy pin, just back off the old pin 1 full turn, then insert the newly made coil. The pin does get just a tad looser, but not much.
    Good luck,
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego




  • 4.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Posted 06-24-2017 06:11
    A dummy pin can be made by cutting off a tuning pin 8-10 mm below the hole. Cut a slot up into the hole with a hacksaw or Dremel Tool wheel.
    I keep this pin permanently jammed in a string crank, I have another crank for stringing with new pins.


    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-27-2017 14:45
    Paul wrote: "If you don't have a coil maker, get one, or make one..."

    Making one is out of the question for me. Where could I get one?

    I admit, this is a new technique for me. I was taught to back the pin out 3-4 turns and restring from there. Now that I think about it, this method would make less wear on the pin block. That's what I need now, seeing the piano that I'll work on has loose, jumpy pins. Oy, that's gonna be fun ...

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Posted 06-27-2017 20:36
    Before you buy tools, consider getting the PACE lesson books and/or the Guide to Field Repairs from the PTG Store.
    Many of us have replaced strings for years using a dummy tuning pin or a short brass rod with a hole drilled in it.
    When you have good technique you will do good work with or without fancy tools.
    Understanding materials comes first.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-27-2017 22:01
    Hi Ben:

    Schaffpiano.com:

    #273 Coil Maker
    #109 Pin Crank and Handle
    #108 Tuning Pin Setter (if you need to hammer the pin deeper to make it level with the others). Maybe you have this already.

    You asked, so this is my answer.

    Good luck,
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego

    PS: The "Fun" part is optional. The more "fun" you have, the harder it is.


    Paul wrote: "If you don't have a coil maker, get one, or make one..."

    Making one is out of the question for me. Where could I get one?

    I admit, this is a new technique for me. I was taught to back the pin out 3-4 turns and restring from there. Now that I think about it, this method would make less wear on the pin block. That's what I need now, seeing the piano that I'll work on has loose, jumpy pins. Oy, that's gonna be fun ...

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net





  • 8.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2017 23:23
    Breaking beckets on old bass wire is usual, not unusual. It's actually better to cut them off and make new anyway. They are prone to break.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego




  • 9.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Posted 06-24-2017 09:41
    Paul wrote:
    "It's actually better to cut them off and make new anyway."

    Just trying to follow here - looking for some clarification Paul, as I have run into this before also. It is actually better to cut what off? The old becket? The old coil? The old string?

    And then make a new what?

    I can only imagine that you are speaking of just the becket - otherwise, your string will be getting very short!

    Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-24-2017 10:33
    Hi Terry:
    What I meant was the piece of wire that was inside the tuning pin. The 90 deg. bend weakens the wire. Ed Sutton has a suggestion to avoid removing that piece of wire or at least not stressing it. But, just like any wire that's been bent once, bending it a second time risks breaking it. Especially if it is old wire and possibly brittle. So, yeah, you might not get three coils on the pin after that.
    YMMV.
    Paul McCloud


    Post New Message Re: Baffled by broken bass beckets!
    Reply to Group Reply to Sender
    Terrence Farrell Jun 24, 2017 9:41 AM
    Terrence Farrell
    Paul wrote:
    "It's actually better to cut them off and make new anyway."

    Just trying to follow here - looking for some clarification Paul, as I have run into this before also. It is actually better to cut what off? The old becket? The old coil? The old string?

    And then make a new what?

    I can only imagine that you are speaking of just the becket - otherwise, your string will be getting very short!

    Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505





  • 11.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Posted 06-25-2017 11:23
    Gotcha. Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Posted 06-23-2017 23:30
    This happens if you crank back the pin and let the coil press like a spring against the becket.
    Grab the wire in the speaking length and pull, maintaining tension against the coil while you turn back the pin.
    Once you understand how this works there should be no problem with breaking beckets.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-24-2017 10:01
    Enlarging the hole in the new pin with a drill can also help ease insertion of a slightly bent becket, especially the big low ones.

    Some Asian wire is pretty stiff stuff. Too late now, but I always warn the piano owner ahead of time that this a possible complication in this type of job. MIGHT require a few new strings in the process.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Posted 06-24-2017 13:17
    O.K.., let me offer some thoughts in more detail.
    -The becket bend is the most fragile part of the piano wire, from the moment it is first made. A tap with a becket breaker, or a well-placed screwdriver, will break the becket, but not other places on the coil. 
    -The coil we make is a very strong spring.
    -We don't break the becket when we remove it from a dummy pin because (without realizing it) we release the dummy pin in a way that does not allow the coil spring to create pressure against the becket.
    -When the time comes to back off the string and remove the coil, as the bass strings unwind, the string moves to an angle in the agraffe, becoming trapped.
    -As we continue turning back the pin, pressure builds in the coil/spring as it pushes against the string which is stuck in the agraffe.
    -The pressure is perfectly focused against the sharp bend of the wire against the edge of the becket hole in the pin. This is the weakest place in the string, so it breaks. Especially true of the low bass strings.
    -Therefore, as you back off the tuning pin, grab the bass string in the speaking length and maintain tension so the wire can move through the agraffe and minimize the buildup of tension in the coil/spring.
    - When the coil is loose enough, grab the wire at the becket as you would when transfering a new wire from a dummy pin to the tuning pin, and you will almost never have a wire break at the becket. 
    -[Don't do this, and you are almost certain to have some broken beckets on low bass strings.]

    Having said this, if you do have a string break at the becket...sometimes almost spontaneously in treble strings while tuning...it is possible bend a new becket on the end of the coil.
    One way is to grasp the end of the coil laterally, across the jaws of a small vise grip pliers, just enough to make the becket, and bend a good right angle (actually just slightly acute), which will hold the wire in the hole.
    Then make little squeezes with the pliers to flatten the becket wire as much as possible.
    Now the trick, which can be difficult in small verticals, is to back off the pin about one turn, grasp the wire at the coil side of the becket bend, slip it over the pin, and then with nice little movements, align the wire tip with the hole, then back turn the pin so the hole slips over the wire. Then seat the wire in the hole and begin turning the pin to tighten the coil. This can take several careful nudging movements of the pin and the wire. It is important to do this in a way that does not create any secondary bends in the wire. You must get the right angle bend to grab against the edge of the hole.
    Of course, meanwhile, you must be sure the other end is on the hitchpin, through the bridge pins, and not accidentaly crossed under its neighbor! And snug up the coil without crossing the wire on the pin.

    Sorry to go on at such length, but perhaps the detail will help someone. It really can be done quite well...most of the time.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Member
    Posted 06-24-2017 17:42
    I received so much great information and this story now has a happy ending. Not only was I able to remake the broken beckets but I was also able to prevent breaking others. Thanks everyone : )

    ------------------------------
    Sean Stafford
    Endicott NY
    607-239-4643
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Baffled by broken bass beckets!

    Posted 06-24-2017 17:53
    Welcome aboard!

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------