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"repeated notes are often not sounding"

  • 1.  "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2017 07:33
    Hello,

    Steinway B piano in our small recital hall.  Only 1 1/2 years old.  I did a full grand regulation almost a year ago.  Our best piano professor is doing a recital Sunday afternoon and has emailed me saying "repeated notes are often not sounding".  She is from Korea and sometimes there is a little bit of a language barrier, but I am assuming she means when she tries to play rapidly repeated notes, they don't all sound.  I will go in tomorrow after church and tweak what I can for her.  My first thought is checking repetition lever height and that perhaps I need to strengthen the repetition springs, but is there something else that comes to mind that would be something to look for when I will only have an hour or 2 at the most to play with the action?  I'd like to be the hero in this situation.  :-)


    ------------------------------
    David Pritchard
    Liberty University
    Lynchburg VA
    434-841-7735
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2017 07:41
    Oh, I should have also included checking the jack position in the repetition window... 

    ------------------------------
    David Pritchard
    Liberty University
    Lynchburg VA
    434-841-7735
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2017 07:43
    Hi David,

    Check jack position, repetition lever (AKA balancier) height and spring tension, and back checking, for staters. Also look into excessive friction (starting with the hammer flange and key bushings,and the jack center--the usual suspects). 

    Also, a translator could facilitate your understanding of her complaint. I am fortunate to have assistants working in my shop currently who are fluent in Mandarin, Korean, Japanese, German, Italian and Spanish. Believe me, this has come in very handy at times (and is much appreciated by those who's piano playing is more advanced than their proficiency with the English language).

    Best,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2017 07:46
    Make that, "...and back checking, for starters." (What's a "stater" anyway?)

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 01-29-2017 03:28
    Alan - it's someone who 'states' . . . . . ☺    Michael   UK





  • 6.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2017 08:43
    I would suggest that the piano is way over due for a complete regulation. Performance pianos should be regulated way more often than 'almost a year ago'. 

    ------------------------------
    Rick Butler
    Bowie MD
    240 396 7480
    RichardRichardRichardRichardRichard
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2017 08:51
    Hi,

    I recently had a similar intermittent problem that turned out to be tight repetition centers.

    Chris




  • 8.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2017 08:53
    That's interesting, Rick,

    Perhaps once I have the system running smoothly here I could do full regulations more often on the performance pianos.  There would be 3 main "Performance Pianos" at Liberty, and a 4th that would be close to a performance piano.  For those of you on staff at a University full time, how often do you do full regulations of your "performance pianos"?  I am trying to keep 124 pianos in tune and regulated and repaired....  Perhaps I could regulate those 3 or 4 pianos twice a year.  I am assuming a few days per piano...


    ------------------------------
    David Pritchard
    Liberty University
    Lynchburg VA
    434-841-7735
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2017 09:21
    I think it's impossible for one technician to take care of 124 pianos, no matter how organized you were. It's not fair to ask any one person to even attempt such a task. That is a job for at least three technicians. My only point is that a performance piano needs more attention than a regulation that occurred 'almost a year ago'. 

    ------------------------------
    Rick Butler
    Bowie MD
    240 396 7480
    RichardRichardRichardRichardRichard
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Member
    Posted 01-28-2017 08:58
    What is the climate control situation in the performance hall and is it consistent year round ?

    With you limited window of time you need to isolate the problem quickly so it would be a good idea to find out exactly where she is having a problem i.e. in the middle of the piano , all over. Also any specific notes in a piece. Good idea to give her a keyboard layout to mark the notes.

    You may want to look at the holes at the balance pin and the height of the hammers off the rebound felt on the whippens. jack alignment and return under the knuckle and backchecking but I think the key is to zoom in on the problems areas and fix the real
    trouble makers first.

    Two hours with a vague description may not give you time. If it there is a language barrier the translation suggestion may help if someone on campus in the language dept can be a resource. Otherwise give her a keyboard layout. I have one I can send you.

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Member
    Posted 01-28-2017 09:04
    Another place to look (ask me how I know) is too loose pinning on the balancier (rep lever) the jack pinning can also be to tight.

    I had an MD here that plays lots of classical pieces and his Pramberger kept having repetition problems . Some of the jacks had tight pinning but several of the hammers in the bass had rep levers with only 1 gram on the spring tension gauge.

    Good luck.. let us know how it turns out. Worse case swap out pianos.

    PS you may need to skip church services

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 01-28-2017 10:00
    Blame the piano. And I didn't add ㅋㅋㅋ

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 01-28-2017 11:09
    I've got a four year old B with a very similar sounding problem that has been really tricky to nail down. The only way I've been able to replicate the problem is using very fast repetition with hard blows. The affected notes will eventually fail with the shank resting on the rest felt while the repetition lever is completely compressed and unable to lift the shank to reset the jack. Just sort of binds up there, although everything looks perfectly free to move with all the usual regulation points optimized.

    I'm pretty sure this has to do with the rest felt being too low in relation to shanks with the blow distance that seems to make sense for the rest of the regulation. I have yet to completely solve the problem, which I think will involve thicker rest felt. I improved it by increasing the blow distance (lowering the hammers) until I had barley enough after touch, but it makes me nervous! The key dip is right where I'd like it to stay. I've heard of this happening, but never had to deal with it before... 

    Good luck! Would love to hear what others have done to fix this!!!

    --
    Scott E. Thile
    Piano - Instrument Technician
    Murray State University





  • 14.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2017 15:13
    Top of my list (in troubleshooting similar complaints) are jack position relative to knuckle (cheating on a rapid repetition), rep lever relative to jack top, and too short a bore distance (leading to shanks being too high off the cushions at rest). The other suggestions are all good ones. For the bore distance problem, I have lightly glued felt to the tops of each cushion - felt that I had torn from cushions of other wippens where the shanks wanted to rest on the cushions.

    I guess it is probably also impossible for someone working 3/4 time to take care of 95 pianos, but I do. It would be great to have a smaller workload, but I find I am able to maintain a reasonably high standard. I try to run through each of two performance pianos between semesters, with a more thorough job over the summer. Most years that is a 2 day job summers, a 1/2 to 1 day job midyear. Then every 3 - 4 years it is more of a 3 day job summers. Most of the time should just be touch up, going through everything and tweaking most as opposed to whole nine yards.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "A mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled." Plutarch













  • 15.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 01-29-2017 03:37
    Did anyone suggest the jack tops binding in the rep. lever hole?    Michael     UK





  • 16.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-29-2017 23:19
    Thanks you to everyone for your great suggestions.

    When I arrived at the piano, I was able to verify that indeed, notes were not repeating well.  I tweaked the jack position and rep lever height, but they were already very close to ideal.  Spring strength was fine as well.  The problem ending up being the back checks.  Most of the hammers were checking between 3/4" to 1".  After regulating the checking, notes repeated just as they should.

    Thanks again!


    ------------------------------
    David Pritchard
    Liberty University
    Lynchburg VA
    434-841-7735
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 01-30-2017 06:38
    High checking adds stress to the hand of the pianist. Yes the Steinway manual throws out half an inch as a spec. The PTG Technical Examination: A Source Book, 5/8. Should 3/4 to an inch be so great an impediment to repetition ? Particularly, @ FF?

    What is she playing?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-30-2017 09:31
    How does it add stress?

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 01-30-2017 10:39
    It adds stress because the force of the pianist holding the key down with their finger to catch the hammer on the back of the key with the backcheck in high checking is different than reducing mass in the hammer and accelerating the rebound of repetition with the mass of the key rather than the force of the finger against a massive hammer. F=MA. What is accelerating the rebound of repetition? The force in the finger of the pianist or the piano itself by adding mass in the key?

    In other words, repetition is an upweight question also...
    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 01-29-2017 03:32
    Dear Colleagues,

    I don't know if this will solve David's problem, the one that started this whole thread. Since David hasn't seen the piano yet, we don't know any of the particulars; with any luck, David, you might be able to make enough improvements to get the piano to repeat adequately. All the best to you tomorrow! I hope it's something easily reproducible and fixable, like sluggish jacks or cheating jacks...

    If I understand Scott Thile's description of his problem, it sounds like the hammer is sinking below the normal hammer line. I encountered this problem about 25 or 30 years ago on new Steinways, model B mostly. It was always in the low tenor, from about F3 on down, perhaps once in a while at the top of the bass section. To replicate the problem, you play the note to put it into check, and then release it very slowly. Hammer shank goes all the way down to the rest felt, below the level of the other hammers. You can't play the note again without first sort of bumping the key around to get the jack under the knuckle. Does this sound familiar, Scott?

    If all the friction points are within spec, esp. jacks not pinned too tightly and adequate friction (5 to 6 grams) on the rep lever, plus no binding at the bushings or balance rail hole, do the following:

    Check the condition of the slot for the repetition spring. If it is grooved or dented, the spring could be getting stuck in there, unable to slide freely. To fix it, burnish the heck out of it with a piece of maple, such as a sharpened hammer shank. Also review the shape of the curve on the end of the rep spring contacting the slot. I had a different, non-Steinway piano with this problem, and the rep springs had a really tight little radius on them. There was only a tiny part of the spring in contact with the slot; hence the spring dug a hole. I took a round-nosed plier and widened the radius to prevent it from digging another hole in the slot. Then lubed it with graphite from a pencil.

    If the slots are fine and/or this doesn't seem to fix the problem, it could be that a smaller diameter rep spring will work better. Sounds counterintuitive, no? When we check this aspect of the regulation, we watch the hammer rise on release. But this doesn't tell us the most important thing, which is whether the jack has reseated itself under the knuckle. It's completely possible that by weakening the spring in order to satisfy the requirement of a slow rise on release to avoid that bump at the front of the key, there won't be enough tension in the spring to move the jack under the knuckle. The slower you need to make the rise on release, the weaker you have to make the spring. Et voila, hammer sinks below the rest of the hammer line and the key will not repeat. A smaller diameter spring allows you to ratchet up the tension to reseat the jack, without getting the annoying side-effects of a hiccup at the key and a bouncing hammer.

    The test for the mismatch problem is easy: assuming this is a problem in the low tenor, take a wippen from higher up in the action that will have a smaller diameter spring. Regulate it and then test it by releasing the key very slowly to see if the hammer sinks down. Torture it a few times. If that fixes it, then you'll need to get some smaller diameter wire rep springs and pin them in. (Or use silk cord, whichever is appropriate.) This can be one of the more tedious tasks we're required to do, but you shouldn't have to do more than an octave's worth.

    Margie Williams
    pnotuner@pacbell.net

    "We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing." (Unknown)




  • 21.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2017 12:43
    Don't forget keyframe bedding.  It can change significantly from season to season and can dramatically affect aftertouch and repetition. And it's relatively easy to check and reset with the lift-and-tap method. 





  • 22.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 01-28-2017 15:15
    Place a finger on a hammer to add resistance to its rise when the key is depressed. Chances are, the jack will trip out or what's called 'cheat'. Adjust the rest button to position the jack a little further under the knuckle. This is done after making sure the rep spring is sufficient as well as the height of the jack in the window.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 01-29-2017 07:57
    If spring tension is low due to low friction in the rep lever and hammer flange, you'll get this problem. Also check the end of the rep spring in the jack, it might be too long and binding on the jack or too short or the bend is not optimum.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 01-29-2017 10:09
    There are many great regulation suggestions for your hour or two with it here.

    Beyond that for curiousity sake and our benefit, not the benefit of the pianist, beyond that hour or two, also, for damage control and job security, weigh the hammers on this piano, check action ratio, and then compare that with the pianos that are performing better for her, in practice spaces, or perhaps, performance spaces, her home, what ever accessibility is afforded to you, evaluate what materials are used in the actions, and try to make determinations about nothing to do with regulation, but the way the piano is engineered, in comparison to what is working better for her.

    Stop trying to be a hero, and start trying to be an expert. Is too much upweight in the hammer, not the key?










    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-30-2017 11:15
    When a grand hammer is held in check, it is the friction between the tail and backcheck that hold it in place. The force applied to the key to maintain the check is minimal. When you release the key,  the forces act to raise the key front, and all the pianist has to do is relax the finger and the key will help lift that at well. Very important sensation for a pianist to have. It tells them when the note is available to play again and also lets them move to another key while conserving momentum.

    High checking does not cause problems if the action allows it to be regulated that way. Lower checking compresses the rep spring more and this disturbs soft playing when the springs are adjusted as strong as possible. The stronger spring settings aid repetition markedly when combined with close to string checking.

    ------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-30-2017 18:11
    The different spring compression associated relatively high and low checking has another effect: with lower checking, the additional compression means there is more initial push back when the key is released. This is a complex thing, with the hammer mass acting as an inert body, the rep lever pushing against it, and also pushing down the back of the key via wipp cushion/capstan contact.

    With too high a check, you get a less vigorous push back, and that might actually slow re-set because the key is not moving as fast. You'd need to look at high speed videography to verify that.

    Another side effect is that, while re-set may be higher in the key stroke, it will also be higher in the hammer stroke, with the result that a rapid repetition can well be weaker than the pianist will expect.

    Here I am really referring to getting into the range of less than 1/2" 12 mm. In some cases, due to check angle and tail profile, it is possible to have check at 10 mm, 8 mm, or even less. This might seem ideal for rapid repetition, but I think that in practice, you lose too much in the power of the subsequent blows. And it doesn't feel right at the key, because the bump from check/tail contact becomes less distinct. I aim for 12 - 15 mm, and don't think that closer than that is a good idea.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-30-2017 21:26
    Since the Steinway specs say 1/2" to 5/8", I set the checking at 9/16".  It made a huge difference on that piano, since checking was between 3/4" and 1" through most of the piano.

    David Pritchard
    Liberty University
    434-841-7735

    While many people know me as a world-class piano technician, or a jazz pianist, or a music producer, I am most passionate about my "other" business promoting an ionized water technology from Japan.  Check it out here!










  • 28.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 01-30-2017 21:41
    These are the sources referred to. A 1000 words. Steinway claims 1/2 or less. I got that 2010. The PTG tech guide is older

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-30-2017 21:46
    The pictures show another important aspect of regulating the backchecks. The rake, as it is called, needs to be at the correct angle, and consistent throughout.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-30-2017 23:10
    The newest official Steinway specs I have say “as high as possible.” That’s the official word. Personally, I disagree. I’m not the only one, though I can’t remember who I have talked to about this (a number of people whose judgment I trust). I have set check barely below drop in a couple cases. The tails would clear on the way up, even with heavy resistance on the hammers. I paid close attention to feel, and came to the conclusion that 12 mm is probably as close as I want to go.

    That’s just my take, not something I would argue vociferously about. It was mostly feel, the “lack of definition,” I guess from the time between blow and check being squeezed, and the force/bump being less. It’s something to consider. Tactile feedback is important, from feeling the jack drag across the knuckle, to the feel of keybushings, to the bump of aftertouch - the “right bump."

    A lot of the older 80s/90s Steinways (short tails, high string plane, tail profile not an arc) wouldn’t allow check closer than 18 mm, partly tail length, partly the bump on the tail profile catching on the upswing, together with too high a string plane altering the geometry between the tail (too high off the cushions) and the key. My take is they finally addressed that (changing the tail profile, the check angle, and doing better on string plane consistency), and now are overcompensating. “Wow! we can set check almost so the hammer blocks on the string! Higher is better, right? Stronger rep springs and faster repetition.” The “official word” is a mutable thing, depending who is wielding the pen at the moment. Does any other manufacturer say “as high as possible?” Yet actions are now close to standard, and check can be set higher on many other manufacturers’ pianos.
    Fred Sturm
    fssturm@comcast.net
    www.artoftuning.com
    http://fredsturm.net
    "Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." -Gustav Mahler




  • 31.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-31-2017 11:16
    I worked on piano for an artist playing something with a long section of trilling.  On those notes he wanted to do what he called "playing the bottom of the key".  He wanted the note to repeat immediately, after the key had risen only about 1/16 of in inch.  On those notes I had the checking as high as I could, just below drop.  Fortunately I only had to do that to keys he was using in that way.  This goes along with the previous comment that artists want checking as high as you can get it.  This can't be done with worn backchecks though.

    ------------------------------
    Robert Callaghan
    Reno NV
    775-287-2140
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-31-2017 11:37
    HI all-

    Interesting.  My take on the recommendation "as high as possible", is that it goes back to at least the early 90's when I first it and made sense for all the reasons Fred just articulated.  Perhaps it shouldn't be taken quite as literally today with the subtle improvements we've seen since then regarding geometry and tail length.  Anyway, like I said, that's my take and I agree.  Generally I've gotten away from pushing any detail spec of regulation to it's extreme limit.  

    best,

    Dennis Johnson
    St. Olaf College





  • 33.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-31-2017 11:42
    Fred:

    Have you run across the phrase "catastrophic action failure?" About 10 years ago or so Steinway had problems similar to what this thread is dealing with. That's when they started having extremely loose specs for flange friction and very high checking. The result was that sometimes the hammer would bury in the back check and not repeat at all. Repining flanges and increasing friction helped correct the problems.  Sometimes pulling back checks out a bit also helped. 

    Are we still running into action failure with Steinways? And if checking is as high as drop, why have a repetition lever at all, especially with loose flanges that won't carry enough rep spring tension to push a hammer anyway?

    Richard West





  • 34.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-31-2017 13:22
    Richard,
    "Catastrophic action failure" was used to refer to a kind of lockup of the wippen and hammer assembly, where the shank was now on the cushion in an escaped condition, and wouldn't rise on its own, usually after a hard staccato blow (where the hammer might not have time to touch the check before the key was released). Eric Schandall's opinion was that this was intimately related to having too large a distance between shank at rest and the cushion (pillow), which was quite common, due, as always, to the string plane being too high relative to the keybed. Since the hammer bore distance was spec for a lower string plane, that meant that a normal blow distance would require having the shanks well in excess of 5 mm from the pillow. I had one D that had that problem sporadically, and I glued bits of felt to the tops of the pillows. Problem gone. 

    I think that illustrates the reason we have a rebound cushion for grands: it prevents that locked up state. I suppose that little hook present on many old wippens, limiting the motion of the rep lever, was there for the same purpose. If you replace those hammers with hammers bored to match the geometry, the problem will disappear. It was simply a matter of production specs not being followed carefully enough. I think the string plane height was probably spec-ed to 189 mm or so (I usually measure between 188 and 191), but especially in the 80s and 90s (maybe 70s as well), you would see 195 often enough.

    Concerning ppp trills, high checking may help, but I think close let off, drop and aftertouch are equally important if not more so. They are the inter-related components of "reverse lost motion," the distance the key needs to rise before re-set takes place. With really quiet rapid trilling, keys very close to full dip position, it isn't clear that the hammer even hits the check (it may some of the time). Extremely consistent regulation specs are absolutely essential here, as otherwise it becomes impossible to match the volume of the two notes of the trill. And I'd concentrate on let off, drop and aftertouch here, as well as jack to knuckle.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-31-2017 21:31
    Very high backchecking (close to the strings) reduces the power of repetition, but increases its speed. High backchecking actually makes the action feel "lighter" (some pianists perceive it as faster) because the rep spring is engaged less and it takes less time to bring the hammer back up where the jack can reposition under the knuckle. Personally, I prefer the tradeoff in the favor of speed. I think everyone is going in that direction these days because what's the use of power when you can't get the notes to come out. 

    ------------------------------
    Mario Igrec
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-01-2017 16:28
    I'm not sure I buy the argument of a faster re-set is better in absolute terms. The repeated note must have enough attack volume to be heard. 
    The problem is that the first iteration of the note being repeated will have a certain volume level, and the string is moving. if the second iteration is of a considerably lower magnitude, it is quite possible that not only will the blow not be heard clearly, but the string will be somewhat damped rather than activated again.

    Perhaps more problematic, at least theoretically, is the lack of repetition spring compression with extra high checking. The repetition spring is responsible for giving a major push to the mostly gravity caused return toward rest position. The higher the check, the less spring will be part of the system. Gravity is an acceleration function, starting at zero and gradually building speed. A spring's action at the very beginning can have a major impact on total time spent resetting entirely, or at least so I theorize.

    As I said, "theoretically." That is something I would want to see tested via high speed videography, which would need to have at least two, possibly three synchronized cameras, one covering the hammer and its interaction with check, possibly also showing the knuckle and rep lever interaction (that's where a third camera might come into play), the other showing the front of the key. One thing that would be most interesting to see is exactly what happens in terms of hammer tail/check interaction during rapid repeated notes, at a variety of force levels. Does check actually occur some of the time? Is there sometimes a touch/bounce? Does the tail sometimes miss entirely?

    But more to the point, set the check distance at a variety of values, and watch reset take place, observing the relative speed of key rise as well as action parts interaction.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 02-01-2017 17:02
    It would be interesting to know whether other pianists have a problem with repetition on the same piano with the same regulation.
     
    Laurence Libin





  • 38.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-02-2017 10:52
    Hi Laury,
    It is likely that the same pianist will have problems with repetition in some specific instances, and will not notice any problems whatsoever 99% of the time. And that much of what any individual pianist may offer as feedback could be relative to unknown (to us) instrument(s) with which he or she is familiar. We are arguing/discussing at the fringes of what should be done, mostly (at least of my part) in order to refine our model of what happens and why, how slight differences affect or may affect performance.

    It was interesting to read the article in the recent Journal by a pianist, talking about voicing and una corda, and with the perspective of playing pianos with grooved hammers that was regulated so that the left string would be missed on full shift, and also so that the two strings would match the grooves in full shift. He liked the idea of playing with the various tonal colors made possible in that scenario. Which could raise an entirely new thread, but the reason I bring it up is that it illustrates how pianists are constantly pushing limits, experimenting with what can be done with the piano at hand in the condition at hand. So we need to try to get a handle on what is possible, and how elements mesh with one another, in order to respond to their needs as situations arise. It is a chaotic world we face, and we try to come up with protocols that will satisfy almost all the time, and also have the flexibility and interpretive skills to adapt as needed.

    Also, in this thread we are trying to understand the motivations of Steinway in changing from a spec of 12 - 15 mm (1/2" - 5/8") to the imprecise words "as high as possible," and tease out their meaning. One thing is certain: though Steinway interacts constantly with the best pianists in the world through its technicians, and gets a lot of feedback, the firm doesn't do the kind of meticulous scientific research that Kawai and  perhaps Yamaha do, where they actually do the tweaks and test them (using high speed videography in Kawai's case, I'm not sure about Yamaha), then follow through with pianists, in a controlled manner. Hence, we need to look at what Steinway is saying with a somewhat more skeptical attitude, at least in my opinion.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-01-2017 20:19
    I forgot to include a more practical reason I have for setting a check distance of at least 12 mm (1/2"). Adjusting rep spring tension is done by judging the speed of hammer rise from check, and whether it accelerates enough to be propelled at the top of the stroke (bounces a bit). To do this judgement, in my experience, requires a rise approaching 10 mm. A smaller rise is difficult to impossible to judge.

    So if we regulate to higher check, we will have to de-regulate check to do our periodic evaluation and tweaking of rep spring strength, and then re-regulate check. Not an additional couple steps I find acceptable in my constant search for efficiency. 12 mm check gives about 7 mm rise, which is troublesome but possible to judge. (An alternate theory is that, with high checking, excessively high spring tension is no longer a problem).

    Just one more factor thrown out for consideration. It is another factor that has led me to the preposterously radical notion that check distance should certainly not be less than 12 mm. Of course, that is in keeping with all manufacturers I know of other than Steinway, as well as being a regulation spec range that dates back over 100 years - and 12 mm is minimum, stretching the limits, an all these cases. So I guess maybe i'm not really sticking my neck out all that much.

    Or maybe Steinway is right and everyone else is wrong. :-) 

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 02-01-2017 21:34
    Fred said <Or maybe Steinway is right and everyone else is wrong. :-) 

    Or maybe there is no right or wrong...but rather...there are choices. Each, a compromise based on aesthetic value judgments. You pays your nickel and takes your pick.

    I was very impressed recently, having finished a vintage Bechstein B, where I left the original action, rocker capstans and all. This action, tied to the keys by the rocker capstans, without the sliding friction at the capstan/heel interface, had, what I thought were excellent Schwander whips. The springs on the whips were so well designed. They practically eliminated friction in the spring function...which is, in my own value judgement, an Erard whip's achilles heal.

    I really think that the design of the Erard whip's spring friction points exacerbates the system's limitations and thus defines the compromises we are forced to accept, re this thread. One of the things that impressed me about this tied Schwander action, after I got past the 4 hours each time I set the hammer line, was that both repetition and checking were bullet proof and much easier to define than on any of my Erand whip style actions.

    I have noticed the same thing with Boston Chickering actions. (later Chickerings...1910-ish and on...changed the whips, so I'm not referring to those) Once one gets by the different-ness freak-out on a Boston Chickering, the repetition/checking dance again, is easier to deal with than in an Erard whip action. The Boston Chickerings had a silk spring hung rep spring setup, where, again, the friction and often inconsistent friction within the whip assembly, is significantly reduced in relation to its Erard style cousins.

    Just wondering out loud how much the various frictions we tweak in the repetition/checking dance are really defined by the friction inherent in the Erard style rep spring set up itself.



         


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 41.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-01-2017 23:10
    Fred,

    Here's a theory for you. Maybe checking and spring tension are less about the hammer and more about the key. A slightly lower checking means the key, and wippen will also be lower, closer perhaps to allowing the jack to reset.  The repetition spring can push the key down as it lifts the hammer up. The combination of the spring pushing down with the help of the weight of the hammer as it is forced away from the key may make for better repetition. High checking and weak springs wouldn't accomplish any of that.

    Richard West








  • 42.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 02-02-2017 09:14
    Richard West<High checking and weak springs wouldn't accomplish any of that.

    Unless upweights are already reasonably high instead of artificially lowered

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 43.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-02-2017 09:52
    Could you elaborate on your statement? I'm assuming reasonable upweight, and presuming that artificially lowering upweight is not something to be desired. In recent years it seems to me that the trend has been to improve upweight/downweight parameters and inertia by reducing hammer weight and eliminating leads in the keys. Didn't Steinway learn this lesson with the decision to go with the so-called "accelerated" action? Heavier hammers and lots of lead didn't work.  

    And what role does flexibility in the action contribute to repetition? Keys can be stiff or not; hammer shanks, too. If I want to speculate, I would say that greater stiffness improves the delivery of power to the string, but it may not improve repetition. Are power and repetition in conflict with each other? I don't know the answer to that.

    Richard West







  • 44.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 02-03-2017 08:47
    Upweights in the low to mid 20's require "doing" to accomplish. Mid 20's is often touted as normal especially coming from those who speak metrology. My UW's are in the mid to high 30's...I don't speak metrology, as, in my work, though I produce fast, actions which present adequate resistance, the whole thing is simpler than its made out to be.  Mason's will be in the high UW department as well.

    That's 10 gr differential at the finger contact point on the key, and 10g more or less weight, depending on UW,  to slow or speed the return, or to the change of direction of mementum...no?
     



    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 45.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-03-2017 09:32
    Jim -
    We may have been through some of this in the past, but I'm getting older.
    Not getting into balance weight, but with mid to high 30's upweight, what kind of downweights are you having?

    And this is not clear to me:
    That's 10 gr differential at the finger contact point on the key, and 10g more or less weight, depending on UW, to slow or speed the return, or to the change of direction of mementum...no?
    No.  Momentum, maybe.  Mementum is something else, entirely.
    Tnx


    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 46.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-03-2017 10:55
    I heard from a "reliable source within Steinway" (Ben Gac) that the current spec, in the 2015 edition of the Worldwide handbook, is 1/2" - 5/8" (to be worldwide, though, it should be metric, so 12 - 15 mm). He confirmed what I had speculated, that the "high as possible" was really intended for actions where you couldn't achieve the wide end of the spec due to issues I have mentioned having to do with string height, hammer bore, and action elevation from the keybed. IOW, it was intended only when you couldn't reach 5/8"/15 mm ("Do the best you can.")

    He also said that in fore finishing during the recent past decades, action elevation was simply set to a spec above keybed (which certainly matches my measurements, where shank centerpin is within pretty consistently 145 mm, + or - 1 to 2 occasionally), and then you tried to deal with the string height somehow or other. Now it is set relative to string height, and that is much more consistent than it was for a good while so there isn't much need to vary much. Also check angle is set so that it will be possible to regulate check to at least 7/16", meaning there will be leeway to hit 1/2".

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 47.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 02-03-2017 11:19

    David,

    This is where comparing one or even several parameters, on a list discussion goes south...as in, there are so many unspoken variables that we compare non-equivalencies.

    For instance:

    Last job DW= 64-48 (1-88), UW= mid 30's, friction= low of 7 high of 11.5, most of the bandwidth 8.5-10. Friction not obsessed with, and variable in a larger band than many would think high level functional. Hammer weights- anal attention paid to a smooth .1g progression,  but the progression determined by hammer weights which proved themselves in tonal samples as per the belly, rather than abstract trended curves. Hammer weights not measured as strike weights, but as hammer weights - WNG flex II shanks---meaning shank weights consistent and shank frictions consistent 2.5-4g.

    Leading patterns, nothing past midpoint of the key, and 3 max 1/2" leads inboard of mid-point, in the bass, decreasing quickly  with back-leading commencing by note 55.

    Hammer weights (lead added to the bass for tonal reasons) 11.5(1)-3.4(88), Bacon felt/Ronsen.

    The major design parameter for me is the key proportion, as that proportion is the most advantageous lever in the action, and determines how wide the bandwidth of high functionality the various weight parameters accept.

    Purposely slightly elevated DWs, combined with a maximized long front key lever, allowing minimized lead (the real problem child in my opinion). This action played itself. Adequate resistance but the faster one played the better it got. Comments were on the "organic" nature (accomplished professional client's words) of the action...letoff bump excellent, very clear but minimized and of short duration. Repetition/checking dance, excellent and required no extravagant measures whatsoever.

    These parameters are not "normal", if one takes the definition of normal as indicated by shear tonnage of industry generated literature, and the effectiveness of sales pitches accompanying that literature.

     

    My interest here is in sussing out why the repetition/soft check dance is consistently challenging on some actions and not on others. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the actual design of the rep spring, in my current estimation, is highly suspect. In addition to that, how does the shear inertia built into “normal” performance actions contribute to the difficulty of this challenging dance?
       


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 48.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-04-2017 07:20
    Hi Jim,

    Respectfully I say it's no.   Up Weight is measured without going through let off or engaging the repetition spring.  When a note is sounded the repetition spring is engaged and becomes the major force for key return.   Up weight is not a measure of repetition any more than down weight is a measure of dynamic playing force.   

    David Stanwood


    >Feb 3, 2017 8:47 AM
    >Jim Ialeggio
    >Upweights in the low to mid 20's require "doing" to accomplish. Mid 20's is often touted as normal especially coming from those who speak >metrology. My UW's are in the mid to high 30's...I don't speak metrology, as, in my work, though I produce fast, actions which present >adequate resistance, the whole thing is simpler than its made out to be. Mason's will be in the high UW department as well.

    >That's 10 gr differential at the finger contact point on the key, and 10g more or less weight, depending on UW, to slow or speed the return, or >to the change of direction of mementum...no?

    >Jim Ialeggio


  • 49.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 02-04-2017 10:50
    Hi David,

    yes to what you said, but the yes only a partial yes...thinking out loud...

     <Up Weight is measured without going through let off or engaging the repetition spring.  

    Measurement is a convenient empirical strategy to quantify...ie, we conveniently simplify a model, and eliminate factors which are difficult to quantify, in order to quantify at least part of the event.  Measurement of a limited moment in the full cycle, turns a complex series of interactions into an over simplification of the overall system interactions. The way upweight is measured does not necessarily fully describe whether the keys inertia as an individual component, will be able to stay "in phase" with the whip and its parts. The key/action system is asked to run at high velocity through reversals in direction...each component having greater or lesser resistance to changes in direction and changes in velocity. This means, the tendency for components to become out-of-phase has to be present.

    <When a note is sounded the repetition spring is engaged and becomes the major force for key return.  

    Agree...partially. However, the word "major" tends to exclude other factors. Less direct mechanisms in the interaction are still acting. I think it is optimistic to think the key, which in a "normal" upweight scenario, which by definition includes higher levels of friction, and which, in many of these actions includes substantial front weights, even though it is not actually part of the actual escapement event, is not a serious force in the overall event. Its not involved in the escapement event, but the entire event is not only ruled by the escapement, but in whether the rest of the system agrees to play nice with the whips...at least in my observation.

    I come to this opinion by observation of similar systems which to my mind, by their performance in this repetition/soft check dance, exceed the performance of the Erard setup we mostly deal with...ie the exception if not proving the rule, at least points out problems with the rule. Why does a tied action, ie rocker capstan connected to the whip assemble, meaning key and whip phase enforced mechanically, make the bandwidth where excellent repetition/soft check is easier to achieve and maintain with less fussy-ness in the regulation?

    One answer may be in the internal friction of the whip spring setup, where the Erard setup is really challenged. But as an interactive system, other parameters, such as key/whip phase problems in high velocity, rapid change of direction situations, can reasonably be seen exacerbating inertial discrepancies of the components.
      

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 50.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-04-2017 13:02
    Jim,
    Note that the actual Érard system (as opposed to the adaptation by the Herz factory, that was later mostly copied by Steinway) is a linked system, wippen linked to key. It is friendlier to adjust: no rocker screws, a "turnbuckle" style threaded brass adjustment within the link.

    Part of the difference between linkedand non-linked systems lies in the wipp cushion and its compressibility. There is also the possibility of what Darrel Fandrich calls dynamic lost motion, where the parts at least momentarily lose contact. Does that happen with grands? We don't really know for sure, though it certainly seems likely that any loss of contact would be a very small and short in duration. Still, it could be significant. Certainly many of the high end European grands had linked actions until very recently. They obviously found it made enough difference to go to the extra trouble.

    I'll attach a couple photos of an Érard action showing the linkage.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 51.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 02-05-2017 10:48
    Fred,

    Thanks for the clarification on the Erard/Erard Herz development.   One does wonder how industry standards evolve, and whether, as in a many other sphere's, the settling of a standard has as much to do with winners in the branding wars as it does with function...various parts designs coming along for the ride with whoever wins the branding wars, independent of the individual part's merits or faults. 

    I am interested, having seen the improvements the Boston Chickering whip spring design allows the system, a system which does not employ the linked key/whip part mentioned here, in what an improved spring design, on its own, would gain us on the repetition/soft check dance. 

    I am really appreciative of what WNG has achieved in moving action component designs to a different place, especially with the well functioning hard bushings. But, in this regard, I think they missed an excellent opportunity to rethink this particular issue in the design of their whips. In particular, the design of their whip springs seems to make this issue even a bit more sensitive, with the spring coil floating in space. In this design, the amount of force either side of the spring coming off the coil seem to distribute itself somewhat inconsistently without the coil itself being retrained by an added center pin (Will Truitt's fix)..oh well.     





    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 52.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Posted 02-02-2017 10:40
    Richard-
    Aren't the key and wippen in the same place (bottom of keystroke) regardless of checking height? The jack tip would be higher up along the side of the knuckle, further from resetting, if the hammer is lower in check, so the action is further from resetting than with high checking.

    The rep spring would be more compressed with low checking, but also would have probably been weakened to avoid overly fast rise of hammer, so I'm not sure it would make any difference separating the key and hammer.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 53.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-02-2017 12:45
    Yes, Ed, I stand corrected. 

    Richard







  • 54.  RE: "repeated notes are often not sounding"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-02-2017 11:14
    Richard,
    I don't follow you in your saying 
    A slightly lower checking means the key, and wippen will also be lower
    Richard West,  11 hours ago
    But beyond that, I do agree that we should focus much of our attention on the key, and on the way in which the rep spring interacts with it in various scenarios. We typically focus only on the reset of the jack under the knuckle, Equally or even more important is how rapidly the key moves upward, which will also affect how much of a hammer blow can be given and when. That is, the distance of hammer blow is directly related to how far the key has moved toward rest. And the speed of the key's initial movement is intimately related to the rep spring.

    This spring's action takes place against, not the drop screw, but the knuckle, which is a relatively fixed object during a rapid release of the key. Lower checking will mean that the spring acts longer, and moves the key farther under its influence. The whole system will also move through gravity, but gravity is slow initially (during the first microseconds), so the spring action has an enormous impact (enormous being a bit of hyperbole, but on the level of minutia we are talking about maybe it is justified).

    At least that is how I am looking at it. A small compression of the spring/lowering of the rep lever with a high check will mean a considerably smaller range of spring motion in returning the key, compared to the larger spring compression with a lower check. Hence, a lower check will result in the ability to play a louder repeated note faster.

    This has to be balanced against the amount of time elapsed before the note may be repeated. Higher check means a shorter lapse before repetition is possible, but it is quite possible that it also means more time before a repetition of the desired volume is possible. That is according to my inner modeling, and I would love to see it tested under controlled circumstances.<quotebtn></quotebtn>

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------