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dry erase marks on keycaps?

  • 1.  dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2017 14:14
    Hi, all,

    Does anyone have any advice on how to remove dry-erase marks from plastic keytops? 

    A child used black dry-erase marker on plastic keytops and it won't come off. Our experiments at home on old plastic keytops show that dry erase markers can vary a lot! Some come off with plain water and others (clearly labeled "dry-erase") act more like permanent markers on plastic.

    Any hints? Thanks in advance,

    Kathy

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    Kathy Smith
    Anaheim CA
    714-904-5408
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  • 2.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2017 14:17
    Rats, sorry, didn’t notice the auto-correct changing the subject line from KEY TOPS to KEY CAPS!

    But you know what I mean.

    Kathy




  • 3.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2017 14:20
    Following. 

    Sometimes fingernail polish with acetone will do it (or diluted acetone --CAUTIOUSLY--
    Rubbing alcohol possibly..
    Buff with a small white buffing wheel chucked in a small battery drill with Tripoli--?
    (sand with 400 er 600 grit--then buff?)

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2017 14:36
    Oops--forgot 0000 steel wool-most obvious.

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2017 14:37
    Hi, Kevin,

    And thanks! We thought of acetone too but since it certainly melts keytops (keytop and acetone mixture, for touching up hammer voicing?) we didn’t try it in any form. We assume it will melt off the keytop and require buffing or more advanced techniques. This piano is a Steinway upright in another state so we can’t do the work ourselves. Just trying to help out, in case there’s any easy solution to offer.

    Worst case scenario of course is to replace the keytop eventually, by a local technician, but not much use doing it until small children can’t get near it again!

    Thanks for the ideas, keep ‘em coming!

    Kathy




  • 6.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2017 15:50
    Yeah, I figured it was something like that. Tryin to get the creative "juices flowing" out there...

    A bit of 4 ought steel wool with a dap of Flitz is probably the safest bet..when trying to "talk someone through it". My best guess...
    Also, you/they could try whatever on a scrap key top---?? 🤔

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2017 16:13
    You might try Goof Off. I tried it on a molded keytop blank, and it did dull the shine on the surface, but I was able to bring the shine back with Flitz and a rag. It didn't create any pitting. I started by marking the top with a sharpie, and Goof Off removed that ink (I didn't let it dry, just wanted to do something sort of real life). I wouldn't spray it on the top, better to spray on a rag and then use the rag on the top. I also wouldn't leave a pool on the surface for an extended period - just caution, not based on experience.

    I would expect results to vary with the actual plastic of the keytop. The label says not to use it on acrylic. I don't think most keytops use acrylic, but I could be wrong.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2017 16:17
    There is a cleaner made for cleaning dry erase white boards. I don't know what the active ingredient is but it may be worth looking into!

    Chris




  • 9.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2017 17:04
    Hello, all,

    What a lot of good ideas! We have tried most of them now, and here’s what we found:

    The biggest lesson is that every case could be different, depending on the plastic keytop material and the marker type. We tried several brands of Dry-Erase markers we had around the house, and then after reading Fred’s post, also Magic Marker or Sharpie. As I said earlier, the “right” kind of Dry Erase marker came off with a swipe of plain water. On the stubborn marks, we had already tried several kinds of alcohol, Windex, soap and water, and naphtha (which is no longer available in California, so we tried both naphtha we had on hand plus its new substitute),

    We tried many products, and everything that worked either dulled or mildly scratched the shiny surface, so buffing will be required.

    After thinking about Kevin’s post, I said “What the heck? It’s just a spare keytop.” So I tried a quick swipe of pure acetone, and it worked instantly. I was surprised how little it melted the surface, I guess it just didn’t have time. The surface only had minor dulling, and we buffed it back to a shine with toothpaste on a rag. I’ll check later to see if any acetone effects continue, but it seems to be done. I know that fingernail polish remover is acetone, but it also has added oils, fragrance and color, so I don’t know how it would work relative to pure acetone.

    We tried the Mr. Clean magic eraser (foam bar) and it worked too. It left just a little duller, more abraded spot, and was slightly harder to buff back to a shine.

    The Goof-Off also worked instantly, as Fred said, on both Dry Erase and Sharpie, and only dulled the surface without pitting. We tried buffing with Flitz on one end of the keytop and toothpaste on the other end. Both worked to bring back a shine. At least toothpaste is readily available almost everywhere you are, maybe in an emergency situation. Its mild abrasive content may vary depending on whether it’s a “whitening” toothpaste!

    Also we tried to remember that we’re working on a shiny perfect new (spare) blank, and the average piano in use will have very slight scratching and normal wear on the keytops. So it may not be too hard to bring the look of the key back to match the others. This particular child put big dots on the keys, not swipes or long marks, so chances are pretty fair for a full recovery. It was on 6 or 8 keys, not the whole set. Whew!

    We also thought of the cleaner in spray bottles that we’ve seen for cleaning dry-erase marker boards, but we didn’t have any here. It would be worth a try too.

    Thanks for all the ideas. We learned a lot this morning about keytop materials and markers!

    Kathy




  • 10.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-19-2017 15:02

    Greetings Kathy & the rest of the faithful,..

                    I know I'm chiming in late, but I get this feed at my work email address. Mondays are always an interesting read.

                    We have lots of "whiteboards", so I have a bottle right here for cleaning them. It's called Quartet Boardgear, Extra Strength Marker Board Cleaner. Lists only Trisodium Phosphate. Must wash hands afterward. I recall that stuff is sold in the paint section of hardware stores as "TSP" in powder form.

     

                    Before trying to go buy such stuff, try some Isopropyl Alcohol. Can be had at 70% up to 99%. I was greeted one morning with a Yamaha P22 marked up by red & blue markers on nearly every white key. Having used my 99% stuff to remove Sharpie markings off plastic CD & DVD cases, I tried it on those keys. Immediate removal occurred. After doing a bunch, I found I could still remove a faint residue going over them a second time with a fresh cloth / paper towel. Came out clean, no buffing or worry of losing the shine. I get my 99% at a pharmacy. They only keep an inventory of 2-3 bottles. Yours may need to order some in. Call around. It really does better than the 70% that has that water component. Good luck!

    Alan Hoeckelman, RPT

    SCC Music Tech

    St. Charles Community College

    4601 Mid Rivers Mall Dr.

    Cottleville, MO 63376-2865

    OFFice: 636-922-8548

    Cell: 314-650-5377

     

     






  • 11.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-19-2017 15:15
    Hi, Alan,

    Thanks for the ideas. As I mentioned, it seems there’s a large variation in dry-erase markers, and some come off keytop plastic with only water. Others stained the plastic keytop, and our chain shows all the things we tried, and what worked. We had tried several kinds of alcohol, including isopropyl, and it didn’t work on ours at all. I mentioned several things that did work, and simple buffing with toothpaste brought back the shine in each case.

    After my last post, I did indeed find a spray bottle of actual dry board cleaning fluid - I think they mostly use if at school when stuff has accumulated or dried on too stubbornly. In this case, with my keytop material and this marker, it didn’t do any good at all. I didn’t look to see what it’s made of. So once again, I think there might be a variety of those dry board cleaning solutions.

    You give me another idea though; we do have Trisodium Phosphate in the shop in dry granular form, which we mix with water and use for washing down plates before spraying, etc. If I do any more experiments, maybe I’ll mis up a little and try that too.

    Kathy




  • 12.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Posted 06-19-2017 15:30
    Try Flitz or some other mild polishing compound.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 13.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-19-2017 17:51
    Kathy,

    At my school, there were dry-erase markings on a dry-erase board that would not come off with the appropriate eraser. We did not have any of the cleaner available to us at that time. Someone pointed out that the dry erase marker itself contains some of its solvent, so the "ink" medium will flow onto the board, where it dries. So, we drew over the original markings with a fresh dry-erase marker and immediately erased with the appropriate eraser. Came right off! (This trick requires, of course, that you have the same marker that was used in the first place.)

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-20-2017 09:48

    To all,

     

    This was shared with our students in our Monday morning staff meeting. My partner technician, Rick Baldassin, headed for the supply cabinet, pulled out several key tops and started marking. The game is on. We will try several suggestions over the following week and see what we come up with by next sstaff meeting.






  • 15.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-20-2017 11:22
    Hi, Keith,

    What fun! Have fun with your group project! One of my biggest lessons was that my green dry erase pen marks wiped off with plain water on a rag, but the black one left stubborn stains. Turns out, they are both Expo brand Dry Erase markers! I expect keytop surfaces vary too, with different makers. And maybe a worn key doesn’t respond the same as a shiny new blank?

    All my tests were done after letting the marker dry several minutes. After Fred’s suggestion, I also tested Sharpie and permanent markers. I had very good luck with pure acetone and Goof Off, and just buffed the surface back to a shine with toothpaste or Flitz. My particular brand of dry board cleaning spray didn’t do a thing for a keytop stain.

    I didn’t mean to start such a project, but I guess it is inevitable that kids will use Sharpie and many other types of markers in the future. It will be good to know what to advise, and after you get some clear-cut data it would be good to offer it in the tips section of the Journal for others. Anyone who services in-home or school pianos is especially prone to see this.

    As this mother said afterward, “Any plain white surface is begging for art, to this toddler.”

    Kathy




  • 16.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Posted 06-21-2017 09:49
    Great tip on the 99 percent Isopropyl  alcohol. I found using a dedicated felt mute for rubbing marks of key tops after wetting with a Clorox Wipe removed anything I came up against. The mute adds just enough friction to abrade the mark of the key top without having to polish the key. I'll have to try it with the IA.

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    Douglas Mahard
    Bethlehem CT
    203-266-6688
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  • 17.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-26-2017 12:29

    Report from Brigham Young University.

     

    We used a variety of dry erase and permanent markers on several plastic key tops last week. In our meeting today we were able to rub the dry erase markers off with our fingers and dry cloth. To remove the permanent markers, we colored over them with dry erase markers, then cleaned them with Expo dry erase board cleaner. They cleaned with ease. We didn't have to try anything beyond that.






  • 18.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2017 14:41
    Kathy,

    I had one recently where Mr. Clean magic eraser (slightly damp) removed the stain. But as you say, not all markers are the same.

    I am very wary using anything with acetone in it. Many years ago, we were called to repair deeply pitted keytops. The child had been using finger nail polish before using the piano.

    Several weeks later (after a lot of sanding!), we were called back again. I couldn't be certain if the child was still using the polish OR the acetone reaction with keytops had not been stopped.

    Paul.

    ------------------------------
    Paul Brown, RPT
    Vice President
    Piano Technicians Guild
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Email: paulbrn@telus.net
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2017 15:08
    Kathy

    Acetone and lacquer thinner are related. Both will dissolve plastic. So you need to stay away from that stuff.  

    You might try Naphtha. I've had some success removing stains from keytops.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 20.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-20-2017 10:25
    Once any volatile solvents have evaporated from the material, you can expect no further change. You can use your nose to tell if any is remaining. But you will need to "cleanse" your olfactory organs with some fresh air just prior to using your nose to get an accurate reading.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 21.  RE: dry erase marks on keycaps?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-27-2017 12:32
    One method that has worked for me, that I haven't seen directly mentioned in this discussion is toothpaste and/or Flitz all by itself. I've had good results removing stains from white plastic keytops by just using the toothpaste or Flitz right at the get-go. Fingernail polish, Sharpie marks and other stuff the alcohol wouldn't touch just came right out. No noticeable dulling of the finish that the customer could complain about, either. I had one customer that was having all her students wash their hands before sitting down for their lesson. She was having them use some green colored dish washing liquid. It took a long time for this to happen but eventually the keys started to exhibit a slightly green tint. You had to get the light on them just right to see it, but it was definitely there. White, not colored or gel, toothpaste took it right out.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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