CAUT

Hi Greg,

Mine is not an "official position", but I think a few "before" and "after" photos would be a good thing to provide, as well as an invoice from your vendor (with their price for services obscured). The person who should be providing the "real requirements" answers would be her customs agent (and she better have one!).

Best,

Patrick

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Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 12-13-2016 12:12
From: Gregory Granoff
Subject: ivory questions

Dear List,
Hoping someone our there has some knowledge about this--or at least knows who to ask about it.

Have a client who wants to ship a piano she owns from here, where it is currently in storage, to England, where she now lives.  She has been told that the ivory key tops must be removed before shipping under the new regulations.  This issue is being attended to.

She is asking me now about some kind of "certification" that the piano no longer has ivory key tops once it is back together with new plastic key tops.
 
I frankly don't know what to make of this.  Is this actually necessary?  What about pianos that don't and never had ivory key tops--do they need certification as well?  And who is the authority in this matter?  The vendor who does the actual work of replacement, or an intermediary such as myself, or some worker from a federal agency?

I haven't asked anyone as yet at the local moving and storage where the piano is presently waiting,

but thought if anyone would know, they're bound to be on the CAUT list.

Thanks in advance for any info that you might have!

Regards,
Greg Granoff

Humboldt State University

Hello Greg,

It would seem to me that just a bill for service, dated, of the replacement key tops should suffice. I can’t imagine why a certification is needed once the ivories are removed unless they want to see if the tops are ivorite or some pretend ivory substance.


Original Message------

Dear List,
Hoping someone our there has some knowledge about this--or at least knows who to ask about it.

Have a client who wants to ship a piano she owns from here, where it is currently in storage, to England, where she now lives.  She has been told that the ivory key tops must be removed before shipping under the new regulations.  This issue is being attended to.

She is asking me now about some kind of "certification" that the piano no longer has ivory key tops once it is back together with new plastic key tops.
 
I frankly don't know what to make of this.  Is this actually necessary?  What about pianos that don't and never had ivory key tops--do they need certification as well?  And who is the authority in this matter?  The vendor who does the actual work of replacement, or an intermediary such as myself, or some worker from a federal agency?

I haven't asked anyone as yet at the local moving and storage where the piano is presently waiting,

but thought if anyone would know, they're bound to be on the CAUT list.

Thanks in advance for any info that you might have!

Regards,
Greg Granoff

Humboldt State University

Original Message------

Hello Greg,

It would seem to me that just a bill for service, dated, of the replacement key tops should suffice. I can’t imagine why a certification is needed once the ivories are removed unless they want to see if the tops are ivorite or some pretend ivory substance.

Why include 'before' photos. That it has plastic keytops should be sufficient. Don't complicate things. Ivory is not declared on any documents and will not be present on the piano and should not be mentioned. Not no where, not no how.

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Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 12-14-2016 13:38
From: Gregory Granoff
Subject: ivory questions

Thanks for your input, Andrew.  This makes sense to me, though I'm going to additionally provide some before and after pictures just in case....

Greg

Original Message------

Why include 'before' photos. That it has plastic keytops should be sufficient. Don't complicate things. Ivory is not declared on any documents and will not be present on the piano and should not be mentioned. Not no where, not no how.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
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Even if plastic keytops are mentioned, the crate could be opened up to verify. Make sure if the fronts are ivory, that they are removed and not just buried under plastic.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 12-14-2016 15:29
From: Gregory Granoff
Subject: ivory questions

Much appreciated Jon.  I guess we're operating under the assumption that someone might want to know IF the piano has ivory keys, and might want to open the shipping crate to find out, just in case.  How to avoid that possibility is the thought, I guess.  Maybe it doesn't matter and opening the crate for a look isn't a big deal(?)  I have no experience with this issue.  If pianos are generally known to sometimes have ivory key tops, and it's illegal to ship ivory this way, as I said, isn't someone going to want to know?  And isn't one bringing ivory into the picture tacitly anyway by even mentioning plastic key tops?   So many questions.....:-)

Thanks.

Greg

Original Message------

Even if plastic keytops are mentioned, the crate could be opened up to verify. Make sure if the fronts are ivory, that they are removed and not just buried under plastic.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
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Original Message------

Good advice Jon.  Hadn't thought about the fronts--this is a 1949 Steinway studio sized vertical, so I guess they could be either ivory or plastic.  One thing's for sure--the ivories are in pristine condition.  A real shame to have to remove them.

Greg

I retrieved this CITES application from the Fish & Wildlife site for a piano I'm thinking of sending to Austrailia.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Well, that sure isn’t an easy form to make heads or tails of, for purposes of a piano. I especially like this statement, that you are required to sign:
" I certify to the best of my knowledge and belief that each of the items identified in question 1 was 1) held in
captivity or in a controlled environment on December 28, 1973, or the species listing date, if later; 2) that the
purposes of such holding were not contrary to the purposes of the Act; and 3) that the wildlife was not held in
the course of a commercial activity (if you have questions about this certification statement, please contact the
Division of Management Authority).”

Makes absolutely zero sense to me, relative to a piano. If you should happen to contact the Division of Management Authority and get a non-garbled answer out of them, I’d like to see it.

And if anyone successfully navigates through this quagmire, please let us all know how you filled things out. Having done it once, it doesn’t seem to hard to do again, but it requires knowing what jargon to use where, and it isn’t clear what documentation, if any, you are required to submit along with the application.
Fred Sturm
fssturm@comcast.net
www.artoftuning.com
http://fredsturm.net
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." -Gustav Mahler


Original Message------

I retrieved this CITES application from the Fish & Wildlife site for a piano I'm thinking of sending to Austrailia.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message------

Well, that sure isn’t an easy form to make heads or tails of, for purposes of a piano. I especially like this statement, that you are required to sign:
" I certify to the best of my knowledge and belief that each of the items identified in question 1 was 1) held in
captivity or in a controlled environment on December 28, 1973, or the species listing date, if later; 2) that the
purposes of such holding were not contrary to the purposes of the Act; and 3) that the wildlife was not held in
the course of a commercial activity (if you have questions about this certification statement, please contact the
Division of Management Authority).”

Makes absolutely zero sense to me, relative to a piano. If you should happen to contact the Division of Management Authority and get a non-garbled answer out of them, I’d like to see it.

And if anyone successfully navigates through this quagmire, please let us all know how you filled things out. Having done it once, it doesn’t seem to hard to do again, but it requires knowing what jargon to use where, and it isn’t clear what documentation, if any, you are required to submit along with the application.
Fred Sturm
fssturm@comcast.net
www.artoftuning.com
http://fredsturm.net
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." -Gustav Mahler

Hi all: 

Shawn Bruce from the PTG Home Office here. As some of you know, I spent a lot of time in the last couple years following ivory issues with the new US Fish and Wildlife rules governing ivory in the US. Most of my knowledge is about interstate and intrastate commerce within the US but I did pick up a few nuggets from experts along the way relating to import/export that I hope will prove useful.

1. Use a customs broker. This point was emphasized repeatedly to us by lawyers, US Fish and Wildlife representatives and musical instrument companies that import and export musical instruments in all kind of quantities. As it turns out, agents only inspect a really small quantity of the merchandise that comes through customs. What they do look closely at is the paperwork that accompanies the shipment. Know agents are much less likely to fill out paperwork incorrectly (which triggers inspections) and should be able to provide guidance on whether an item is exportable at all. That leads us into number 2.

2. Don't expect USFW to provide answers to reassure you that you're doing things correctly. This point was emphasized to us by NAMM's attorney who lobbies and works closely with USFW. Their focus isn't on helping you do things right.

3, Ivory is the big issue but don't forget that any exotic woods may also be subject to regulations.

Hope this helps. 
Shawn Bruce

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Shawn Bruce
Marketing Manager
Piano Technicians Guild
Kansas City KS
913-432-9975

Original Message:
Sent: 12-14-2016 19:43
From: Laurence Libin
Subject: ivory questions

AMIS members including Anne Acker and Tom Strange have recent experience navigating this nonsense. You can contact them through the AMIS chatlist, AMIS-L-list@usd.edu.

 

Laurence Libin

 

 

Original Message------

If the keytop change hasn't been done, it might be worthwhile at least investigating the possibility of getting a CITES certificate. With that certificate, the shipping with ivory would be legal. The CITES certificate establishes that the ivory was/is legal, due to when it was originally installed. I don't know how much cost and hassle is involved. If you find out, let us know.

Regards,

Fred Sturm

fssturm@comcast.net

http://fredsturm.net

www.artoftuning.com

"Art is not a mirror held up to reality, but a hammer with which to shape it." Brecht

When I order any kind of piano or piano tech related goods the other way around, that is, from USA  to EU, I declare it through customs using an online form. On the form, I have to enter an explicit negation code, which assures the authorities that there's nothing in the boxes clashing with the Cites regulations. 

If I don't, the goods just hangs in customs, and when the temporary holding time is exceeded, it is returned to sender. I've learned this the hard way, of course  

You wouldn't think that key bushing cloth or a Genck toolcase would require a negation code, but that is actually the case (no pun intended.) All piano-related stuff has to be negated. 

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Patrick Wingren, RPT
Jakobstad, Finland
0035844-5288048

Original Message:
Sent: 12-15-2016 11:50
From: Gregory Granoff
Subject: ivory questions

Fred, Jon, Lawrence, Shawn, et al,

Thanks so much for all the helpful observations, info and thoughts in general.  I have been in touch with Anne Acker, and she also guided me to a CITES certificate and the related info.  It will now be up to the client to fill the form and conduct the red tape end of things--hopefully without too much frustration.  Even though I've had the keys in my possession for a couple days, some hunch made me delay sending them off for re-covering--and what a good thing that was! 

Again, thanks to all who spoke up.  I will post later relaying what happens.

Regards to all,

Greg