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Cracked Plate in Tuning Pin Field

  • 1.  Cracked Plate in Tuning Pin Field

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-24-2017 16:21
    The plate pictured here is a 100-year-old Armstrong petite grand.  The crack has appeared since last year's annual tuning.  The note is C7.  The left edge of the crack is currently .263 mm. higher than the right edge.  It currently only noticeably affects C7.  The "stitching" technique repair seems best applied for cracks in the struts would be problematic for cracks in the tuning pin field.  Any thoughts on prognosis or remedies?  It's an inexpensive instrument but has great sentimental value to the customer.

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    Ron Bergeron, RPT
    Austin, Texas
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  • 2.  RE: Cracked Plate in Tuning Pin Field

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-24-2017 22:22
    Those are excellent detailed photos Ron!

    The crack looks much more substantial when I zoomed in. I put red lines in the image below where I believe the entire crack is. If you wish me to remove the pasted image, just let me know.


    Paul.

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    Paul Brown, RPT
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Email: paulbrn@telus.net
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Cracked Plate in Tuning Pin Field

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-26-2017 16:08
    No, Paul, that's a great help.  I actually thought of coloring it in on the plate itself to make it stand out.  You are exactly right, too, in that it spreads much further than it appears to at first glance.

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    Ron Bergeron, RPT
    Austin, Texas
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Cracked Plate in Tuning Pin Field

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-25-2017 11:21
    Hi Ron.  Paul has highlighted the inevitable.  The crack will eventually find it's way to the stretcher.  In essence all you have holding that area together is the pinblock.  Typically 100 year old pianos had 5 ply pinblocks.  After all these years I'd expect it doesn't have much of it's original strength left.  There's obviously some stresses involved that caused the plate to break.  I'm suspecting some bowing upward in that part of the piano.  Nose bolt nearby?

    As for fixing it  ......  all things must come to their end.  This piano has met that point in it's life.

    IMHO

    Lar

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    Larry Fisher
    Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
    Vancouver WA
    360-256-2999
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Cracked Plate in Tuning Pin Field

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-26-2017 17:33
    Ah, the ongoing debate. Frankly, there are valid points pro and con.

    I have a customer who is a State Supreme Court Judge, with an old
    Brambach that had been in the family over 3 generations. The 2nd
    treble strut was cracked. She had obvious wealth, and although I
    was not keen on restoring this piano, she was pushing for it. So
    I sent here a proposal that was way over what a typical job would
    be and what I was willing to do the job for, after the frank discussions
    already cited. The plate would have been shipped to a repair expert
    such as Stitch n Lock. She wanted to do it even at my cost, but
    the hubby said no.

    I am currently working on a similar issue, but an historic piano;
    a Steinway Style 4 piano with a steel/cast iron hybrid plate from
    the 1870's that after some research turned out to be a one-off
    build/prototype, and was not intended to leave the factory.
    Absolutely stunning piano. Customer is clamped on to this
    piano and doesn't care about cost.

    And then we have others... what to do.It depends
    on the individual circumstances. Mostly I decline
    the job, give them a copy of The Piano Book and
    offer to help find a replacement with tact and
    compassion as needed.







    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Cracked Plate in Tuning Pin Field

    Member
    Posted 02-25-2017 11:46
    To every thing there is a season.  It looks like the time has come to make a pronouncement. There could be a crack in the pinblock too.

     I had a client here who got a "free piano"... he put all types of work into it, cleaned it up, refinished it etc. Called me to tune it but when I looked it over I found a big crack in the plate. It was on a strut and not looking so good. I think someone dropped it or had taken the plate out and overtorqued the nose bolt.. The piano was a Haines I believe.

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Cracked Plate in Tuning Pin Field

    Posted 02-25-2017 20:36
    You client got what he or she didn't pay for.
    You are now the piano coroner. Show them what you learned about the cracked plate and pinblock on this site and then lay your hands on 100 year old Mr. Armstrong and give him the last rites. Don't take their money, they need that to get a better free piano moved to their dwelling and then pay you to evaluate it before they adopt it and then pay you to service it.  They may also need funds to move Mr. Armstrong to the dump or dumpster What your customer now has is a  petite grand piece of furniture on which to place family pictures and plants.

    Bob 

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    Robert Highfield
    Lancaster PA
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Cracked Plate in Tuning Pin Field

    Posted 02-25-2017 21:10

    I'm going to disagree with the comments that the piano should go to the dump. That's the customers desicion and underestimates their emotional attachment to the piano. I would present them the cost for repairs and leave it up to them. 
    I'm currently restoring a JC Fischer 4'8" petite grand. Its cute as heck! And has a pretty good sound for its size.  This restoration is taking place because she learned how to play on this little piano that was her grandmothers.
    If it was me I would be so curious as to why the crack happened, and couldn't wait to dive in to discover the cause.




    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Cracked Plate in Tuning Pin Field

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-25-2017 22:06
    I am somewhat torn on the matter. I agree with Chris that I would love to find out just what brought this about, especially so late in life...very unusual. Yet at the same time I find myself saying that yes, it is probably about time to "retire it".

    In addition, I have been surprised on several occasions at just how much money certain clients are willing to spend to preserve a family item. Now do not get me wrong, this is not about making money, it is about laying out the needs, possibilities, and risks involved, (and obviously the costs) and especially letting them know that it might not actually work. However, if they have confidence in you and are willing to assume the risks, then there is no reason why you should not make your best effort to save the thing (and won't you be the hero if you do!).

    Then again, a frank discussion about this (if you have not already had it) may just cause them to say goodbye and instead of taking it to the dump, find some artsy person who will take it and re-purpose it into something else and then send them a picture or whatever. BTW this specific thing has become bigger lately (re-purposing).  Better yet, if you actually do have someone in your area who will do this, perhaps they could get paid by the owners to make it into something else they could use!

    Just my thoughts on the situation.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Cracked Plate in Tuning Pin Field

    Posted 02-26-2017 00:51
    True that it is not  imperative to dump the piano but the client should know the problem, the solution, the cost and the risk to save it and consider the age of the piano on top of all of that. At 100 who knows what fails next?  As I said it is now furniture but if there is no room to keep it, off it should go. I struggled selling, for a very low amount, my Aunt Mary's Ludwig upright, I had finally gotten in good working condition and now only have pictures of it's excellent fancy cabinet, I had refinished. Especially later when the home, where it went, burnt down a year after I moved it there. It left marks on my antique flooring as I moved it out but a new grand was the replacement. I think Peter has the right approach. It is always sad when I have to tell clients their piano is played out but that happened four times in 2016. That was four times too many. I did find an inexpensive or free replacement for two of the four and the other two clients didn't care or said they would just buy a digital piano if they missed their former pianos.  

    Bob Highfield

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    Robert Highfield
    Lancaster PA
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    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Cracked Plate in Tuning Pin Field

    Member
    Posted 02-26-2017 10:04
    While I can see the need to respect sentimental attachment and to give the client the final say it seems unethical to proceed with repairing this instrument. It looks like the tuning pins are touching the plate and that it may have other issues going on that are not obvious. I do not like to pronounce pianos but sometimes it has to be done. I would be concerned that there could be a catastrophic event when the piano is being transported since a piano under tension is 18 to 20 tons of tension. I am not saying it would happen but what if the piano is on a truck and it hits a hole in the road and gets jarred ? I had a client with a Chickering grand on which the legs had not been attached properly. In the middle of the night it crashed to the floor and the plate exploded.  If it were me I would explain this to the customer and for the safety of all take down the tension to relieve the stress. Sorry but we cant' save them all

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Cracked Plate in Tuning Pin Field

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-27-2017 23:25

    As always, great discussion and good thoughts.  Having weighed all the options, comments, and suggestions, I've decided to see how the crack develops over the next year.  I have the measurements.  Should be interesting to see what happens by 2018 (unless I hear from them before then informing me that the piano is "broken.").



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    Ron Bergeron, RPT
    Austin, Texas
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    Original Message