Pianotech

  • 1.  Steinway Grand Tuning Pin Torques and Heights

    Member
    Posted 03-14-2017 23:52
    This is a followup to the thread I posted re dating a Steinway Grand.

     The piano was in a home here that had not had air conditioning for over a year. Somehow it avoided the ravishes that could have turned it to a rust and mold PSO. A home cleanup service just completed house cleaning and mildew cleanup as well as doing HEPA related work and air dehumidification. I was called to assess the state of the piano . My major concern at this point it the tightness of some of the hammer flanges I tested and rather weird readings I got on swing tests and gram gauge measurements . Perhaps someone can explain why the swing test and gram measurements seem off on the samples I took  .

    My other big concern is why the tuning pins in the mid section up into the high treble are coming out of the block- and the high torque reading taken with a beam inch lb torque wrench. I believe it is the combination of high humidity, 5.0 pins and the string forces as well as soundboard movement at the core of the matter. My theory is that the piano needs to get to a better environment , settle down and then have the tuning pins tapped down to the proper height using a support block . I am concerned that the tech who tunes the piano after it is moved upstate knows this information so that tuning pins are not broken since I have no idea of the actual torque because it is over the capacity of the beam wrench
                                                                                TORQUE  A0 = 60 " lb; A1 = 90 "lb; A2= 90"lb; A3= 95"lb ; A4= 110"lb
                                                                                                  A5= 120" lb ; A6 = 120 +++" lb; A7 = 120 +++ " lb
    Hammer Flanges      Swings   Gram Gauge
     D#2                             1/2         > 10 G
    A3                                4                 1 G
    F6                                1.5               1G
    C7                                1.5               2G

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 2.  RE: Steinway Grand Tuning Pin Torques and Heights

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-15-2017 01:47
    Hi James

    If there is mold or mildew on the premises, there will most certainly be mold in/on the piano in the future. You may not be able to see it yet, but it will most certainly be there. I have seen mold so bad it grew all the way down the threads of the tuning pins into the pinblock. If this is an insurance situation I highly recommend stating plainly and in writing that mold contamination is highly likely, and that remediation for pianos is not possible.

    Regarding the tuning pins, it sounds to me like the instrument was rebuilt, or the guy at the factory had a bad day. I know I've seen some bellymen do the majority of stringing and then come back to tap the pins down and refine the pin height, so distractions may have taken place.

    Regarding your hammer flange concerns, here is what I have experienced in the rebuilding shop and field. I have labeled this as: "Right spec, wrong content."

    Hammer flanges that swing 6 times may have excess friction. Don't believe it? If the nature of the swing is gummy or sluggish feeling, or the hammer comes to a screeching halt, you'll be able to make an improvement by repinning. Sometimes you can reduce the down weight by 10g by reaming the bushing and repinning it to have 6 pendulum-like swings that come gently to rest.

    If you don't have time to repin, simply take a downweight and upweight sample. To know what the friction is in grams, here is your equation:
    (DW-UW) /2 = friction
    For example:
    Downweight = 58
    Upweight = 26
    58-26= 32 /2 = 16
    Friction = 16g

    Anything above 15g is too high, and since most actions play at a 5:1 ratio, the most difference you can make is in the hammer flange friction or in the weight of the hammer.

    I hope this helps.

    And remember. Mold can be poisonous and toxic, so please do be careful, and be careful to warn your clients as well. Having mold appear down the road may leave your client looking for someone to blame.

    Good luck!
    Elizabeth




  • 3.  RE: Steinway Grand Tuning Pin Torques and Heights

    Member
    Posted 03-15-2017 10:00
    I plan to go back with some heavy duty lighting to inspect further for mold and mildew. I have a number of inspection scopes and devices which I can use to look in nooks and crannies as well as under the plate. I am also going to consult with the cleanup company and recommend collecting an air sample from inside the piano. The piano could potentially end up in an assisted living facility in the common room and could exposure people who have weak immune systems so I think it is better to approach this with caution.
    I have seen some very severe mold and mildew in the past in pianos as well as mouse deposits and paris green . One piano here had been treated with powdered sevin to kill borer bugs. That piano had come from Florida. I recommended that the owner get a burn permit and put it in a bonfire....after removing the sevin with a heap vac and using personal protection including a respirator

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 4.  RE: Steinway Grand Tuning Pin Torques and Heights

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-15-2017 11:16
    James -
    You don't really provide enough real information for anyone to make an informed assessment, without asking many more questions.  You said:
    I am concerned that the tech who tunes the piano after it is moved upstate knows this information so that tuning pins are not broken since I have no idea of the actual torque because it is over the capacity of the beam wrench.

    How would you be approaching this if YOU were the one to be working with it, on-going?  You have a piano that appears to have been poorly rebuilt, which has now developed potential mold problems.  If I'm understanding correctly, you have #5/0 pins that were left high to begin with, whose torque is already elevated, and yet you're talking about tapping the pins down to the 'correct height', presumably after the piano "settles down".  Whom are you trying to serve?  current owner? future owner? future technician? yourself?   

    Is the piano rebuildable?  How much money and effort would you, or someone, but into it, before choosing to rebuild?


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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 5.  RE: Steinway Grand Tuning Pin Torques and Heights

    Posted 03-15-2017 12:05
    Ditto Mr. Skolnik.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 6.  RE: Steinway Grand Tuning Pin Torques and Heights

    Member
    Posted 03-15-2017 21:40

     
    The tuning pin height in the bass, tenor and into the middle is lower than the height and coil to plate distance in the top half of the piano. All of the tuning pins I sampled are 5.0 but as I indicated the coil to plate distance and torque readings are high from A4 up.
    I examine each piano I come to and take notes of loose or tight tuning pins high and low pins, coil to plate . It is a good protocol to follow.  I do not know the history of this piano but I do know that it sat in a home that had no ac for over a year. I do not know what the moisture content is at the moment in the pin block and will try some sampling with several moisture meters . The company that is doing house cleaning and moisture extraction has been running equipment for several days but in other rooms of the house.

    Several years ago a Baldwin was brought to this area from Phoenix AZ where it had been for 30  + years. I inspected it the first week it was here and advised the owners to equip it with a full damp chaser, undercover and string cover. they ignored my advice and six months later called me to tune the piano. In a matter of months the piano nearly imploded with tuning pins rising out of the pinblock, strings unwinding from the coils and the bass end actually going down the scale as you played up from A0. I am not making this up. After lots of hard work including getting a full dc installed, having owners better control their ac and tapping pins down the piano was fine. In fact it later moved to Florida was moved 3 times and came back to the area about a year ago.

    I would not do anything to the piano until it has been moved into a better environment . It may require local room dehumidification, a full or at the very least partial damp chaser and lots of tlc. I may or may not be the tech who will work on it  If it is not  me I would want to let the next tech know what I found. Someone made a decision to go with 5.0 tuning pins however the piano is what it is.
    Not every rebuild is a full rebuild or a quality job.. Like the 150 year Steinway I saw two years ago with a Teflon action and plastic mother of pearl keytops. My obligation was to do a thorough inspection and document my findings.

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 7.  RE: Steinway Grand Tuning Pin Torques and Heights

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-16-2017 18:27
    James, 

    You are wise to do nothing until it has been put in a suitable environment for at least 6 months.  But you can be sure that if there was mold or mildew in the house, then it is definitely in the piano, even if it can't be seen right now.

    Elizabeth is correct in that you should protect yourself on this situation IN WRITING making it crystal clear that the instrument has been subjected to environmental abuse and neglect, and that pianos are unique in that they often do not exhibit the full extent of damage immediately. Also, that it is highly likely that it will need  rebuilding including mold remediation. 

    Primary reason is due to the large mass of metal in the piano that causes more condensation than wood.

    You can always back off on that if things turn out better than expected down the road, but at least you have warned them and protected yourself legally by writing a worst case scenario. More important than ever these days when people (especially lawyers) are looking for opportunities.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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