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Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

  • 1.  Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-23-2017 13:55
    Hi all,
    Prior to tuning a 1929 Baldwin G at a church, the music director asked if I could do anything about poor bass string tone.
    When I tuned the piano, I felt that in general the bass section sounded ok, but with one glaring exception: the three lowest bichord tenor strings above the break, which are wound. They really sound thunky. I've heard a couple of suggestions, including weighting the soundboard buttons in the area with washers or installing lead weights into the bridge. But I've also twisted bass strings and ran a loop up and down on other pianos with success. 

    I'd probably try that first, but here's my question: since these three bichords (B2, C2, C#2) are understrung, I can twist them, but I'm not sure how I can run a loop up and down the string. Is there a way to do this?
    Are new strings an option, or will this create to much discontinuity?
    thanks,
    Scott


  • 2.  RE: Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

    Posted 05-23-2017 14:03
    Hi Scott,
    In an ideal world, i'd go with new bass strings, and use riblets as needed to even the break.

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    ChrisChernobieff
    Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
    Lenoir City TN
    865-986-7720
    chrisppff@gmail.com
    www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
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  • 3.  RE: Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-23-2017 14:05
    Scott

    You can release the tension and take the string off the hitch pin. This will allow you to twist the string. You can also take it out from underneath the bass strings, and do the loop thing. It will bend at the agraff. Unless the string is severely rusted or corroded, you should be able to do that without damaging the string. 

    Replacing the strings is also a good idea but then they will sound much different than the other bass strings. So perhaps you can convince him to replace all the bass strings.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 4.  RE: Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

    Posted 05-23-2017 17:55
    First you might check to see if the bridge cap, bridge or a rib is coming unglued.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 5.  RE: Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

    Posted 05-23-2017 18:21
    And also the soundboard itself. More and more I'm seeing separation at the rim joint. In fact, I'm fixing one now. 





  • 6.  RE: Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

    Posted 05-23-2017 19:39
    Stab in the dark,

    This is an area, above the bass break, I find myself most unsatisfied, as a pianist, with the voicing technique of my most famous collegues. So this is an excuse to vent. 

    I am not sure what thunky means and I very well might not be speaking to a voicing problem, but a string problem, reflected in a sharp clang or attack and no sizzle, but dull vibration as sound fazes out. FYI, as a pure tech, don't ignore the possibility of hammer abuse here in general, esp. if a competent pianist mentions it, or using the hammer to create consistency of tone. Probably is the string. However, the experts around here have a remarkable ability to make a piano sound nasal old or new above the bass break, and kill it above the treble break. I am coming to terms as a technician at how versatile hammers are in concealing things and rectifying problems in pianos that are not voicing problems. 

    If that is the problem, you need to build up the hammers above the treble break, and kill them above the bass break as needed, i.e., get hardener out of the crown, and needle crown if necessary, above the bass break.

    I am suspecting "thunky" is a different problem. You do have a responsibility as a piano technician not to try to save people money, and tell them the real problem before trying to save your client money.

    If you don't have to wind the string around the hitch pin, and are installing a single wound bass string, restringing those particular notes and voicing them into shape, I think, is a perfectly respectful lower cost option for your client. Of course you have to protect the soundboard, ghotiing a string under the bass string. The labor will be significantly less cost, assuming the hitch pin is not beneath the bass strings. I am not familiar enough with the Baldwin G to say. 

    Will you lose the client by estimating the cost of replacing all bass strings? Will voicing in replacing the bad ones make you look incompetent? How much money does the church have? 1929? Wouldn't you rather tune something new if they have the money with a warranty? What is the condition of the case, hammers, belly, block, bushings? I got more questions than answers. 

    You can use a scotch brite pad to make the dull old bass bridge strings match the color


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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
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  • 7.  RE: Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

    Member
    Posted 05-23-2017 21:27
    I agree with Chris about replacing all of the bass strings. If you go with just new strings on the 3 notes they will probably sound great but the rest will sound terrible. I worked on a Chas M Stieff parlor grand that had 7 triple unison wound strings after the bass section and all of them sounded dead. Long story short I got the church to invest in all new bass strings made by James Arledge. It was amazing what the strings sounded like. I had tried all types of things on the old strings twisting tying a loop even applying ultrasound to try to break up the dirt in the windings. While it was a lot of work to do on-site the reward was great. PS. you do need to check on the bridge integrity and other issues to make sure other work is not needed. The condition of the hammers are also something to investigate. Finally I would sit down and ask the music director what notes he does not like....

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 8.  RE: Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2017 00:15
    Scott --

    Personally, I frequently balk at asking a customer to pay me for expensive parts, or my going rate to fix something that if I had to pay for it I would think it was too expensive. In situations like the one describe, I first have to accept the fact that if the church had sufficient funds they would not still be trying to keep a '29 Baldwin G alive in the first place. At the same time, I would want to provide good service and do my best to solve their problem in a way that makes them happy without breaking the bank, and in a way that I remain comfortable with what I have to charge to keep myself happy. 

    Step one for me would be to suggest twisting the strings because that's inexpensive and usually solves the problem you describe. And when it works, you wind up being a trusted hero. But I would not immediately twist all of them. Select one string to twist and then see if it makes a sufficient improvement for the customer to pay to have you do all of them. If you find that after twisting the first one the improvement is not worth the effort, THEN you move on to explaining why new strings, or something else, may be their next best option. 

    Of course, extremely worn hammers, along with a number of other things that have already been mentioned here, could also be the problem. But twisting the strings would be my first choice attempt at a solution. Advancing to more expensive after that. My feeling is that if you start out with an inexpensive repair that you can do right then and there, and which has a better chance of working than failing, then if if it doesn't work, and they understand why it doesn't work, they may be more inclined to invest in more expensive options. 

    Also, as far as twisting the strings, I have tried the loop thing but find that just putting that extra half or full twist in the string is usually sufficient to break up the decades of embedded gunk, tighten the wrap, and wake the string back up again. If not, then the string is dead and needs to be replaced anyway.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 9.  RE: Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

    Posted 05-25-2017 03:14
    Not sure if this remedy is possible in this case, but if the individual strings can be removed from their hitch-pin and you can then clamp the hitch-loop with a 'mole-wrench' IF that is possible, then you can roll the dead string around a wine bottle (drink contents first) and roll the bottle up and down as much of the string as is possible. Hoping the strings don't break at the agraffe!      Michael   UK





  • 10.  RE: Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2017 03:10
    Scott,
    I wrote up my "back twisting" technique in the PTJ a few months ago.  I have been using this technique for over 30 years and it works well for me when other techniques don't or are too difficult to apply (as in your case).
    Loosen the string at the tuning pin enough to remove it from the bridge and hitch pin. 
    Using a small pair of Visegrips grasp the hitch pin loop tightly and remove it from the hitch pin, carefully noting how many turns are on the string and in which direction.
    Twist the string in the opposite direction of the winding, that is to loosen the windings from 2 to four full turns.
    If the string had a full turn already turn the string back the exact number of turns you twisted back and reinstall the string on the hitch pin.  If the string was limp, with no twist, turn the string the same number of turns in the direction of the windings (to tighten the windings ) plus one full turn.  In the double wound section only give the string 1/2 extra turn.
    Reinstall the string on the hitch pin and bridge.
    If the two strings of a unison are similar you can use this as a fair test of this technique against any other technique (looping, beating, boiling, cursing, etc.).  I find that this technique works better for me than other treatments.  YMMV
    Two big advantages of this technique are that it is potentially fast and does not require moving the string far away from the hitch pin as in an understrung tenor wound string.  It also will (sometimes) work when strings have already been turned.
    I charge 1/10 the cost of new strings to do this and my customers appreciate it when I can get a nearly new sounding set of strings out of old tubby wires.

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    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
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  • 11.  RE: Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2017 16:15
    Blaine,

    I have used your technique with success. It does work quite well.

    I also 2nd or 3rd or 4th the "check for loose bridge, bridge cap, rib(s), edge" advice. It doesn't take much.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 12.  RE: Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2017 00:36
    Thanks!

    I can't understand why I haven't heard about it before I wrote it up though.

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    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
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  • 13.  RE: Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2017 09:51
    Hi Scott,
     
    Like Peter says, look for a loss of sound transfer at the bridge.  I had a situation where a J hook shaped tenor bridge had a small crack in it.  The grain of the wood didn't provide enough strength at that point and split.  I had to run some dowels across the break to fix it.  Immediately as the drill bit crossed the break/crack I could hear the sound change.  Installing the dowels made for a tremendous improvement in tone. 
     
    I'm not sure what you have on your Baldwin's tenor bridge area but check the area for mechanical/structural failure before you start twisting old strings. 
     
    I've seen where added weight/mass at the tenor bridge changes tone.  In the particular piano I heard it on the tone was somewhat improved but had an odd sound  ......  and odd set of overtones compared to the rest of the piano.  That's a tough area for piano designers to deal with.
     
    Any comments Del?
     
    Lar
     
     





  • 14.  RE: Restoring tone to under strung wound strings

    Posted 05-25-2017 10:11
    Ditto Larry. The bridge might need to be reglued to the panel. That sounds thunky. It will move if this is the case.

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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
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