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soundboard technology

  • 1.  soundboard technology

    Posted 09-23-2017 10:29
      |   view attached
    ​1950 Story & Clark grand Storytone soundboard.

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    Mark Ritchie
    Westerville OH
    614-855-7704
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  • 2.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-23-2017 12:33
    Mark,

    Interesting!  

    What is it? And, how does it sound?  Is there a patent on it where we can learn more about its supposed function? 

    I've never seem this before!

    Pwg


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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-23-2017 17:41
    This is a variant of Charles Frederick Stein's "resonance chamber."
    I maintained a small Stein piano with this device, and heard nothing exceptional.
    Of course I did not hear what it sounded like without the contraption in place.
    <https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/19/57/00/24207be23397ed/US1953544.pdf>

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-23-2017 15:21
    What's the Story(tone)? My guess is that it didn't do much except to dampen the soundboard. It appears that there's a box added on top of the soundboard. I've never seen one, and I'll bet nobody else liked it enough to copy it. Can we say, "Gimmick"? Are there any strings inside to vibrate sympathetically? Maybe there should be.
    Thumbs down on the idea, on the face of it. But, I didn't hear it, so..
    Paul McCloud
    San DIego




  • 5.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-23-2017 21:02
    Extremely unique and interesting, Mark. 
    If I am seeing this correctly the soundboard was routed-out beneath each unison approximately the length of a sharp, very near to the depth of the board, and in concert with the speaking length of the string.

    If this is so, what are your conclusions as to the effectiveness of this approach? Any plus side you could discern given the size and quality of the piano?

    If I am wrongly interpreting the photo, lemme know.

    Mark Potter
    West Jefferson, OH






  • 6.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-23-2017 21:12
    Any imaginary gain from the soundboard gimick, would be negated from the god aweful hammer hanging job.





  • 7.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-24-2017 08:00
      |   view attached
    ​The piano is 5'6". and all original. The box is approx. 44" in length and runs under the treble strings.
    It tapers from 18" to 1" and is 1" tall and 1/4 " below the string. I saw no mechanical
    fasteners so glued to the mahogany soundboard.. The slots decrease in size with the
    string length. A4 speaking length 15" with the center of the slot at 71/2".
    Never saw one before and I think Ed Sutton has it correct. Appears like it would be pretty
    stiff and a bit heavy but I am unsure of the material maybe maple. Sales gimmick may
    be correct or maybe the buyer just liked it.

    ------------------------------
    Mark Ritchie
    Westerville OH
    614-855-7704
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-24-2017 14:26

    During the 19th century, the prevailing belief of musical instrument acoustics was that the soundboard was the primary source of tone production. This was confirmed and advanced by many experts of the time such as Dr. Oscar Paul (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Paul), and Heinrich Welcker Von Gontershausen ( Der Clavier) both of whom wrote treatises, and were acknowledged experts on piano theory and construction. The confirmation of these beliefs, was that throughout the 19th century, thousands upon thousands of soundboard experiments were performed. Every conceivable idea was tried and exhausted over and over:

    • Resonating chambers
    • Radiused ribs
    • Laminated ribs
    • Copper soundboards
    • Iron soundboards
    • Parchment soundboards
    • Pianos with multiple soundboards
    • Hardwood soundboards
    • Ribless soundboards
    • Wood impregnation with chemicals

    Just to name a few. And all were rejected as inferior over time.

    The flaw with these ideas is their basis in an incorrect acoustical theory. Because it's the vibrating strings that produce the tone, the soundboard simply augments the tone. A fact taken for granted today, but was not easily grasped in the 19th century. 

    I think Hansing writings(1893)and influence contributed to standardization of the soundboard design we have today.

    So by the time the Story-Tone came around (after a mere 100 years of experiments), it was going backwards in theory, and most likely just added unnecessary extra cost to the company in producing a piano.




  • 9.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-24-2017 15:35
    Chris,
    Are you suggesting that the most prominent influence on tone quality is the type of material the strings are made from?

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    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-25-2017 00:38
    You wrote:

    <The flaw with these ideas is their basis in an incorrect acoustical theory. Because it's the vibrating strings that produce the tone, the soundboard simply augments the tone. A fact taken for granted today, but was not easily grasped in the 19th century.>

    I think many would argue that the vibrating strings produce the energy and the soundboard produces the tone. An upcoupled vibrating string doesn't have much to offer in terms of tone.  It's not an augmentation, it's a complete transduction.


    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-25-2017 09:06
    Hmm, many would argue that huh?
     I have never seen music wire begin to vibrate on its own. Therefore, I always thought it was the player that produced the energy.
    As far as terminology goes, I use to use the word transducer, but found its not a sufficient enough explaination. It explains that energy transfers, but not what it becomes. Diminished or augmented. So of late I've been adapting the term augmented, a transfer is already implied. 
    Explaining that the soundboard is a transducer came to the fore as a counter argument to amplification. Which is clearly not the case.





  • 12.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-25-2017 09:50
    < I have never seen music wire begin to vibrate on its own. . Therefore, I always thought it was the player that produced the energy.

    Block dampers up on a grand with a live board. Remove yourself physically from the proximity of the piano and sing a tone or play a note on another piano. Listen to the combination of the board and strings, in sympathetic motion, jump into gear. Energy provided by frequency coupling from a distance.


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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-25-2017 10:14
    Jim, I don't know what argument you're making, since you contradicted yourself.
    In your example/demo energy was provided by the human. Provide is not produce.





  • 14.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-25-2017 10:27
    The piano is part of an immensely complex coupled system which includes its environment.
    All the parts are highly interactive, all seeking, as it were, to advance their own preferred modifications of the energy exchange.
    This is especially so in the case of a piano, in which the moment of major energy input (the hammer strike) is relatively brief as compared to, say, the bowing of a violin.
    [It might well be that in a piano with a mahogany plywood soundboard, the "resonance chamber" improves the sound, though probably not for the reasons given in the patent. At least it helps turn the sale!]
    I had an emergency call from a college. They were setting up for the rededication of a restored historic building. Something was wrong: the damper pedal was stuck, and the piano movers couldn't fix it.
    The piano was at the foot of a four story marble spiral staircase, and it sounded very much like a piano with the damper pedal stuck down!

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-25-2017 11:50
    If I may, I feel that the term "augment" is too close to "amplify" to be preferable. May I suggest "distribute"? The vibrational energy concentrated in a small mass of high density (string and bridge) is distributed by the soundboard as sound in a large mass of low density (air).  

    Mark Schecter
     | |   | | |   | |   | | |   | |   | | |_






  • 16.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-25-2017 13:35
    If a soundboard is a transducer are not also the wire, hammer, action and finger?

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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-25-2017 13:54
    We're taking about the transduction of the string's vibrational energy to the soundboard. Of course there's the conversion of mechanical energy to vibrational energy but last I checked fingers have a hard time doing the sinusoidal wave dance.

    What you're hearing is the soundboard driven by the string. The string makes it's own little sound too but it's not very audible.

    I guess technically you're hearing the pressure waves in the air moved by the soundboard (more transduction).On the moon even a vibrating soundboard makes no sound. So if s soundboard vibrates on the moon and there's no one there to here it does it still make sound? The answer is no. 

    Pianos are like life, full of many transductive steps. Life gets teejus don't it?

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-25-2017 14:30
    The most common example of a transducer is the magnet-and-coil-driven speaker, which converts (transduces) electrical energy (which represents vibrations via changing voltage) into mechanical vibrations of the speaker cone, which in turn excites the air. In this sense, it means convert, as one form of energy to another

    When the string vibrates the bridge, which vibrates the board, which vibrates the air, I see no conversion of energy from one form to another - it's all mechanical vibration,  being transmitted directly and without conversion from one part to another. Therefore, I think we need a different term to describe the soundboard's function. I nominate "distribute", and I am interested to hear thoughts pro and con. 

    From Merriam-Webster:
    trans·duce
    \tran(t)s-ˈdüs, tranz-, -ˈdyüs\
    transitive verb
    • 1  : to convert (as energy or a messageinto another form<essentially sense organs transduce physical energy into nervous signal>

    Mark Schecter
     | |   | | |   | |   | | |   | |   | | |_






  • 19.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-25-2017 15:31
    If I may add the fact that, when we rescale a piano, either by changing wire sizes or simply changing wire densities (e.g. Paulello wire alterations) we are doing absolutely nothing to the soundboard, but those wire changes make the soundboard vibrate differently, therefore changing the sound of the piano. This would seem to point the finger in the direction of strings.

    Just a thought. 

    Pwg


    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-25-2017 22:58
    The strings drive the soundboard. So changes to the strings might change how the soundboard is being driven, or the amount of downbeaing and the stiffness or freedom of the soundboard assembly, or the relative amplitude of the partials if you change the scale tensions or diameters... But what you hear is the soundboard moving the air. It's driven by the strings which is driven by the hammer which is driven by the finger and leveraged through the action. The strings make their own sound as well but you don't really hear it.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-25-2017 16:44
    It can also mean to transfer. But it's a little away from the point of whether or not "tone" comes from the string or the board. One could couple the string to a variety of materials or nothing at all and the tonal characteristics will change considerably.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-25-2017 23:45
    Mode energy moving from one source element into another structural element of a complex system is usually described by the physicists of today as "coupling". The mode responses of each element interact with each other over time in "concert" with the inertial properties, degrees of freedom, angular momentums, damping, etc., and are distributed amongst the coupled elements. It all involves defining boundaries and action that occurs within those boundaries. At some point these distinctions we make with our minds are convenient and useful abstracts, because in reality every thing in the universe is coupled to everything else.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 23.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-25-2017 23:47
    And by the way, I have tuned a few of these Storytone absurdities. I would rather have a Kimball La Petite grand over a Storytone.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-27-2017 12:47
    My understanding of the term "coupling" in wave mechanics is that the energy goes back and forth between the two entities, thus coupled makes sense.
    So does the energy go from the soundboard back to the strings?

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    I have a Nuclear Fallout Shelter, and my competitors don't. How silly is that?
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  • 25.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-27-2017 13:58
    I would say yes...board and strings as 2 opposed loaded springs have to drive each other, to some degree, when recovering from the non-zero parts of the wave motion. 


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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-28-2017 00:32
    This should be fairly obvious by hearing the difference between thumping on a soundboard with the dampers on the strings and with the dampers off of the strings.

    Or if you want to hear an even more realistic comparison, find a Yamaha TransAcoustic piano and play a recording of piano music through the piano's soundboard and hear the difference with the dampers on and off.

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    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianos.com
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-28-2017 08:23
    A standard of scientific experimentation is to isolate. I don't think you've met that standard. As the same result can be obtained with sympathetic vibration from a non connected source. 
    All the terms presented so far, highlight the mode energy connection but not how that energy is effected. 
    The mechanics of how that energy goes from barely audible to loud to our ears by the statement " it moves more air" is insufficiently explained in any literature I could find.





  • 28.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-29-2017 01:54
    You wrote:

    <The mechanics of how that energy goes from barely audible to loud to our ears by the statement " it moves more air" is insufficiently explained in any literature I could find.>

    What's the mystery?  Soundboards move more air.

    How do soundboards work?
    Physics Forums - The Fusion of Science and Community remove preview
    How do soundboards work?
    Hello, How do soundboards work? When I strike a tuning fork, I have to put it very close to my ear to hear it, but when I press the non-vibrating part of the fork against the top of my desk, suddenly the fork has enough energy to fill the whole room with the sound.
    View this on Physics Forums - The Fusion of Science and Community >


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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-29-2017 20:18
    Physics envy has not yet resulted in building more beautiful sounding instruments. When are people going to have that discussion?

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    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-30-2017 09:36
    I would argue that it's the materials electro magnetic energy we hear, not air movement.  Recently, NASA has focused on equipment to record electro magnetic energy from outer space. The "sounds" recorded are interesting. But, if we are going to resort to terms such as "mystery" and "physics envy" well I guess that means the conversation has become "uncomfortable".





  • 31.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-30-2017 15:16
    https://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/contents.html

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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-30-2017 16:17
    I am not talking about mystery.  I am talking about centuries of acoustic science that produced repeatable amazing results. It was a science of forms, proportions, intuition, hands on skills and an understanding of the properties of natural materials, that was slowly replaced by modern physics. It was a science none the less just a different kind.

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    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-30-2017 19:34
    Jason-
    I think a more correct description would be craft or practical technology.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-30-2017 21:20
    Ed- In a few hundred years modern physics i guess will just be considered old practical technology too then. Practical technology, in the end, that did more harm than good. Science is constantly changing, because it always fail to explain the universe and must continually be adjusted. 


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    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-30-2017 22:35
    Or you can say it is the success of science in understanding the universe that leads to the discoveries of previously unknown things that need new explanations.
    The study of musical instruments is appropriate for science.
    The building of instruments is another matter. Great makers generally don't reject anything that can help make better instuments. In that sense they are neither idealists or ideologues, but practical opportunists.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-30-2017 20:40
    When I studied several makers of the past that I thought were good designers who made exceptional pianos. A common denominator was their rejection of Hemholtz' theories.
    Yet, today those theories seem to be the basis of modern day acoustics. 
    Very theoretical, useless in practicality. I always leaned to the writings of actual makers, rather than academia. 
    The 5 lectures lack substance in my opinion. Chaldni patterns a waste of time. All the fancy testing equipment get you nowhere compared to hands on experience. 
    All makers had good and bad years, so not sure of the "predictable results" you refer to.






  • 37.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 09-30-2017 21:31
    Chris- agreed. Hemholtz theories and all of modern acoustics to me is misguided. Having good and "bad" years is natural, it is part of what makes us appreciate the good ones. Having all "good" years and mechanically repeatable results ends up sterilizing the work itself. Just not sure why physics envy has come to control the the industry when the great old makers all the way back to the Ruckers family had no knowledge of any of it.....except maybe some of the 19th century piano builders.  The great piano builders of the 19th century built their instruments by combining the old world skills and knowledge with the industrial revolution, not the physics revolution.

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    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-30-2017 22:07
    Current Science is nothing more than the simplest way to explain what we observe. As we observe more, Science changes. That doesn't mean the past science was just flat out wrong, it means it was not as well informed. Humans don't even know if the universe is an infinite or closed set. The human mind likes to observe things and separate the seeing from the observed events. That is a useful fiction. A VERY USEFUL FICTION! Because the human mind is contained within the set of the universe. It can't be separate. As Rummy said, "there are known's, and known unknown's, and unknown unknown's.

    It is human nature to perturb our environment. That is our nature. That is our natural right. But along with rights come responsibilities. A single Human is an absurd creature in the universe. Collectively, we can be the worst criminals and the most sublime creators. I like pianos because they are sublime, when properly configured. And music is an emotional language. Without the proper use of Science, no sublime pianos. Nothing like that can happen by random human action. Humans must use their tools, (and science is a tool), to produce one.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-01-2017 14:17
    And to add to that just because we may not understand the physics (and I'm not sure we don't have a pretty good understanding in the case of soundboards) it doesn't mean that physics isn't at play.  

    Listening to some of this discussion I'm beginning to think I've wandered into the science section of the local health food store.   The science of understanding the piano is infinitely more sophisticated and advanced than anything I'm reading in this discussion. 

    If folks would like to delve into the science more currently (Helmholtz died in 1894--what did people expect???) here's a good place to start, Juliette Chabassier.  If you read French you can read her PhD thesis but otherwise much of her research since is published in English.  Here is a list of her publications.  One of her goals is computer modeling of the piano sound.  The research is quite detailed and explanatory.

    Publications
    Inria remove preview
    Publications
    View this on Inria >



    Just for fun, here's one of her brief 12 second videos illustrating the vertical displacement of a soundboard when a note (C2) is played.  

    pianoC2
    YouTube remove preview
    pianoC2
    Magnified vertical displacement of the soundboard, when note C2 is played.
    View this on YouTube >

    And this one sort of goes along with it.

    Piano Vibrations
    YouTube remove preview
    Piano Vibrations
    vibrations of the string (at the top), of the soundboard (in the horizontal plane), and the propagation of the sound in the surrounding air (in the vertical crossing planes), when the C2 key is played. The string is at the top of the picture.
    View this on YouTube >


    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 10-01-2017 16:30
    I've been following Chabiesser since 2014 reading through her research. I don't agree with some of beginning assumptions. When there is assumptions to start with, thus the problem inherent begins. Reissner-Mindin theory may not so readily apply either in my opinion. Is the goal of research to acquire a PhD, or build a piano? That's the flaw of the research.





  • 41.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-01-2017 17:36
    Well you're not lacking for confidence.

    Most of those articles published are co written and long after her PhD thesis was published. Her goal, it appears, is to understand the physical nature of piano sound so that, among other things, it can be synthesized. I would say her research is not less legitimate because she doesn't happen to be trying to build a piano. This discussion had to do with whether physics can adequately describe what we hear, recall. I'm certainly not in a position to comment on the legitimacy of her assumptions, are you? She strikes me as a pretty legitimate scientist who probably isn't too caught up in the "woo woo" of all this or assumptions without foundation.

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 42.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 10-02-2017 10:16
    If scientists desire to understand the nature of a piano's acoustic behavior, they are better off making one entirely out of carbon fiber or something that is more uniform. But then I guess it would be hard to say whether it was actually a piano.  Is a piano defined by its form and function entirely or partly out of the materials it is made from? Natural materials behave in unexpected ways that current physics can never fully explain or predict. Also, the variables involved in the building of the piano, (not to mention the variations found throughout the materials it is built with), would have to be controlled to an unthinkable extent to really prove, with the kind of certainty expected today, anything. Natural materials can not be controlled to this extent.  Natural implies varation.  This kind of science can often lead people to know more and more about less and less, until they know almost nothing at all about the system as a whole that they intended to study. However, I do find it interesting and useful, because it is testing the limits to our current form of science.

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    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 43.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-02-2017 11:28
    Jason,
    All materials are natural. The universe is an integrated whole and we are inside it. These distinctions in terms are human constructs that come from us exploring our natures.

    I also think your use of the term "prove" is problematic. Science "proves" things by logical constructs that may use deterministic boundaries and/or statistical ones and others I can't remember at the time. Maybe Mr. Sloan can tutor us as he seems well schooled in the various schools of mental constructs employed by researchers.

    I do think the academics who are interested in Piano as a research subject would be better served if they consulted with a select group of piano technicians. But at some level one first has to define what it is you seek a piano to do before researching how it does it. By this I mean define the musical and ergonometric parameters humans expect a piano to provide.

    Is it good enough that it just goes "Plink" reliably when you activate a key? Or does it do what musicians ask of it within the bounds of what pianists are capable of? Or can it still be advanced to do more than has been thought possible before? And, how about how long it can endure being used before it begins to fail expectations?

    ------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------



  • 44.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 10-02-2017 14:39
    Ed- sorry that I didn't clarify.  I realize that everything is natural, as humans have yet to create anything.  We invent and organize. What I mean more specifically when I say natural is related to the way the materials are processed and in what form they are when they are finally used in a piano. This is a topic that is largely neglected, and this is unfortunate, because the way in which materials are processed can have an appreciable effect on their atomic structure which manifests itself in the collective form. One obvious case, that has had the surface scratched, is felt for hammers, and music wire is another important topic that has some very interesting results. But this is an entirely different topic. 

    Much of the current scientific paradigm is focused on isolation, repeatablitily, control, and uniformity. The variation and unpredictability of natural (largely unprocessed) materials is irritating to moderns because they just won't behave in a predictable fashion when closely analyzed. Before physics envy began to seep into the arts and crafts, the craftsman where aware of these extremely unpredictable qualities and learned to use them to their advantage. It is possible that looking at a smattering of great antique pianos would reveal this behavior. Variation, uniqueness, unpredictability, are qualities that some people would argue are what makes things beautiful.

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    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 45.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-02-2017 22:25
    Jason, you have an idiosyncratic definition for "create". Did not Cristofori "create" the first piano? Or did he discover it under a rock one day?

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------



  • 46.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 10-03-2017 11:36
    Ed- Cristofori invented the first piano by organizing "stuff" that had already been created. But now we are getting way off topic and into semantics.  Maybe just PM me if you wish to continue.

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    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 47.  RE: soundboard technology

    Posted 10-03-2017 11:43
      |   view attached
    Here's the "rock" that Cristofori "created" under. I always thought it kind of ironic that the invention of the grand piano was funded by the grand prince.





  • 48.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-03-2017 01:18
    Honestly I don't think it's that much of a crapshoot or that "natural" materials (I assume by that you mean wood) have so much variation, given the same species, that the outcomes are unpredictable.  Of course there is some variation but that may be execution more than material differences.  

    Things like carbon fiber (I wouldn't call that a "natural material" but rather a manufactured material--disagree with Ed a bit there), will have greater consistency and predictability than wood.  But there's more to it than consistency.  The companies making carbon fiber soundboards aren't that thrilled with them (secretly--not enough filtering, too bright sounding) and have begun to add features to make them sound more like (drum roll..................) wood!

    Not really sure where this conversation is going but I think I know where I'm going.  


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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 49.  RE: soundboard technology

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-03-2017 07:53
    "If scientists desire to understand the nature of a piano's acoustic behavior, they are better off making one entirely out of carbon fiber or something that is more uniform. But then I guess it would be hard to say whether it was actually a piano."

    Other musical instruments--including guitars, violins, violas, and cellos--are currently manufactured from carbon fiber.  They do not cease to be those instruments simply because they aren't made of wood.

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    Kent Burnside, RPT
    Franklin TN
    615.430.0653
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