Pianotech

  • 1.  Inharmonicity of woodwinds, brass, and strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-15-2017 21:50
    The discussion about piano tuning and how it relates to intonation of woodwinds, brass, and strings, has been really interesting. Horace Greeley had a lot to say about the discussion based on his immense  knowledge and experience with these instruments and their use in ensembles. 

    One point I would like to clarify is how inharmonicity affects these other instruments. It has been my understanding that these "driven instruments" (as opposed to a freely vibrating string) do not have significant inharmonicity due to the effect of mode-locking which forces the partials to align very closely with their theoretically correct frequencies. I have measured inharmonicity on church organs and found that there was virtually no inharmonicity. My ETD clearly showed that C5 was at 523 hz, C6 was at 1046, C7 2092, and C8 was at 4184. On a piano with minimal stretch C8 will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 4263hz, a differenece of 79hz. 

    A "roughly scientific" experiment on my own trumpet gave the following results. 
    A#4 read 464.75 hz. I used Tunelab to assist me in trying to keep the display as steady as possible (with my limited abilities). 
    I recorded the tone and then played it back and measured partials two and three. I found that the partials came very close to their theoretical frequencies:

    Partial 1: 464.75
    Partial 2: 929.14  (464.75 x 2 = 929.5)
    Partial 3: 1393.52 (464.75 x3 = 1394.25)

    I did the same experiment with my wife's flute and the results were identical. Basically the partials do not exhibit significant inharmonicity. 

    If I understand Horace correctly, what he was really getting at was this: how do actual professionals play in their upper ranges? If a flute, horn, or violin player is in tune at A4, where are they actually landing when playing  A5, A6, or C7 in relationship to an average piano tuning? 

    I spent some time on Youtube looking for examples of high note playing on various instruments and found that their intonation is very inconsistent. One thing I'm looking forward to is talking to more symphony musicians about this topic. I just received a call this afternoon from a retired conductor who is willing to spend some time talking with me on this subject and I'm looking forward to hearing his input. It would also be interesting to get together with some of the first chairs from the local symphony and measure the frequency of their notes in various octaves to see how consistent they are able to be and what their tendencies are. 

    Lastly - Here is an interesting link to a text on orchestra intonation that I found interesting:

    http://faculty.gvsu.edu/duitmanh/home/321links_files/Long%20Intonation.PDF

    ------------------------------
    Ryan Sowers
    Olympia WA
    360-705-4160
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Inharmonicity of woodwinds, brass, and strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-16-2017 00:55
    Interesting subject. After reading your post, and the attached pdf, I am left with a couple of thoughts. Questions and observations mostly. 

    Back in my younger days I was a recording engineer. When a project came in where it was known that a string section would be added to the recording the piano would frequently be tuned to 441. Not so much because it made a difference to the recording but because it kept the string players quiet. After years of this changing the tuning of the piano to satisfy the string players, specifically the violin players, I asked why this was necessary. As it was explained to me, the string players weren't actually asking for a tuning of 441 so much as they were complaining that when the piano was at 440 it sounded flat. At 441 it did not. The piano was, therefore, tuned it to 441 so the string players would no longer complain, (as much), that it was flat. 

    The next question was why did the violinists think the piano was flat when it was tuned to 440? Again, as it was explained to me at the time, by someone who I still believe knew what he was talking about, the violinist is holding the instrument on his shoulder right under his ear. That places the bridge of the instrument right under his ear. When the violinist first starts playing a note the note actually does play a tiny bit sharp until the entire string is in motion. Then it settles down to the pitch to which it was tuned. However, when the violist is complaining that the piano is flat, he is reacting to that first initial attack of that string, which being a bit sharp, makes the piano sound flat. (It's also the reason that once you get everyone happy at 441 the violinists get used it and once again hear the piano as flat and ask for 442. Over the years this continues to climb where it is allowed.) Once you move away from the violin by just a small distance this is no longer noticeable so it's only the violinist that can actually hear this happening. This makes sense to me, but I don't play violin so it could also be a myth.

    Next observation, more recent since I have become a piano tech: My understanding of equal temperament is that it allows the piano to play acceptably in tune in all keys. This is different than actually being in tune in all keys. Also, because the piano is plagued by inharmonicity and, for the most part, the other instruments in an orchestra are not, then it is the orchestras job to stay in tune with each other and the pianos job to be as close as its possible to be. The frequency to which A4 on the piano is tuned, and to which the rest of the orchestra subsequently tunes, is, therefore, the only frequency/note where the piano and any other instrument in the orchestra will actually be in tune with each other. If the orchestra is performing well together, it's going to be the piano that is out of tune with the orchestra, not the other way around. 

    I expect to be told that this is all BS, but I look forward to comments anyway. 

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Inharmonicity of woodwinds, brass, and strings

    Posted 01-17-2017 04:30
    As the Harpsichord and Piano tuner at Glyndebourne I was able to keep in touch with the players in the Orchestras who performed in the Pit. On one occasion I was working with the OAE and asked the Principal Natural Horn players if they would be interested in conducting an experiment relating to intonation on their instruments. They agreed. The experiment involved me recording them playing (individually) a chromatic scale whilst I recorded them on a DAT machine with a view to plotting the frequency of all notes. The OAE was playing at 415Hz for a Mozart production. I still have that DAT tape.

    Violin and Pitch: One of my regular clients played in chamber ensembles and asked that I tune her new Grotrian  Steinweg grand sharp: We evolved an ideal pitch for her: A=440.5Hz. She was happy.

    Now I am fully retired (at 82 are you surprised?) and have to wear hearing aids if I tune. One pair of these hearing aids has a problem amplifying music - particularly pianos - where the received signal has a 'tremolo' effect and is therefore useless for tuning. The Audiologist has managed to reduce this effect to acceptable levels but at the cost of much reduced levels for hearing. That's OK with a piano!
    Michael    UK





  • 4.  RE: Inharmonicity of woodwinds, brass, and strings

    Posted 01-17-2017 10:36

    Next observation, more recent since I have become a piano tech: My understanding of equal temperament is that it allows the piano to play acceptably in tune in all keys. This is different than actually being in tune in all keys. Also, because the piano is plagued by inharmonicity and, for the most part, the other instruments in an orchestra are not, then it is the orchestras job to stay in tune with each other and the pianos job to be as close as its possible to be. The frequency to which A4 on the piano is tuned, and to which the rest of the orchestra subsequently tunes, is, therefore, the only frequency/note where the piano and any other instrument in the orchestra will actually be in tune with each other. If the orchestra is performing well together, it's going to be the piano that is out of tune with the orchestra, not the other way around. <br><br>I expect to be told that this is all BS, but I look forward to comments anyway. 
    Geoff Sykes,  yesterday
    Nah, I don't think it's BS.

    Thankfully, hardly anyone listens as critically to beats and out-of-tune-ness like a good piano tuner does. That perception and skill makes us money, but thankfully most musicians aren't that critical. And audiences aren't that critical. As long as things are fairly close, most people (tuners excepted) can't tell the difference. When an orchestra is mostly in tune, everything sounds great. All the small parts add up to produce a whole part, which is pleasing to the ear. 

    That's my opinion. We could do expensive studies to prove what it really is, but I'm OK with keeping it simple. :-)<quotebtn></quotebtn>

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Inharmonicity of woodwinds, brass, and strings

    Posted 01-18-2017 06:39
    It's the Unisons being out of tune which bothers audiences and players alike - which is why when I tuned Jasbo Browns' Catfish Row on-Stage piano in Porgy and Bess (opening sequence) I made sure the unisons were horribly out - yet basically at A=440 - otherwise the LPO would have complained!! 
    Glyndebourne Festival Opera, all black cast, (excepting the Policeman) LPO in the Pit under Simon Rattle. I did the same for the recording at Abbey Road Studios which was used for the Video and DVD dubbing.    Michael   UK