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Hamburg Steinway grands

  • 1.  Hamburg Steinway grands

    Posted 01-16-2017 16:52
    How many of you take care of a Hamburg Steinway grand at your school? This summer I became the piano technician for a school here in the USA which has a Hamburg Steinway D. I know they differ a bit from the NY S&S in their needs. Maybe it would be helpful if we could discuss this.

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    John D. Chapman RPT University of North Carolina School of the Arts School of Music Piano Technician Winston-Salem, North Carolina chapmanj@uncsa.edu
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  • 2.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Posted 01-17-2017 06:34
    Maybe this isn't what you want, but I own a Hamburger 'A' of 1914. which I have restrung and done a lot of regulation + re-rollering (knuckles?) But it's not a 'D' and now over 100yrs old - so maybe I'm the wrong person to work with you.   Michael   UK





  • 3.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Posted 01-18-2017 06:20
    There's a book by Max Matthias - "STEINWAY SERVICE MANUAL"  published by Verlag Erwin Bochinsky, ISBN 3-923639-15-5 which deals particularly with Hamburg Steinway. As for tools required the only one I found necessary was a long scribe tool to adjust the capstan screw in the key top.  As for the hammers - believe it or not the hammers in my Hamburg 'A' (Nr.164082) are the original from 1914 with the yellow core felt - and still hardly worn. I have used Roger Jolly's method for voicing these - this is a steaming procedure which is very rapid uses a shaped hot iron and a white cloth damped with soft water. Stringing - I didn't agree with one area of the string gauge used for the metals of notes 36,37,38,38 which, in the original were all 17 and a continuation from note 47, so I changed them to 17 1/2 - thus giving a smoother transition. I used Roslau Blues and Gregor Heller spun my new Bass strings on Roslau Blues. It keeps wonderfully in tune. I even tried the Farley/Serkin temperament on it - which was interesting.
    Michael   UK





  • 4.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2017 10:59

    The main difference with respect to servicing is the hammer type.  The Hamburg Renner hammer is a fairly dense, tensioned hammer that requires judicious needle work to keep it balanced.  As opposed to the lacquered hammer of the NY piano, you will need to pay attention to shoulder needling rather than just crown needling as you do with a lacquered hammer.  If you apply NY techniques to the Hamburg hammer it will deteriorate over time (which the NY hammer does).   Take a more holistic approach and carefully assess the hammer at all dynamic levels before you start sticking in needles. 

     

    David Love

    www.davidlovepianos.com

     






  • 5.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Posted 01-17-2017 11:33
    David, do you take care of a Hamburg grand at your school? How old is it? Has it needed new hammers? What other work has been done to it?

    ------------------------------
    John D. Chapman RPT
    University of North Carolina School of the Arts
    School of Music Piano Technician
    Winston-Salem, North Carolina
    336-596-1035
    chapmanj@uncsa.edu
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2017 12:01
    Hi, John,

    I take care of 4 Hamburg D’s and a number of NY D’s at several venues. They are mostly 10 years old or less, a few are up to 15 years old. I agree that the voicing methods are fairly different. I also had some learning to do with the different pedal lyre setup and the belly-mounted sostenuto. I was very practiced at the action-mounted sostenuto but had to do some study and adjustment to solve a subtle problem on one of the Hamburgs. I also had to add some tools to my bag that I didn’t normally carry for NY Steinways. And different treble wire, for replacing any broken strings.

    I’m happy to continue this with you offline, if there doesn’t seem to be too much interest here. I had good help from some Steinway resources, since they are long accustomed to working with both types of hammers (not many resources are fully versed in both kinds). And I recall seeing a helpful video from Steinway on the Hamburg pedal lyre systems, maintenance and such. I’ll see if I can find it available anywhere now. And be sure to get accustomed to checking the large casters annually; the stems inside do unwind a little bit each year and need to be lifted and tightened.

    Kathy




  • 7.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2017 13:30
    Please try to keep this discussion on line.

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 8.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2017 14:14
    Hi David,

    Will do, no problem. I just didn't want to run on if interest was limited. It's up to you all. I happen to be tuning one of those Hamburgs right this minute. I have thought of a couple of more points of difference while I was working, and can add more later when I'm not typing on my phone.

    Kathy

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 9.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2017 17:36
    Kathy -- interest is not limited. For instance, which tools did you put in your kit to deal with Hamburgs?

    A local church here just bought a lovely new Hamburg B, and I have the care and feeding of it. It's the only one in town. Aside from rentals I haven't done anything with Hamburg Steinways.

    Our New York D at OSU has the Hamburg legs with the big casters, about five years old. So, I would raise the piano with the "jack in the box" and then rotate the top of the caster counter-clockwise?

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 10.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2017 20:24
    Hi, Susan,

    Glad to hear from you. I thought of a couple of more points that make care of Hamburgs different from NY Steinways. The main one, aside from the different voicing techniques, is that the Hamburgs are much more sensitive to hammer shape than the NY D’s. This thought first entered my conscious mind well over 25 years ago, during my first of several different weeks in the concert basement at Steinway. I was working with Franz Mohr at the time, but a different concert tech in the basement pointed out a piano that was getting moved out. He said that they desperately wanted to replace hammers since they were so worn, or at least file them. But the artists kept selecting it and they never had a chance. He made the point that he was continually astonished at how much you could voice a NY around worn hammers. Of course in the best of worlds, we always want to file or replace and have an ideal hammer shape. But I have found it to be true, that the NY hammer is very forgiving in that way. I have had several (4) of my NY grands re-strung, and even with the older hammers, it was amazing to me how refreshed and clean the piano sounded. A lot of the voice was being affected by tired wires, so that’s another thing to keep in mind.

    When I first started to work with Hamburgs as well, another concert tech told me exactly what I just mentioned, that the Hamburgs are more sensitive to hammer shape. Both Hamburg and NY are very sensitive to hammer fit to the strings, so I spend a lot of time on that each year at annual maintenance. Once done, both items seem to last well into the season. I just have to do minor hammer filing on the Hamburgs more often to keep the shape nice, but never more than once per year, so far, and very minor.

    When I started to work with the Hamburg D’s, I added different wire to my supplies. I have Mapes for the NY and Roslau for the Hamburgs, I think that suggestion came from someone at Steinway. Be sure to get hold of an old CD case before they’re obsolete. They make ideal cases to carry extra wire in your car or tool case. I have a chart (which I think was made available here, but I can duplicate it) which shows the maximum length of each size wire on any Steinway grand. I carry a double length of each, size marked with painters tape on the wire end, and each coil fits into a slot in the zippered CD case. Very trim and efficient, and when you need it — you really need it!

    I also added a number of metric Allen wrenches to my case, since the pedal lyre and sostenuto system use several. I have a handout from Eric Schandall, from a class a year or two ago, on Hamburg maintenance. If you can’t lay your hands on one, I’ll dig mine out.

    Casters: yes, I didn’t check casters annually in the past, but on one occasion a large caster which seemed perfectly firm with the weight of the piano on it, was clearly swinging in the breeze when the movers tilted the piano. I was shocked, and added it to annual maintenance. The big caster (same on NY, Hamburg, and large Yamaha grands) has a socket up inside the leg which has inner threads up near the top, and the threaded caster stem turns up into it. There’s an outer flange, visible from the floor when you lay down and look up above the wheel, with two slots in it for a spanner.

    I lift each corner of the piano in turn, I use a Jack-in-the-Box from Jansen, but whatever works for you. You can use your fingers to turn the outer flange until it’s sort of tight; you need a tool to snug it further. But even it you don’t get a tool, at least you’ve taken out the extra turns. I have an actual proper spanner tool which I bought from Yamaha, but I also found another tool much cheaper that can be adapted to it with some grinding. I have photos, since I covered this in my “Lifting Stuff” classes in Norfolk and will again in St. Louis. The trick in fitting a tool in between flange and caster is that the space can be quite thin top to bottom, which defines the dimensions of the tool.

    I really enjoy working on these Hamburg pianos. They have given me many fulfilling hours, whether working alone, during selections, or during rehearsals and concerts. Here’s hoping you have as much fun as I have had.




  • 11.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Posted 01-20-2017 23:16
    Regarding the casters becoming unscrewed:  I am not sure why the casters are made with threads in the first place - why would you want to unscrew the casters?  In any case, it is a good idea to use some thread locking paste on the threads and to tighten them up nicely. That way you won't have to worry about them loosening off over time.

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    Jurgen Goering
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  • 12.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-21-2017 15:20
    Thanks to all who talked about the different voicing techniques for Hamburg Steinway hammers, and thanks especially to Kathy Smith for mentioning the threading of the big double casters. The next time I see OSU's D, i'll lift each leg in turn, twist the casters back in by hand if they have walked out, and measure with a vernier caliper to see what size of wrench would be needed. I assume it would be something thin, like a router wrench? Possibly I can make something. Being sure the casters are snugly installed will become a yearly ritual.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 13.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-21-2017 20:43
    Hi, Susan, and Jurgen,

    I noticed your comments about casters, and I thought I’d add another two cents’ worth. More actually - buckle in, or sit down, I will tell you much more than you ever wanted to hear about casters! I hope some bits might be of use. It was all learned the hard way, and has been useful to me since. Casters can be your friends, until they aren’t! I’ve been thinking about this all day while I tuned.

    Jurgen, I don’t know who designed or invented the big casters that go on the big pianos, but they are very common, and there have been multiple times I’ve absolutely needed them to unthread, and I’ll say why later. I was startled that time I found one coming unthreaded, but keep in mind that it was extreme. I didn’t know about this tip before that, no one had ever mentioned such a thing, and the piano had been moving around stage for literally years before it happened to be tipped up by the movers and I noticed the loose caster. Now, when I check them annually, they are often still snug, and at most, an eighth or quarter turn out. The bad one I found was two or three full rotations of the outer (or lower) flange, and since I have one in front of me and can count twelve threads, it was still only about 1/6th the way out. I didn’t mean to be dramatic and overstate the case. if anyone wants to add anything like LocTite to keep it from happening (not necessary with annual checks) I wouldn’t do more than a little drop in one tiny spot. You need to get them out sometimes.

    Here’s why I became so sensitized to the big caster issues. It started back in the day when NY D’s came standard with the long legs and small brass casters, which local C&A managers promptly switched out for Darnell double rubber casters to minimize floor damage. I did the same on all my school D’s and B’s. Performance areas that wanted the short legs and big casters had to have them installed after purchase, which meant switching legs and installing casters, usually done by the movers or warehouse people. (See more later….)

    One stage had two D’s with the big casters. In a near-miss 20 years ago, a D nearly rolled off a stage edge but they caught it just in time. The tail leg had just dropped off the stage edge but went no further. I was called in, and took the leg off, noticing that the leg had a loose upper glue joint at the cross piece. In the shop, I noticed the caster being weird and tried to get it out. Turns out the side pressure as it rolled off the stage had broken the socket flange right off, up inside the leg. The flange was still screwed into the leg, but the tube up inside the leg, and therefore the caster shaft, were floating free. It was tricky to even get the caster out - I had to pull on it to engage the jagged edges of the broken parts, and turn it out. But once it was out, I learned that you can’t just buy one of the flanged sockets. Even with calling in favors and wheedling, I still could only order a full set for $2000. and wait 3 months for them! (It’s much quicker now, they are much more common.) The venue ended up doing that, because they had 2 D’s and had some other caster issues anyway. (One caster tightening knob had been hit, bent sideways, and stopped working, for example.) Replacing the broken socket, screwing it in place, and turning the caster back in was easy, and then I had spares. If you know anyone who removes large casters for any reason, remove the sockets and save them like gold.

    I have learned that the big Yamaha grands and Steinway grands use basically the same system, even though Steinway casters have gone through several body styles in the last 20 years. I know from checking that the screw threads inside the Steinway sockets have stayed the same, so new casters will fit in old (healthy) sockets. And the same Yamaha spanner tool fits all of my old and new NY and Hamburg Steinways, and older CFIII and new CFX Yamaha grands. Sorry, those are the only ones I have available to me for checking. The Yamaha tool is excellent, but it cost $129. I have perfect photos from my PowerPoint class, but I’ll have to wait until my tech guy (husband David Vanderlip) is home to help me pull them out and attach them. I have also found a much cheaper tool, a McMaster-Carr # 5481A2, “adjustable pin spanner wrench” which can work well after some significant grinding. It is just two arms that swing on a joint at one end, hence the “adjustable” part. At the other ends are two 3/16" round pins. Those pins need to be ground to fit into the smaller slot shapes in the lower (locking) flange. The arm ends are also too thick for the space, and need to be ground thinner at the backs, at the pin ends. And it only costs $29, if I recall. It might be worth the time back and forth to the grinding tool for you.

    I have also learned that those expensive casters can be ruined by crew members who over-tighten the lock system. I haven’t taken one apart to know what’s inside, but something wears or strips and the wheels stop locking, and they roll away too easily. I try to train crews that “Snug is good - tight is bad” but I still find them unnecessarily tight. Piano movers here can be the worst offenders.

    In another case, a big caster was clearly not right, so I lifted the corner, took off the leg, and pulled it apart. It turned out that the piano movers or warehouse had installed the after-market socket with long drywall screws, and they were far too brittle. Two out of three had sheared off and only one held the socket and caster in place. I breathed a sigh of relief that the socket wasn’t broken. I turned the flange a few degrees for fresh wood, drilled new holes and installed proper wood screws. Very rewarding to turn the wobbly mess into a nice solid caster.

    In all of those cases, I needed to turn the whole caster out to access the screws in the flange, up in the leg. In one case, a Yamaha CFIII on long-term loan to a venue had a caster that wouldn’t roll at all. I lifted the corner, took off the leg, and tried everything in the world to turn out the caster. I had the proper Yamaha tool, I had big guys try to break the flange loose, to no avail. I don’t know if someone had used glue or LocTite on the threads, but the whole piano had to go back to Yamaha for the repair. Short of cutting the leg open, there’s no way to get a caster out if you can’t turn it and can’t access the socket screws. I don’t really know how they solved it. I was glad for that one to be “not my problem”.

    I am itching to attach those photos, they show what I mean so perfectly. I’ll try to get that done in the next few days. It’s NAMM show time here, and although we aren’t working it this year, lots of people are in town. Susan, if you want that McMaster-Carr tool, you’ll really need to see those photos. I haven’t found any other sort of tool that works. The person working with me then had a portable grinder, so we could keep grinding and trying the tool on-site until it was right.

    Best to you all,

    Kathy




  • 14.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-22-2017 01:57
    Kathy said: <<I will tell you much more than you ever wanted to hear about casters! >>

    I don't really think that is possible ... Never to be beaten at writing a post of unreasonable length, I'll tell you my little caster stories, and what I learned the hard (i.e., the stupid) way.

    I've never hauled off a leg with the big double casters, or tried to turn one out to reveal the socket. However, I was warned when they first arrived about the things which shouldn't happen to them. One trouble in a university setting is that student helpers or employees keep leaving and being replaced, so teaching them what not to do has to be a constantly ongoing process. So, I tell them: (1) the piano can be forced to roll with the brakes on, but shouldn't be, because it hurts the rubber inside. So, before moving the piano, release the brakes on the two wheels which have them, BUT (2) turn the toggle only about a quarter turn, which should be enough to release the brake. People automatically spin the toggle round and round several turns. I explain to them that the caster can come apart inside from this, and is a pain to get back together. I'm taking this from advice I received -- never had one come apart inside, NEVER WANT TO. (3) as soon as the brakes are released, the piano will move so freely one can push it with a finger. Therefore, do not leave it unsupervised with the brakes off. As soon as it reaches the desired location, put the brakes back on. (4) (as you say) snug, not gorilla-tight, because, like rolling it with the brakes on, that hurts the rubber inside. Well, I'm assuming it's rubber, because it certainly feels like it. Some people have gotten the brakes so tight I have had to whack the toggle with the back end of my tuning lever to free them up.

    Once, sitting too far back in the audience to walk up in time, I saw untrained orchestra members break every single one of the rules above, in order. Rolled it out with the brakes on. Oops, loosened them, but by turning them around four or five turns. Piano in desired location -- they walked away from it with the brakes off. Ten minutes later, just before the performance -- tightened them gorilla tight .......

    And, one more point told me by Doug Wood -- if the front casters both point out or both point in, it changes the shape of the keybed slightly, and can affect key dip.

    So, with the appropriate advice, one hopes never to see the first nightmare: the piano with the brakes off abandoned by the hired help or the orchestra members detailed to move the piano, which gradually rolls on a slightly tilted stage till it rolls right off the front.

    Nightmare 2 also never happened, but it may have been way too close for comfort, and in my ignorance I did a stupid thing. Beautiful new Hamburg legs on our New York D, we're following the rules above, it's all great --- then one day I notice that the wedge for the tail leg is hanging down at a 45 degree angle, held in only by the last half inch. I push it back up and whack it in, but it only goes in another inch or so, and frequently works back out again, hanging there. In my ignorance I assume that the new leg is thicker than the old one, so that the wedge is now too wide to go in. It certainly won't go in enough, and it also loves to work back out and then just dangle there. (Nightmare of the piano being moved across stage and the tail leg comes off ...) So I block up the rear of the piano in its storage room, and take the wedge home, after carefully measuring the clearance needed. I very, very gingerly work one side of the wedge down till it will go almost all the way in, trying very hard to keep the side I'm altering completely straight. Then I write on the unpainted wood on the hidden side that it is for the tail leg, and has been altered, so don't switch it with one of the other leg wedges. It actually works -- the darned thing fits, and mostly stays in, with only a very small tendency to work a fraction of an inch out.

    Then, since Doug Wood was about to come work on the piano, I mentioned the tail leg and the wedge, and he explained what I hadn't known: the leg wasn't a different size. However, changing out the New York leg for the Hamburg leg, one has to take the lock plate from the New York leg and install it into the Hamburg leg, not all that easy a chore. But if the lock plate on the leg isn't EXACTLY flush with the top surface of the leg, the lock plates will not engage the whole way, (if it is a little shy of the surface) or the leg will rock (if it is proud of the surface.) Ours was shy of the surface, and it took only a tiny distance to keep the lock plates from fully engaging -- hence the wedge didn't have room to go all the way in. Forewarned, he brought a new Steinway leg wedge (just like the others) and I took my carefully skinnied one home for a keepsake to remind me that ignorance can lead one to do some screwy things. (Well, at least the leg never fell off ...)

    The new wedge was wood-colored, and he said I could paint it all flat black, or install it and use marker to make the visible portion black, which is what I did. I'm glad I did because -- despite it all working and being properly installed now -- that wedge still tends to gradually work a little way out. If I look at it after 18 months or so, I can see the undarkened wood showing that it has moved out about about 3/8ths of an inch. I drive it back in, also using something Doug told me: you put it in by hand, then you whack it upward with the rubber mallet, and THEN you can drive it home. It will go a little further.

    Mark Twain pointed out that most things one worries about never happen, in which case all this stuff (like getting and grinding the "adjustable pin spanner wrench", which I think I'll do) remains unnecessary. But it's like needing a particular part or tool -- it may be fifteen or twenty years before one needs it, but at that point, one needs it badly, and sometimes right NOW.



    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 15.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Posted 01-23-2017 04:40
    I'm a sort of 'pernickety' person and I can't stand spelling errors. F'rinstance: 'Caster' as in sugar and Castor as in furniture wheels, Castor and Pollux or even Castor Oil. (yuk!). Look it up! My S&S model 'A' 1914 Hamburger has 2 1/2" wide brass 'steam-roller' Castors - I replaced the original awfully inadequate, binding, rusting, small-wheeled, narrow castors when I bought the piano.  
    Michael  UK





  • 16.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-23-2017 12:02
    Hi, Michael,

    It must be another one of the many differences between UK and American English. I myself am usually pretty careful about spelling. “Caster” is the spelling in the US for the things that roll. It is spelled like that in any catalog or dictionary search. “Castor” as a spelling would be startling to me in that context. I can see why it was annoying if it seemed wrong to you, especially in a long post that used it so often.

    Kathy




  • 17.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-23-2017 15:19
    Yes, Michael, two countries divided by a common language. It's "caster" here, and castor is castor oil.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-23-2017 16:17
    I’m sure we also mis-spell flavor and humor, and don’t get us started on pronouncing “jaguar”!

    Oh well, it seems we all communicate pretty well, just the same. Thanks for bringing it up, really, so we could clarify it.

    Kathy




  • 19.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Posted 01-24-2017 02:12
    Hello Kathy

    I find the American pronunciation of 'mirror' more interesting than that of 'jaguar' (as in car)

    Michael   UK





  • 20.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Posted 01-24-2017 02:09
    Hello Kathy

    This 'Castor/Caster' business - of course I am willing to accept the American spelling like a good neighbo(u)r! 
    I looked it up in my Reader's Digest Universal Dictionary (published London, New York Sydney &c) before commenting. 
    You know how it is . . .  'Caster' just looks wrong in the context of wheels on a piano. 
    Thanks for not being too mad at me for my comment!
    Yours is an interesting 'post' though!

    Michael  UK





  • 21.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Posted 01-24-2017 00:13
    I'd like to add a couple of comments on this subject.

    First, the idea of keeping the casters fore-and/or-aft during use is not mine. I heard this from the C&A people in NY who were told of it from the Hamburg people. My own experience is that having the casters point out or in does not necessarily flex the keybed, but that it can in some cases. Result: too much or too little aftertouch. Have any of you had this be a problem?

    In any case, I find the casters look a bit better if they are behind the legs. Easy to arrange, either by having the last little move be toward the keyboard, or by lifting just enough to rotate the casters into position.

    The other item is about this particular piano with the short legs that were fitted after delivery. As I understand it the piano was one near the end of the old-style leg with 2" casters, and the school purchased short legs and large brass casters as add-ons. They were fitted to the piano by someone else, and are fine except for this one detail. I believe the reason the wedge works its way out is that the leg is not quite parallel to the far side of the fixed wedge. The wide end of the gap is just a bit wider than it should be.

    Having installed a couple of sets of short legs, I know how challenging it is to get the locking plates oriented perfectly. I did not have time, tools, or materials available to remove the locking plate from the leg, plug the holes, and re-position it. Or to do this with the fixed wedge. Only enough time to correct the elevation so the leg locked in properly.

    In the factory, the wedges are installed after the leg is in place so it is easy to have the back side of the fixed wedge parallel to the leg. Replacing the legs involves installing the locking plate in the leg and requires drilling for the screws. Easy to be off just a bit in either rotation or elevation.

    BTW, I have had two pianos at the UW (I think both '70's vintage) with locking plates that just barely worked. One had a leg collapse, and the other had the lyre fall off. After many years of service. In both cases, the plate was just a bit too far into the leg so the overlap between locking plates was insufficient.

    Doug

    Doug Wood, RPT
    206-935-5797






  • 22.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-24-2017 10:14
    Don Mannino tells us that Kawai techs have the protocol of having the caste/ors aiming to the front, then splay them just a bit (less than 45 degrees), with the idea of “crowning” the keybed slightly. This counteracts the possibility of glide mating problems.
    Fred Sturm
    fssturm@comcast.net
    www.artoftuning.com
    http://fredsturm.net
    "Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." -Gustav Mahler




  • 23.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-24-2017 10:30
    I should have added, also to keep the piano from wanting to move if the locks weren't quite secure, and a little more stability of the instrument on the floor (anti-rocking). And that the crowning of the keybed is to counteract the pedal lyre creating a force pulling the keybed down, with heavy pedaling.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "A mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled." Plutarch













  • 24.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-24-2017 12:02
    Hi, Doug, good to hear more about this.

    I'm quite happy to believe the Hamburg guys about the placement of the casters, especially since it's so easy to follow their advice.

    I was a witness to how miserable and heavy a job it was to get the lock plates off the old legs and onto the new. I'll be very glad if I never have to do it myself. As far as the "creeping wedge" goes -- well, it doesn't go very far! It's interesting to know that the reason for it is a very tiny rotation of the lock plate, so that the leg is no longer QUITE parallel with the wedge system, but at this point, taking a rubber mallet and giving the wedge a good double whack (up and then in) once a year is just fine with me. Aside from the nuisance of plugging and redrilling the holes, it seems to me that the chances of having the leg further rotated instead of straighter would be considerable.

    As for not having the time to alter the wedge system or the lock plate that day when you shimmed it to get it flush, you did incredibly good work on that visit! And the piano has met with universal success (even acclaim) ever since. One artist sat at the piano after his concert and  enthusiastically demonstrated to Rachelle one thing after another which he could get that piano to do, and while he usually preferred Hamburg D's, he indicated to her that this was one of the best New York D's he'd ever played on.

    If this discussion will let even a few other people understand that the lock plates won't mesh right if one is just a little shy of the wood surface -- which I certainly had not known before you told  me -- this whole thread has earned its keep. And learning from Kathy that the big brass casters are turned in and can gradually start to turn back out is valuable as well.

    Regards,

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2017 15:14
    I second David Skolnik's request--yes, please continue on line.
    Thank you.

    Greg Granoff
    Humboldt State University





  • 26.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2017 15:54
    I'll make it 3x. Recently had to voice to please an artist here who liked both of our pianos  - 1 New NY D and a Hamburg D. The voicing techniques for each  that was suggested are in line with what's has been said here so far regarding the hammers. 

    ------------------------------
    -Phil Bondi
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2017 12:16
    Mr. Chapman, I'm so glad David responded. I second everything he said. When I was in the Heart of Texas Chapter, we had an amazing chapter meeting (or two meetings I think it was) on this exact topic. Craig Waldrop did the class at Baylor University where they have a WONDERFUL Hamburg D AND a nice New York D as well. Since I only took care of the Baylor School of Music for a few months, I wanted some others to comment.
    In Craig's class, he spent most of his time actually voicing hammers on the Hamburg at various places. He showed that one single stitch in a hamburg hammer MAY be all that is needed. And we could all hear the difference. Bottom line, these hammers are VERY responsive to needling. ESPECIALLY near the crown. Very dense and great quality felt. More forgiving in the lower shoulders, but overall just proceed with caution with these until you begin to feel comfortable voicing them.
    New York hammers--different ball game altogether as David pointed out.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 28.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Posted 01-24-2017 22:52
    Hey Guys,
    Sometimes it pays high dividends to look in the archives. I found this Pdf that shows the differences in techniques required for voicing/tuning/servicing the Hamburg vs New York Steinways. As well as the Boston and Essex.
    http://my.ptg.org/viewdocument/steinway-tuning-voicing?CommunityKey=16e8f8dc-7b6a-43b3-aa35-a82288dd8cbf&tab=librarydocuments

    ------------------------------
    ChrisChernobieff
    Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
    Lenoir City TN
    865-986-7720
    chrisppff@gmail.com
    www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-18-2017 00:57

    Well, I take care of several Hamburg Ds and have put Hamburg D hammers on several NY Ds.  IMO the Hamburg D hammer is quite suitable for the NY D (assuming a healthy belly).  I don't care for the NY D hammer because the raw hammer is so soft that it requires more lacquer than is good for the long term health of the hammer.  For a smaller piano with lower impedance characteristics and therefore less lacquer required it can work ok.  But the D is a different animal.  This is sort of off topic though.  As I said earlier, the main difference you will find between the Hamburg and NY is the hammer and you will need a set of needle skills to work effectively with the Hamburg piano.  Don't try and do all the voicing through the strings, you'll have to pull the action.  Some needling in the lower and upper shoulder off the strike point will be required.  Of course once you get the hammer set you can touch up with very shallow needling.  But don't try and resolve f and ff levels with crown needling.  You'll end up with a mushy top and quite possibly a mid and lower shoulder that is too firm.  I don't like the "angel shot" method either.  For a one time fast correction it's fine but it focuses on the back side of the hammer to the exclusion of the front and that is not a good approach in the long term.  If you do only crown needing ala the NY hammer the piano may sound fine at lower dynamic levels but when you push it will be harsh and the tonal connection between tonal levels will be compromised. 

     

    The hammer must to be made to flex with increasing force and that means controlling the spring in the lower part of the hammer.  Once there it will be fairly stable but it can take some careful work to get it there and you must always test at all dynamic levels.  As the dynamic level increases, the lower part of the hammer comes more into play and you must account for that.  But it is not quite as simple as that.  Once you create some flex in the 1:30 – 3:00 range (and the equivalent on the opposite side) you usually don't have to address that again for awhile, if at all.  The 12:30 – 1:30  range will be useful for higher level dynamic ranges (mf – ff) and the 12:15 to 12:00 range (and, again, the equivalent on the opposite side of the hammer) for lower level playing (p – mp).  Shallow crown needling for ppp, una corda voicing, and individual string matching within the unison finishes it off.  I have a lengthy presentation on these methods but I haven't given it in a class format for awhile so contact me off list if you want and if you have additional questions and I'll try and answer or compile some diagrams. 

     

    David Love

    www.davidlovepianos.com

     






  • 30.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Posted 01-18-2017 02:30
    Hi, David, All,

    I completely agree with your assessments here...especially the lacquer
    and "angel shot" notes...

    I currently have six Hamburgs (four Ds and two Bs) to hand; and have
    cared for a fair number of other Hamburg models and ages for many
    years. While there are (especially since 1995) a number of increasing
    production "convergences), this has only served to reinforce the
    difference between the hammers. While the newer NY hammers are somewhat
    smaller, denser, and lighter, they still require a good deal of
    attention before being ready for prime time. That said, since I have
    those techniques under pretty good control, with reproduceable results,
    so, I'm not likely to change my approach.

    Additionally, I'd like to add some anecdotal support for David's comment
    re: the Hamburg D hammers being "quite suitable" for NY D. Some time
    ago, I wound up having Ds of each flavour on the same stage at a school.
    There was, of course, no money for parts, and, even if there had been,
    the room and the pianos were so busy that serious maintenance work
    simply was never really possible. In any event, it came to pass that
    the hammers on both instruments were worn to the point that the
    suffering of the instruments was becoming obvious to even the head of
    the school. Around the time that the comments were getting out of hand,
    we (miraculously) had a four-day weekend come along. I spent the entire
    weekend swapping H,S,&F between the pianos, traveling and re-regulating
    everything in sight, cleaning up the hammer shaping, refitting the
    hammers to the strings; and got through a semi-final tuning and voicing
    exercise just as the weekend was ending. While I do not recommend this
    for the faint of heart, the difference was immediately noticeable; and
    very positively received. The change was so well received, in fact,
    that, over a year later, when I left, those same hammers were still in
    place on the same instruments.

    I have several more NY Ds and Bs in my sights on which to do the same
    replacement...Hamburg hammers, along with new actions. We'll see...it
    does always come down to money.

    Kind regards.

    Horace


    On 1/17/2017 9:57 PM, David Love via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >
    > Well, I take care of several Hamburg Ds and have put Hamburg D hammers on several NY Ds. IMO the Hamburg D hammer is quite suitable for the NY D (assuming a healthy belly). I don't care for the NY D hammer because the raw hammer is so soft that it requires more lacquer than is good for the long term health of the hammer. For a smaller piano with lower impedance characteristics and therefore less lacquer required it can work ok. But the D is a different animal. This is sort of off topic though. As I said earlier, the main difference you will find between the Hamburg and NY is the hammer and you will need a set of needle skills to work effectively with the Hamburg piano. Don't try and do all the voicing through the strings, you'll have to pull the action. Some needling in the lower and upper shoulder off the strike point will be required. Of course once you get the hammer set you can touch up with very shallow needling. But don't try and resolve f and ff levels with crown
    > needling. You'll end up with a mushy top and quite possibly a mid and lower shoulder that is too firm. I don't like the "angel shot" method either. For a one time fast correction it's fine but it focuses on the back side of the hammer to the exclusion of the front and that is not a good approach in the long term. If you do only crown needing ala the NY hammer the piano may sound fine at lower dynamic levels but when you push it will be harsh and the tonal connection between tonal levels will be compromised.
    >
    > The hammer must to be made to flex with increasing force and that means controlling the spring in the lower part of the hammer. Once there it will be fairly stable but it can take some careful work to get it there and you must always test at all dynamic levels. As the dynamic level increases, the lower part of the hammer comes more into play and you must account for that. But it is not quite as simple as that. Once you create some flex in the 1:30 3:00 range (and the equivalent on the opposite side) you usually don't have to address that again for awhile, if at all. The 12:30 1:30 range will be useful for higher level dynamic ranges (mf ff) and the 12:15 to 12:00 range (and, again, the equivalent on the opposite side of the hammer) for lower level playing (p mp). Shallow crown needling for ppp, una corda voicing, and individual string matching within the unison finishes it off. I have a lengthy presentation on these methods but I haven't given it in a class format for
    > awhile so contact me off list if you want and if you have additional questions and I'll try and answer or compile some diagrams.
    >
    > David Love
    > www.davidlovepianos.com
    >
    >
    >
    >


  • 31.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-18-2017 10:48
    Hi, David,

    I agree entirely about voicing Hamburgs with the action pulled out. I do that as well, and on the rare occasions when I need to voice a few notes through the strings, I use a very bright light to be sure my needle placement is accurate.




  • 32.  RE: Hamburg Steinway grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-18-2017 11:36
    One other difference that comes to mind is the flange friction.  The current NY recommendation is something like 0-1 grams.  That's too low, IMO.  I check the flange friction by swings.  In the Renner flange I like to see about 6 swings.  Hold the hammer at 3:00 and let go.  When it gets to 9:00 that's one swing.  If the friction is too low it reduces how much tension you can put on the rep spring and you also run the risk of play in the flange which can affect the reliability of the voicing as the hammer path can wobble.  

    That's 6 swings throughout, btw.  A 10 gram hammer that swings 6 times will mean slightly higher friction in the flange than a 6 gram hammer that swings 6 times, as it should be.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------