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Baldwin Artist Grand -

  • 1.  Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Member
    Posted 01-18-2018 22:18
    Customer has one of the last US made Baldwin Artist Grands (an M)  with accu just hitch pins. I proposed doing some action regulation since shanks are sitting on the rebound rail and rep springs are on the weak side, backcheck tails check low. Also has several hammers that hang up . I recall lubricating all of the jacks about 2 years ago which seemed to solve problem then. I'm wondering if perhaps the bushing work was not so good toward the end or if I need to remove the wippen and do some gram gauge checks on the jack, rep lever, hammer flanges and test for jack cheating. Unable to lube the jack today since my needle oiler was leaking at the needle base.

    Hammers need to have the cuts taken out and crown reshaped to get a better strike point. and eliminate flat top. Customer thinks the sound is to bright or pingy and when squeezing  the felt it feels rock hard. Will light shaping be enough or would some chopstick voicing help. I do not  want to get into aggressive measures with these hammers however I recall a Baldwin Hamilton owned by a teacher that had beaten the snot out of the hammers yet no matter what I did I could not improve it. A tech friend had suggested aggressive needling but I am not about to blow out my arm  The teacher really needed hammer felt replacement because of the mileage on the hammers but was unwilling to spend what it required.This grand has plenty of felt left but looks like the hammers have never been touched after leaving the factory . Looking for suggestions/ tips/ and tricks that could make a difference.

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 2.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Posted 01-18-2018 23:31
    If the hammer have been treated with hardener, soak the crown with acetone and use an air compressor to force the solids away from the strike point. also dampen a cloth and use an iron to lightly steam the surface between 10 & 2. Side needling can help too.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 3.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-19-2018 02:41
    James

    You could shape the hammers to get rid of the grooves, but then instead of working your arm off, try steam voicing them. That will soften them up significantly.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 4.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Posted 01-19-2018 09:14
    James
    Shape hammers leaving just enough hammer mark. Wim has the right idea with steaming. But I’m thinking if that doesn’t bring them down enough, I’ve had some amazing results with the “angel shot” technique if the hammers are not too hard.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 5.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-19-2018 09:48
    James,

    If it were I, I would judiciously apply VS-Profelt to the hammers. Caution though is in order. I would start with just a few drops (4-6), but if that doesn't do it, double the application. It will swell the felt and help to break up any other hardener that may have been put in there. Some reshaping is probably in order too, but you'd have to decide that. 

    This has worked for me. It's powerful stuff so be careful.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 6.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-19-2018 12:48
    Hi Peter,

    Ive never used chemical softener on piano hammers before, and am wondering about the reversibleness of it. Is there a way to reverse VS-Profelt? And, what are the long term effects on the hammers?

    The reason I ask is, one of the techs near me (not a guild member) is very fond of using chemical softener - although he's never told me which one. "Oh it's great! You should try it." Right, but my main concern with that is, can the effects be undone? 

    Penny for your thoughts,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-19-2018 18:32
    Benjamin,

    Just like in tuning, one learns by making mistakes and then correcting them. Yes, it can be undone, however I have found that the key with this stuff is to not go too far to begin with. It does not harm the hammer in any way I have yet seen however...😎

    Although I fully agree with shaping the hammers such as in the case under discussion (and we don't really know quite how worn they are), that is not likely going to produce the desired result right yet. Therefore I would for instance:

    Shape one hammer and listen...too bright,

    Apply a little (repeat: a little) VS-Profelt, 

    Allow to dry and do it's thing, then assess...ok still too bright (didn't do much),

    Apply double the amount, let dry, assess...OK, now we've got something,

    Decide to do all and repeat but adjust amount of VSP accordingly.

    Just like with needling it is possible to go too far (which may in fact be less reversible than this), but if you turn the hammers into mush (possible [don't ask me how I know]), other standard voicing procedures will bring them back. Playing in and of itself will doubtlessly correct it too in time.

    Whether I am softening or hardening, I like to use the minimum amount of whatever it is to get the job done. So I need to know ahead of time (by trial) what the likely effect will be. Experiment in places it doesn't hurt.

    Pwg




    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 8.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-20-2018 08:09
    In addition to VS Profelt (which takes a while to dry fully), Pianotek sells a chemical hammer softener which can be quite effective.  Bob Marinelli recommended it highly, so I tried it recently on ten-year-old Young Chang grand.  A few drops make a noticeable difference, especially at the strike point, but be aware that the hammer might expand in spots if a hardener was previously used; if this happens, simply reshape.  I've since applied it to other hammers whose shape didn't change at all.

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    Kent Burnside, RPT
    Franklin TN
    615.430.0653
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  • 9.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-19-2018 11:02
    James,
    I had the identical problem with a Baldwin "M" a couple months ago. I tried to needle the hammers to no avail with improvement. I suspect there is no tension in the hammer felt. Shaping the hammers will certainly make for a brighter sound and you may find that you painted yourself in a corner.
    Roger





  • 10.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-19-2018 15:26
    Absolutely. There is no way around reshaping the hammers. If they are hard, have you considered steaming them? Of course there are chemical hammer softening solutions too. But I would wait with chemicals until after the hammers are reshaped.

    Listen to what the piano sounds like after the hammers are filed, recreating bulb-shaped hammers.

    You mentioned the piano's sound was described as pingy. Does it sound nasal, like the piano has a cold? What were the results of your soundboard inspection (crown and bearing).

    The best voicing job cannot make up for a soundboard that no longer performs right. The assessment of the soundboard and bridges needs to come first before selling a regulation and voicing job.

    Maria G. Pollock
    Registered Piano Technician
    773 307 5207

    The best way to get things done is do them.




  • 11.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-20-2018 18:30
    Maria,

    Interesting that you mention a "nasal" sound. I agree that good hammer shape often can address this issue.

    In fact, I just did it today on a Chickering grand here on the shop. I had shaped the hammers over a year ago, but to a rounded shape essentially following the original round shape. I have generally switched over to a more pointed shape (Steinway style) since then with consistently good results. So I decided to alter the shape to narrow egg. Result: nasal sound gone and body and sustain increased. 

    Many do not agree with this but I am convinced that shape is paramount.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-20-2018 20:35
    I agree!  I learned a great way to get this shape at Steinway at Oberlin. I have been doing this with Steinway hammers since but recently have been doing it with other hammers too. With other hammers I don't go quite as extreme though. I say it's not really the Steinway shape but I am giving the piano a "Long Island accent"!!!

    Chris





  • 13.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-20-2018 22:01
    Chris,

    👍👍!

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Member
    Posted 01-20-2018 23:09

     I am interested in seeing pictures of the hammer shapes others have mentioned however it seems it would be easy to take off too much felt unless one was taught the proper technique. Removing felt reduces the hammer weight and this customer commented that the action felt lighter and more responsive. Actually I was very careful to take small amounts of felt off the hammers restoring a rounder hammer and leaving faint string marks. Several other things I did was to get the shanks off the rebound rail felt and put a small amount of tension in the rep springs. I had to spend some time getting hammers centered under the strings since many did not contact the right string with enough felt. I ended up using my chop stick voicer on all of the undamped notes in the high treble. My goal was to satisfy the client and get better tone and touch without any drastic measures. The rep spring adjustment was quick and effective since the screws turned easily and improved things greatly.
    B6 had been jamming up (cheating jack). It failed to change with lubrication so I took the whip out. The rep lever only had 1 gram on the gam gauge so I repinned it. Added some tension to the rep spring and fixed it once and for all.

    I will keep everyones suggestions in mind next time around. I probably got lucky this time around and was fortunate I was not dealing with old action parts or screws and springs not responding to adjustment attempts.

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-20-2018 23:33
    James

    The fact that you tried your best to get a better sound from the hammers might convince your customer that perhaps getting a new set of hammers will get the best results she's looking for. 

    Good luck.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 16.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-21-2018 12:28

    Having worked in a shop, we would take in pianos where the client was willing to put on new hammers anyway.?? So I tried a technique using drug store fabric softener, an idea I got from an old Journal or something.?? Be sure the softener is unscented!

    Mix 1 part (a tablespoon) softener and 8 parts rubbing alcohol.?? It could be just water but the alcohol helps it penetrate.?? Using a 1/2 inch wide brush, "paint" the surface of the hammers all the way around.?? After you've done that, go back to the beginning and put a few dabs on the shoulders, at "10 & 2", enough to soak in but leaving a small untreated spot under the striking point.?? Allow 24 hours to dry.?? You can't tell the effects until then, and the softener is slightly acidic so you don't want a wet hammer touching the metal string.??

    I would also do this to pianos that no one would buy because they were so ear-splitting loud, but not nice enough to invest new hammers.?? And you don't have to necessarily do all the hammers.?? Sometimes the top octave would already be softer than the rest, so I wouldn't treat those.







  • 17.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-21-2018 09:26
    I absolutely agree. Sometimes I go as far as a diamond shape. 

    Maria G. Pollock, RPT
    773 307 5207
    Soli Deo Gloria





  • 18.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Posted 01-19-2018 19:28
    I've had really great results with these side voicing pliers from Piano Forte Supply. As I recall they cost about $100 but they've been well worth it.

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    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & Easy Piano Tuner user
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  • 19.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-21-2018 13:25
    Scott,
    Any more suggestions you can give on using side-voicing pliers? I have a pair but haven't yet used them much. Do you use all 3 needles?
    thanks,
    Scott

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    Scott Cole
    Talent OR
    541-601-9033
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  • 20.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-22-2018 15:46
    James,
    You say you don't want to "blow out your arm" by needling. I suggest you learn a different technique of hammer needling. Needle with the action on the bench, hammers well supported. Stand up, so that you can press the needles into the felt, using your body weight, with your forearm at an angle that approaches vertical. 

    Make your first insertion begin just above the widest part of the shoulder, and angle it so that it is parallel to the lower shoulder, so that you are opening up about a 2 mm wide strip of felt. Follow with 3 - 4 insertions parallel to the first one, each one opening a new strip of felt. At that point, begin to change your angle of insertion, to vertical and then to angle away from the crown and toward the shoulder, so that you are leaving a triangle of felt above the point of the molding untouched.

    This is ergonomically MUCH better than the typical insertions with the keyboard in your lap, forearm more or less horizontal, and pressing in toward the interior felt from the very first insertion. 

    Here is a video of that technique on an upright piano hammer with fairly heard felt. And a photo showing how a length of stiff angle iron can be used to support the hammers above the back checks.

    angle iron supported above the level of the tops of the back checks.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
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  • 21.  RE: Baldwin Artist Grand -

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-22-2018 20:00
    This 4' ruler is light, rigid, and great for key leveling (I have a WNG as well), but can also be used in the same way to support hammers:
    (if the photos don't show please see attachments).

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    Scott Cole
    Talent OR
    541-601-9033
    ------------------------------