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Voicing back the C7

  • 1.  Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-23-2017 04:26
    Hi, everyone.
    This instrument is used for performances. With the lid up while tuning, it sounds fine. With the lid closed and 2 condenser mics on it, it sounds a bit shrill - 2.5-3k is very present. The closed lid or using the short stick seems to be the only option in the room it is used in the most.
    What might be the best way to treat these hammers(OEM)? Thanks. 

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    -Phil Bondi
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  • 2.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-23-2017 05:41
    I will add the piano is 9 years old, and I have strong doubts my predecessor did anything to enhance the brilliance of the hammers.
    I have needled on and around the strike point, and have done some re-shaping, but I am wondering if a softening solution might accelerate the process, or perhaps I should be more aggressive with my placement of the needles. Simple needling improved the effect, but I have a ways to go. Being unsure of the best way to handle Yamaha hammers, and the collective wisdom reading this post, is the reason for the question.
    Thanks.

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    -Phil Bondi
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  • 3.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Posted 02-23-2017 07:59
    Phil,
    David Stanwood invented a technique for opening a resilient layer on hammers such as these.
    Get a General Adjustable Pin Vise, Item #93.
    I will send you some 78 rpm phono needles, and will post some photos.


    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Posted 02-23-2017 15:58
    Where in the scale is the problem mostly happening...alto capo area and just to the tenor side of the capo?

    If so, check how long the actual string contact line is on the hammers...ie if you do the carbon paper trick, how long (wide edited out replaced with "long") front to back is the contact area of each string on the crown of the hammer. With hard hammers, reducing the contact surface, will, counter-intuitively, reduce the shrillness of the attack and improve sustain some. You have to prove where the actual center of the strike width is first using the carbon paper trick. Then, after knowing exactly where that apex is, keeping the apex centered, reduce the width of the strike surface until you come to a sweeter spot.   

    I have had some Yamahas respond quite nicely to this approach.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-23-2017 17:46
    Jim,

    That approach corresponds nicely with the thread we had here a while ago on hammer shaping. I like that idea.

    Pwg


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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 6.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-23-2017 18:25
    Why do you think the problem lies with the hammers? A piano with an open lid has very few acoustical standing waves, but once you close the lid you get that extra surface for sound to bounce off of. All kinds of frequency response boosts and cuts develop along with phasing problems around the mic capsule that can be note specific when the lid is closed. If different micing techniques have not already been tried I would suggest moving the mics around to see if that reduces the problem. Example: Anyone using an ETD has experienced the problem of the ETD sometimes not reading the note you are on correctly. Move the ETD only a little bit and now it can read that note just fine. The problem is mostly a problem of phase cancellation around the microphone. 2.5Khz has a wavelength of about 14 cm. A microphone placed within a peak of that waveform is going to get a boost of those frequencies. 

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 7.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-23-2017 19:43
    Geoff,
    I agree. All kind of undesirable noise is generated with the lid down. I have several customers who play with the lid down. I always ask myself why they invested in a grand piano rather than an upright who's internal tonal clashes are equal.
    Roger





  • 8.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-23-2017 22:34
    Hi everyone. Thanks for the replies.

    Geoff, I can't agree more, but sound reinforcement for this room is something I need to deal with. The other pianos(2 Steinway D's) that occasionally get used and mic-ed in that room do not have the same affect as this Yamaha. 

    Jim, I like your idea and will give it a try. Ed is sending me some hardware to deal with this problem as well.

    Thanks again. I will let you know the results. I'll get some time with it again next week and post the results and methods used.

    ------------------------------
    -Phil Bondi
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-23-2017 22:38
    Phil wrote:
    "Ed is sending me some hardware to deal with this problem as well."

    Please let us in on what Ed sends you, and how it works out.

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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  • 10.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Posted 02-24-2017 09:04
    What I'm sending Phil is a few steel 78 rpm phono needles. Cheap from Amazon. He will need to buy the General Pin Vise.
    I use them in a sugar coating technique, followed by pounding the surface with the back end of the pin vise.
    The phono needles are broader than a sewing needle, they have a more obtuse profile. Because of this they spread the wool fibers wider at the surface of the hammer, less so as the needle penetrates to its point. Then pounding seems to massage the fibers into a blended consistency, more flexible on the surface, getting tougher going into the hammer. David Stanwood uses a small ball peen hammer; I use a cap bolt on the tail of my voicing tool.
    As far as I know, David Stanwood invented this. I learned it second hand from John Foy, and have waited several years for them to publish it.
    If you support the hammer tails on a voicing block and squeeze 3 or 4 hammers together, you can pound quickly with the needle and not tear through the sides of the hammers.  Don't wory about aiming for the string grooves, count your strokes, trying to put about the same to each hammer, tapering off for smaller hammers, or where you want to make less change.
    I don't think this is a technique for NY Steinway hammers, but it usually gets a range of tone from hard pressed hammers.
    I'll try to send photos or video next week.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-24-2017 11:50
    I would be very cautious with that approach (compass points have typically been used for this).  It's  very aggressive (read destructive) and I would say reserved for hammers that are otherwise impossible to deal with.  Generally speaking this is not a technique I would use on a Yamaha hammer which will respond to more conventional voicing techniques.  It's a technique reserved for desperation when the overall health of the hammer is of no concern.  

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 12.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Posted 02-24-2017 17:53
    It's up to the hand that controls the needle, and the mind that controls the hand.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 13.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-25-2017 01:29
    Maybe, but the nature of the tool itself is aggressive and destructive. If you want a lighter treatment I'd use a smaller needle.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Posted 02-26-2017 14:35
    Region 4, Central East as I recall, 2001 seminar, Cincinnati,

    The Yamaha guys came threatening not to fulfill Warranty claims for Yamaha hammers conventionally treated, i.e., steamed.

    The Yamaha hammers in the past decade are even brighter. I had to go to a concert for a C7 I tuned with a big sound, as substitute, voluntarily. But would not have paid or attended alone. The sound was giant at the keyboard.

    I didn't even think it was the same piano 7 yards away. Maybe 8. Didn't notice the case damage tuning it. But it was. Is the piano used without mic? I would also consider doing nothing to the hammers at least. Those D's are another animal that might mislead less experienced sound people.

    Just had a conversation with a sound guy over a C3 Fri who also thought Yamaha mics better than Steinway. Yamaha has that rep with people who never turned a tuning pin on a piano. 

    However, God forbid we do something unprecedented to an instrument sales of which have declined for a century almost. We make string covers. These polyester finishes reflect sound, not absorb it. How about trying to cover the lid with the same kind of felt?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
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  • 15.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Posted 02-26-2017 15:47
    I've been pondering David's concerns, and think it's best to post some details and caveats about this technique.
    The first photo shows three needles, the phono needle on the left and two compass needles. (The squares are about 5mm)
    As I understand this approach, the relative bluntness of the phono needle prevents a deep penetration on a hard hammer, The wool fibers pressure stops the needle from going far into the hammer...assuming the technician is paying attention and calibrating the strength of the stroke. If the hammer is not resisting the phono needle, it is too soft for this technique.
    The compass needles are sharper, and they scare me, I wouldn't use them. I believe the phono needles do slight lateral movements of the wool fiber, more at the top surface, less at the point of the needle, which is why they produce a gradation of hardness in the felt.
    But to be sure, I'd suggest using the pin vise surface as a depth gauge (second photo) here set at 1.5mm, which might be used around the tenor break, lightening up into the treble and tapering to nothing by the top notes. i.e. lighter touch and fewer strokes.
    I've used this approach for quick and economical voicing of pianos that have hard hammers, and for pianos that have reverted to harsh brightness after gentler needling. It has been very useful in new practice room and studio pianos which only get a few hours attention each year.

    If anyone has experienced hammer damage after this approach, I'd like to hear about it. 

    By the way, I think Phil has solved his problem with some chopstick voicing.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-27-2017 10:05
    I prefer a more controlled and focused approach. I use small needles, usually #10 or #12 quilting needles (an online source is at that link). I have used home made needle fixtures in the past, but have switched to using the 5 needle tool Jurgen sells at Pianoforte Supply, the one with them all in a row. The needles should protrude about 3 mm, and can be inserted in line with the string grooves, either directly in the groove for reducing attack zing in regular position, or in between for una corda voicing.

    They can be inserted vertically at 12 o'clock, and/or angled at 1 and 11 o'clock (for increased effect). This allows for consistency and control, and is not that time-consuming. It will take me 15 minutes to do a single insertion in each groove for the full piano, about 30 minutes for a more complex set of insertions giving a gradient of una corda timbre.

    It does, of course, depend on the initial set up of the hammers. When facing something new, it is always a good idea to do a bit of deep shoulder voicing, tapering up toward the crown, to feel what might have been done or neglected before you got there. Shallow crown voicing alone really only affects p to pp and a bit of the "spice" of attack sound. If the core of the hammer is pretty static (dense and unmoving), it needs to be opened up, period. So that should be done first, and if you haven't stuck at least a few exploratory needles in (could be single needle at various points in a few hammers), you have no way of knowing.

    If a hammer has only been stabbed  with fairly shallow (5 mm or so) penetration, that is not the deep shoulder voicing that is needed.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-27-2017 22:37
    Hi everyone. Thanks to all who have participated and offered advice. It is much appreciated. Now with that said:

    DISCLAIMER: parts of the following post may offend some people because non-conventional approaches were tried.

    I was able to spend about an hr. with the patient on Sunday. Thinking that Ed Sutton and Jim Ialeggio had good thoughts, I started there - reshaping(again) and since Ed said he was sending me some hardware, I decided to try something in the interim: I put a #2 needle in a chopstick tool to imitate what Ed's suggestion was. 

    After a brief re-shaping, I started to poke at 10-2 with the #2 needle at 1cm. A fairly decent length. I made sure to stay far away from the crown with this weapon. Here's where the disclaimer takes place: after poking a bit, I took my 3 needle voicing tool, needles exposed to 1-2 mil,  and did what I am calling a 'cross stitch' effect on the crown. Starting at on end of the string grooves, and at a severe angle I went across the crown front to back 3 time each. My thinking here was to create a slightly deeper 'cushion' at the crown. I tapped the crown with the base of the voicing too 2x each. The result:

    Anything with an agraffe now sounds like the piano I knew was lurking - big, depth, warmth and the una corda had better definition. The capo area, while much improved, still lacked the depth I seek from this workhorse. I may be asking for something that the hammers are not capable of, but I am still going to try. I will have some time tomorrow, albeit brief. Jim, I'm going to take one hammer and make as much of a point as I can from 1 hammer - I'm thinking the last note before the upper treble break(G6?). If I can get that note to cooperate, I feel the rest down the line will fall in line. 

    Ed, I anticipate the hardware and thanks again for all the suggestions. The patient will live.

    ------------------------------
    -Phil Bondi
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-28-2017 06:51
    Hi everyone. 
    I'm with the patient now. I am going to let her breath and further recover from her surgery. The piano is being used in the pit so the lid will be down. I will get a report from the sound guy and Let you know. Ed, I still have use for the spikes. They won't be used in this piano. Thanks again. 

    ------------------------------
    -Phil Bondi
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  • 19.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-21-2017 19:37
    Hi everyone.

    I've revived this subject for the purpose of getting a '2-fer' today. It's on stage being used for a Pops concert all week, and the player and the sound guy are both impressed. The player asked how I got it to sound so 'full and not shrill' and the sound guy, who knows the room and the piano well, said the piano never sounded this big.

    Thanks to all here for the suggestions and a few of you for contacting me off-list. it's all worth it and good.

    ------------------------------
    -Phil Bondi
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Posted 03-21-2017 19:57
    what did you end up doing in the capo sections?

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-21-2017 20:06
    Hi Jim. Nothing different than any other section - made sure there was a nice tight strike point and needled. If anything, this section could use a little brightening...or maybe we're all so use to hearing how thin the sound had gotten..to answer your question, and your suggestion earlier in the thread, I agree the strike point might be the most important part of the process. 

    ------------------------------
    -Phil Bondi
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Posted 03-04-2017 12:36
    Thank you Pianoforte supply for your non-egotistical production of quality tools and thank you Fred Sturm for the humility to admit you could not achieve something better on your own. 

    Nothing I made or have seen made to needle hammers seemed adequate. 

    However, there is the option, budget and time permitting, of replacing the hammer with something softer than coeval Yamaha hammers. What will that take you, a couple days? There is a stage at which we try to make a hammer do something it is not designed to do.


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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-19-2017 00:02

    Roger,

    if your customers are professional pianists, all of us have grands and pretty much all of us keep the lid down 90% of the time. 

    The grand is mainly needed for the action. Good uprights are nice, but they can't be compared to the touch of a well-regulated grand. And since virtually all concert work is performed on grands, the preparation and practice needs to be on grands.

    Grands get loud in small spaces, however, so keeping the lid up all the time is not a good idea for practicing. It makes you back off, adjust, play more softly, thus reprogramming your touch. Then, at concerts, you don't have the necessary dexterity nor stamina to play as loud as is appropriate.

    The pianist's perception of the sound volume of a grand with the lid down in a livingroom roughly equals the perception of a grand with the lid all way up in a concert venue.



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    Patrick Wingren, RPT
    Jakobstad, Finland
    0035844-5288048
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  • 24.  RE: Voicing back the C7

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-26-2017 11:08
    I would like to suggest to not change the piano at all. I have several friends who are "sound men", & they can mic a crappy spinet & make it sound like a 9' grand. Change the EQ on the mixing board FIRST. If that doesn't work, change the microphones (you will still have to adjust EQ.) There are piano-specific mics out there that do a great job & can make the piano sound better than it is. If you want, email my hubby for exact EQ adjustments addressing specific harmonic ranges; he's good at this & can ask our sound-men friends who have tons of experience. tim@timandmaggie.net 

    Just an example of what they can do: if my flute sounds great through a mic except for C#5, they can adjust the soundboard to fix that one note for me & leave the rest alone. Mind you, this is a REALLY expensive soundboard, but I wanted to share my experience of what is possible. A cheaper soundboard can do the same thing, but on ranges of pitch instead of a specific note.

    If the piano sounds good, leave it alone, IMO.

    Good luck!

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    Margaret Jusiel
    Athens WV
    304-952-8615
    ------------------------------