Voicing

OK, the piano is a Steinway D new in February of this year.

Everyone agrees that this is a nice piano.

But I have been hearing some "buts"...

I don't know for sure whether these are the new denser hammers. (It is hard to tell, for one thing, since there has traditionally been much variation in Steinway hammers from specimen to specimen.) I did the Stanwood Precision Touch Design on this piano and the hammers were of normal weights.

I am reasonably certain that the hammer crowns were juiced with acetone and plastic before we saw the piano in the selection room.

The hammers do not seem to respond well to voicing. I have said that the piano is brighter than I am comfortable with.

This week a request came through to "sweeten" the sound of the piano; they said they wanted some "sugaring" done to the hammers.

I replied that I could conservatively needle the strike point area to soften the attack a bit. I mentioned that there had seemed to be a general desire expressed to keep the piano bright.

An seemingly annoyed reply came back telling me that they wanted me to sweeten the sound, not make it less bright.

In general, my experience here is that requests like this are always valid, always referring to some reality of voicing; the only problem may be in communicating about the concern.

The question is, does anyone have any ideas about "sugaring" that wouldn't involve strike point needling?

Thanks much.
-------------------------------------------
Kent Swafford
Lenexa KS
913-631-8227
-------------------------------------------

My guess is they are looking for more sustain.

-------------------------------------------
Barbara Richmond, RPT
near Peoria, Illinois


-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-15-2011 22:01
From: Kent Swafford
Subject: Sweetening



The question is, does anyone have any ideas about "sugaring" that wouldn't involve strike point needling?

Thanks much.
-------------------------------------------
Kent Swafford
Lenexa KS
913-631-8227
-------------------------------------------

That's an interesting request.  Who's making it?  "To sugar the hammers" sounds more like technician terminology than something a pianist would say.

Sorry I don't have any advice, but sometimes a pianist using technical lingo can be confusing, and make it sound like they have more of an exact idea of what should be done than they really do.  But it's possible that they just don't know that "sugaring" implies strike point needling...

I once was requested to make the tone more chocolatey...

-------------------------------------------
Zeno Wood
Brooklyn, NY
-------------------------------------------



The question is, does anyone have any ideas about "sugaring" that wouldn't involve strike point needling?

Thanks much.
-------------------------------------------
Kent Swafford
Lenexa KS
913-631-8227
-------------------------------------------

Hi Kent,

A 2 oz ball pean hammer can be used to work and massage the surface without damaging the fibers or diminishing power.  Support the tails and work over the strike area of the hammer with the pean end.   This can sometimes have a great or even miraculous effect on juiced or hot pressed hammers that are particularly hard at the surface.     

David Stanwood

The question is, does anyone have any ideas about "sugaring" that wouldn't involve strike point needling?

Thanks much.
-------------------------------------------
Kent Swafford
Lenexa KS
913-631-8227
-------------------------------------------

>A 2 oz ball pean hammer can be used to work and massage the surface without damaging the fibers or diminishing power.

I've been waiting for the opportunity to try this application and I think it would break up the stiff structure
of the impregnation. I'd try this before the micro-needles.

I've made a chop-stick voicing tool by installing the needle into a Dremel Tool and Drilling it into the handle end of a broken artist's brush and then used the same needle pressed in. I have quilting needles which are too small probably for the D/T but I can use an Exacto saw blade to make a kerf and insert the needles to make Fred's tool.
-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

>>A 2 oz ball pean hammer can be used to work and massage the surface without damaging the fibers or diminishing power.

>I've been waiting for the opportunity to try this application and I think it would break up the stiff structure
>of the impregnation. I'd try this before the micro-needles.
<snip>
>Regards,

>Jon Page

Hi Kent, Jon et al,

Kent's original interest was in a "sugaring" that does not involve "strike point needling".   The ball peaning method does this safely by "Limbering" the wool fibers at the surface that are overly hard from heat  pressing, lacquer, or desiccation from old age.  It can improve and cushion the attack and it does so without breaking down the integrity of the hammer.  It lasts much longer than traditional shallow "sugar needling".  

It's important to back up the tails with a block when hammering.    Here is a film clip on You Tube of John Foy using the technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-BazjScJtk

In this clip Mr. Foy starts with needling using a 13 degree inclusive angle compass needle point which may be used if a more aggressive effect with a deeper density gradient is needed as indicated by testing.   The beauty of needling with a wide angle point is that it limits how deep the needle can go so it's easy to control the effect without damaging deeper fibers and underlying power.  It works by opening the felt from the surface down and creates gradation of density which develops tonal colors.  On many types of hammers this effect may be had by ball peaning alone.  The needling step may be skipped as per the Kent's request of a technique that does not use needles.   The important thing is to back up the hammer with a wood block so the force of the blow is absorbed by the keys and keybed, not the glue joint between the hammer and shank.   Be careful not to break the tails if they have been thinned excessively.

The hammering technique alone will have little effect on unlacquered hammers that have been pressed at a low temperature.  (The exception here is if the felt sheets themselves have been overly pressed with dry heat before they even reach the hammer maker.  That's a whole other subject!)

This method of whacking the hammers may seem "whacky".  All I can say is try it out.  It has worked miracles for many of my clients and those of many other technicians who have added this method to their repertoire of magic tricks.   
 
Hope this helps,

David Stanwood

Although that is the correct link, it did't work for me.
On the youtube site, search for 'hammer voicing'
and it will probably be at the top of the list.
-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-BazjScJtk

-------------------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
-------------------------------------------
Thanks, David:

Where exactly does one get the 13 degree inclusive angle compass needle points?  I found needle points at several drafting suppliers online, but no specific mention of the angles. 

BTW, Boaz Kirshenbaum gave our N. H. chapter a demonstration of this technique on Saturday, on a Steinway B with some older "Renner Rocks".  Very quickly this made a wonderful improvement on the sustain of this instrument, took off the brittle edge, and fleshed out the tone beautifully.  It works, folks!!

Will Truitt





















riginal interest was in a "sugaring" that does not involve "strike point needling".   The ball peaning method does this safely by "Limbering" the wool fibers at the surface that are overly hard from heat  pressing, lacquer, or desiccation from old age.  It can improve and cushion the attack and it does so without breaking down the integrity of the hammer.  It lasts much longer than traditional shallow "sugar needling".  

It's important to back up the tails with a block when hammering.    Here is a film clip on You Tube of John Foy using the technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-BazjScJtk

In this clip Mr. Foy starts with needling using a 13 degree inclusive angle compass needle point which may be used if a more aggressive effect with a deeper density gradient is needed as indicated by testing.   The beauty of needling with a wide angle point is that it limits how deep the needle can go so it's easy to control the effect without damaging deeper fibers and underlying power.  It works by opening the felt from the surface down and creates gradation of density which develops tonal colors.  On many types of hammers this effect may be had by ball peaning alone.  The needling step may be skipped as per the Kent's request of a technique that does not use needles.   The important thing is to back up the hammer with a wood block so the force of the blow is absorbed by the keys and keybed, not the glue joint between the hammer and shank.   Be careful not to break the tails if they have been thinned excessively.

The hammering technique alone will have little effect on unlacquered hammers that have been pressed at a low temperature.  (The exception here is if the felt sheets themselves have been overly pressed with dry heat before they even reach the hammer maker.  That's a whole other subject!)

This method of whacking the hammers may seem "whacky".  All I can say is try it out.  It has worked miracles for many of my clients and those of many other technicians who have added this method to their repertoire of magic tricks.   
 
Hope this helps,

David Stanwood

Try this:

http://www.draftingsteals.com/20046.html

-------------------------------------------
David Stanwood
Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
West Tisbury MA
508-693-1583
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2011 10:15
From: William Truitt
Subject: Sweetening



-------------------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
-------------------------------------------
Thanks, David:

Where exactly does one get the 13 degree inclusive angle compass needle points?  I found needle points at several drafting suppliers online, but no specific mention of the angles. 

BTW, Boaz Kirshenbaum gave our N. H. chapter a demonstration of this technique on Saturday, on a Steinway B with some older "Renner Rocks".  Very quickly this made a wonderful improvement on the sustain of this instrument, took off the brittle edge, and fleshed out the tone beautifully.  It works, folks!!

Will Truitt





















riginal interest was in a "sugaring" that does not involve "strike point needling".   The ball peaning method does this safely by "Limbering" the wool fibers at the surface that are overly hard from heat  pressing, lacquer, or desiccation from old age.  It can improve and cushion the attack and it does so without breaking down the integrity of the hammer.  It lasts much longer than traditional shallow "sugar needling".  

It's important to back up the tails with a block when hammering.    Here is a film clip on You Tube of John Foy using the technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-BazjScJtk

In this clip Mr. Foy starts with needling using a 13 degree inclusive angle compass needle point which may be used if a more aggressive effect with a deeper density gradient is needed as indicated by testing.   The beauty of needling with a wide angle point is that it limits how deep the needle can go so it's easy to control the effect without damaging deeper fibers and underlying power.  It works by opening the felt from the surface down and creates gradation of density which develops tonal colors.  On many types of hammers this effect may be had by ball peaning alone.  The needling step may be skipped as per the Kent's request of a technique that does not use needles.   The important thing is to back up the hammer with a wood block so the force of the blow is absorbed by the keys and keybed, not the glue joint between the hammer and shank.   Be careful not to break the tails if they have been thinned excessively.

The hammering technique alone will have little effect on unlacquered hammers that have been pressed at a low temperature.  (The exception here is if the felt sheets themselves have been overly pressed with dry heat before they even reach the hammer maker.  That's a whole other subject!)

This method of whacking the hammers may seem "whacky".  All I can say is try it out.  It has worked miracles for many of my clients and those of many other technicians who have added this method to their repertoire of magic tricks.   
 
Hope this helps,

David Stanwood

-------------------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
-------------------------------------------
Hi David:

Thanks, I had seen these on this same website, but was not sure if they were exactly what Dr. Wool had ordered. 
You da man, David!

Will





Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2011 18:21
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Sweetening

Try this:

http://www.draftingsteals.com/20046.html

-------------------------------------------
David Stanwood
Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
West Tisbury MA
508-693-1583
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2011 10:15
From: William Truitt
Subject: Sweetening



-------------------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
-------------------------------------------
Thanks, David:

Where exactly does one get the 13 degree inclusive angle compass needle points?  I found needle points at several drafting suppliers online, but no specific mention of the angles. 

BTW, Boaz Kirshenbaum gave our N. H. chapter a demonstration of this technique on Saturday, on a Steinway B with some older "Renner Rocks".  Very quickly this made a wonderful improvement on the sustain of this instrument, took off the brittle edge, and fleshed out the tone beautifully.  It works, folks!!

Will Truitt





















riginal interest was in a "sugaring" that does not involve "strike point needling".   The ball peaning method does this safely by "Limbering" the wool fibers at the surface that are overly hard from heat  pressing, lacquer, or desiccation from old age.  It can improve and cushion the attack and it does so without breaking down the integrity of the hammer.  It lasts much longer than traditional shallow "sugar needling".  

It's important to back up the tails with a block when hammering.    Here is a film clip on You Tube of John Foy using the technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-BazjScJtk

In this clip Mr. Foy starts with needling using a 13 degree inclusive angle compass needle point which may be used if a more aggressive effect with a deeper density gradient is needed as indicated by testing.   The beauty of needling with a wide angle point is that it limits how deep the needle can go so it's easy to control the effect without damaging deeper fibers and underlying power.  It works by opening the felt from the surface down and creates gradation of density which develops tonal colors.  On many types of hammers this effect may be had by ball peaning alone.  The needling step may be skipped as per the Kent's request of a technique that does not use needles.   The important thing is to back up the hammer with a wood block so the force of the blow is absorbed by the keys and keybed, not the glue joint between the hammer and shank.   Be careful not to break the tails if they have been thinned excessively.

The hammering technique alone will have little effect on unlacquered hammers that have been pressed at a low temperature.  (The exception here is if the felt sheets themselves have been overly pressed with dry heat before they even reach the hammer maker.  That's a whole other subject!)

This method of whacking the hammers may seem "whacky".  All I can say is try it out.  It has worked miracles for many of my clients and those of many other technicians who have added this method to their repertoire of magic tricks.   
 
Hope this helps,

David Stanwood

Here's were I get my hammers..

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-ball-peen-hammers/=ej9wrc

-------------------------------------------
David Stanwood
Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
West Tisbury MA
508-693-1583
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2011 10:15
From: William Truitt
Subject: Sweetening



-------------------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
-------------------------------------------
Thanks, David:

Where exactly does one get the 13 degree inclusive angle compass needle points?  I found needle points at several drafting suppliers online, but no specific mention of the angles. 

BTW, Boaz Kirshenbaum gave our N. H. chapter a demonstration of this technique on Saturday, on a Steinway B with some older "Renner Rocks".  Very quickly this made a wonderful improvement on the sustain of this instrument, took off the brittle edge, and fleshed out the tone beautifully.  It works, folks!!

Will Truitt





















riginal interest was in a "sugaring" that does not involve "strike point needling".   The ball peaning method does this safely by "Limbering" the wool fibers at the surface that are overly hard from heat  pressing, lacquer, or desiccation from old age.  It can improve and cushion the attack and it does so without breaking down the integrity of the hammer.  It lasts much longer than traditional shallow "sugar needling".  

It's important to back up the tails with a block when hammering.    Here is a film clip on You Tube of John Foy using the technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-BazjScJtk

In this clip Mr. Foy starts with needling using a 13 degree inclusive angle compass needle point which may be used if a more aggressive effect with a deeper density gradient is needed as indicated by testing.   The beauty of needling with a wide angle point is that it limits how deep the needle can go so it's easy to control the effect without damaging deeper fibers and underlying power.  It works by opening the felt from the surface down and creates gradation of density which develops tonal colors.  On many types of hammers this effect may be had by ball peaning alone.  The needling step may be skipped as per the Kent's request of a technique that does not use needles.   The important thing is to back up the hammer with a wood block so the force of the blow is absorbed by the keys and keybed, not the glue joint between the hammer and shank.   Be careful not to break the tails if they have been thinned excessively.

The hammering technique alone will have little effect on unlacquered hammers that have been pressed at a low temperature.  (The exception here is if the felt sheets themselves have been overly pressed with dry heat before they even reach the hammer maker.  That's a whole other subject!)

This method of whacking the hammers may seem "whacky".  All I can say is try it out.  It has worked miracles for many of my clients and those of many other technicians who have added this method to their repertoire of magic tricks.   
 
Hope this helps,

David Stanwood

-------------------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
-------------------------------------------
Thanks again

Will





Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2011 18:23
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Sweetening

Here's were I get my hammers..

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-ball-peen-hammers/=ej9wrc

-------------------------------------------
David Stanwood
Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
West Tisbury MA
508-693-1583
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2011 10:15
From: William Truitt
Subject: Sweetening



-------------------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
-------------------------------------------
Thanks, David:

Where exactly does one get the 13 degree inclusive angle compass needle points?  I found needle points at several drafting suppliers online, but no specific mention of the angles. 

BTW, Boaz Kirshenbaum gave our N. H. chapter a demonstration of this technique on Saturday, on a Steinway B with some older "Renner Rocks".  Very quickly this made a wonderful improvement on the sustain of this instrument, took off the brittle edge, and fleshed out the tone beautifully.  It works, folks!!

Will Truitt





















riginal interest was in a "sugaring" that does not involve "strike point needling".   The ball peaning method does this safely by "Limbering" the wool fibers at the surface that are overly hard from heat  pressing, lacquer, or desiccation from old age.  It can improve and cushion the attack and it does so without breaking down the integrity of the hammer.  It lasts much longer than traditional shallow "sugar needling".  

It's important to back up the tails with a block when hammering.    Here is a film clip on You Tube of John Foy using the technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-BazjScJtk

In this clip Mr. Foy starts with needling using a 13 degree inclusive angle compass needle point which may be used if a more aggressive effect with a deeper density gradient is needed as indicated by testing.   The beauty of needling with a wide angle point is that it limits how deep the needle can go so it's easy to control the effect without damaging deeper fibers and underlying power.  It works by opening the felt from the surface down and creates gradation of density which develops tonal colors.  On many types of hammers this effect may be had by ball peaning alone.  The needling step may be skipped as per the Kent's request of a technique that does not use needles.   The important thing is to back up the hammer with a wood block so the force of the blow is absorbed by the keys and keybed, not the glue joint between the hammer and shank.   Be careful not to break the tails if they have been thinned excessively.

The hammering technique alone will have little effect on unlacquered hammers that have been pressed at a low temperature.  (The exception here is if the felt sheets themselves have been overly pressed with dry heat before they even reach the hammer maker.  That's a whole other subject!)

This method of whacking the hammers may seem "whacky".  All I can say is try it out.  It has worked miracles for many of my clients and those of many other technicians who have added this method to their repertoire of magic tricks.   
 
Hope this helps,

David Stanwood

I would be hesitant to use the ball pean technique in Kent's situation - maybe very lightly. A couple reasons: 
First, it would tend to negate any una corda work that had been done (assuming it had been done)
Second, in the middle of fall semester is not a good time to experiment on the prime concert instrument in a busy hall. One wants to act with a lot of caution, "evolving" the instrument bit by bit. 

Perhaps more to the point, while I wouldn't say never, I would tend not to use this kind of technique on lacquered hammers. That has to do with my own philosophy and procedures around the use of lacquer. I like to use the minimum material possible to get the desired effect, and to use the minimum manipulation of the hammers following application. My mental image is that I have felt that is not so dense, with a lot of space (relatively, compared to hard pressed) between individual fibers. What I am doing is stiffening those fibers enough to give the needed brilliance of attack, and power for forceful playing. This stiffness substitutes for the additional density in hard press.

Inserting needles into such a lacquered felt has a more focused effect than on hard pressed, because of the extra air space. The needles break down the lacquer structure in the fibers right around the needle, but don't have much effect farther out. With hard pressed, fibers are pushing on fibers more, so the effect is broadcast to a wider area. As I see it (and in the way I operate - with very controlled, focused insertion of needles) a lacquered hammer should be voiced by creating a kind of honeycomb structure, with stiff fibers that haven't been affected by needles, and more pliant ones that haven't. Done with finesse, you end up with a tone that "sparkles" without being brittle and harsh. But it is the fact that there is this mix of stiffness that creates this effect.

Hammering is at odds with my image: it would tend to break down the lacquer induced stiffness everywhere the hammer hit, creating a single degree of "lack of stiffness" down to some degree of depth. There would still be stiffness below for power, but the attack sound would probably lose the "sparkle" I am after (and that I graduate using tiny needles).

Admittedly, this is a theoretical objection: I haven't tried it on lacquered hammers. And I guess I am simply happy with the results I get with lacquer, so reluctant to try another technique that is at odds with my mental model, lacking experimental instruments I am dissatisfied with (all my practice room grands have hard pressed hammers at this point).

"A 2 oz ball pean hammer can be used to work and massage the surface without damaging the fibers or diminishing power.  Support the tails and work over the strike area of the hammer with the pean end.   This can sometimes have a great or even miraculous effect on juiced or hot pressed hammers that are particularly hard at the surface."
-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

This is the second time writing this reply, because the first time I typed it into the web interface at my.ptg.org and I apparently hit send during a blip in the school's internet connection, so my response was sent directly to oblivion. Grrrr. The verdict is in and we did OK. The pianist said, "Whatever you did, the piano was better; it sounded good." What I did was to sugar the strike points only where needed. After all, people generally liked this piano, but said it wasn't quite "there". Generally, I agree with Fred that the same operation should be done on every hammer, but that is more true at the beginning of voicing than it is toward the end of voicing. I reconfigured my sugaring voicing tool so that the needles were 2 mm, somewhat shorter than I had been using. Then I tuned the piano and carefully listened and found some clumps of notes here and there that could use some sugaring. That was all I did besides also fixing a gross mismatch in fit between hammer and strings on G4 right in the middle of the piano. I ended up being proud of my work and very comfortable with the sound of this piano. As it turned out the voicing was "almost there" but uneven, giving the impression of being too bright. This was quite a small change in the voicing of the piano. Thanks, everyone. I appreciate the help. I am skittish about using a ball PEEN hammer on piano hammers; I have broken tails before during voicing, and watching Foy in the video didn't help because he really seemed to be wailing away. I'll try it when I work up the nerve... Kent On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Fred Sturm wrote: > > > I would be hesitant to use the ball pean technique in Kent's situation - > maybe very lightly. A couple reasons: > First, it would tend to negate any una corda work that had been done > (assuming it had been done) > Second, in the middle of fall semester is not a good time to experiment on > the prime concert instrument in a busy hall. One wants to act with a lot of > caution, "evolving" the instrument bit by bit. > > Perhaps more to the point, while I wouldn't say never, I would tend not to > use this kind of technique on lacquered hammers. That has to do with my own > philosophy and procedures around the use of lacquer. I like to use the > minimum material possible to get the desired effect, and to use the minimum > manipulation of the hammers following application. My mental image is that I > have felt that is not so dense, with a lot of space (relatively, compared to > hard pressed) between individual fibers. What I am doing is stiffening those > fibers enough to give the needed brilliance of attack, and power for > forceful playing. This stiffness substitutes for the additional density in > hard press. > > Inserting needles into such a lacquered felt has a more focused effect > than on hard pressed, because of the extra air space. The needles break down > the lacquer structure in the fibers right around the needle, but don't have > much effect farther out. With hard pressed, fibers are pushing on fibers > more, so the effect is broadcast to a wider area. As I see it (and in the > way I operate - with very controlled, focused insertion of needles) a > lacquered hammer should be voiced by creating a kind of honeycomb structure, > with stiff fibers that haven't been affected by needles, and more pliant > ones that haven't. Done with finesse, you end up with a tone that "sparkles" > without being brittle and harsh. But it is the fact that there is this mix > of stiffness that creates this effect. > > Hammering is at odds with my image: it would tend to break down the > lacquer induced stiffness everywhere the hammer hit, creating a single > degree of "lack of stiffness" down to some degree of depth. There would > still be stiffness below for power, but the attack sound would probably lose > the "sparkle" I am after (and that I graduate using tiny needles). > > Admittedly, this is a theoretical objection: I haven't tried it on > lacquered hammers. And I guess I am simply happy with the results I get with > lacquer, so reluctant to try another technique that is at odds with my > mental model, lacking experimental instruments I am dissatisfied with (all > my practice room grands have hard pressed hammers at this point). > > "A 2 oz ball pean hammer can be used to work and massage the surface > without damaging the fibers or diminishing power. Support the tails and > work over the strike area of the hammer with the pean end. This can > sometimes have a great or even miraculous effect on juiced or hot pressed > hammers that are particularly hard at the surface." > ------------------------------------------- > Fred Sturm > University of New Mexico > fssturm@unm.edu > "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - > Einstein > ------------------------------------------- > > > >

Kent,
Your mention of the fitting issue is really apropos. The more I have focused on getting good mating, with the foundation of leveled strings and a very straight crown line, along with refined travel and square, the fewer problems I have found in voicing. This seems especially to be so when it is a question of any given note "sticking out" at some given volume level/velocity. The thing we tend to do is reach for the needles, when we should be checking and refining the mating.

The symptom of notes sticking out unexpectedly is one I have experienced all my life as a performer. Not so on finely prepped pianos where mating is meticulous. That sound is often zingy, and we misinterpret it as front duplex or a voicing issue. Having even a few notes that are doing this gives an impression about the tone of the whole piano.

"That was all I did besides also fixing a gross
mismatch in fit between hammer and strings on G4 right in the middle of the
piano."
-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

Hi Kent and Fred,

Kent.  Glad it worked out....   Fred.  I'm not at all wanting to negate needling methods.  Your concise method and descriptions are great and won from hard earned experience.  I appreciate your detailed descriptions of technique.    I do want to get my point across about the ball peen method. It's more of a felt conditioning method after which more concise needling may be done.   Think about this...  would you be skittish or hesitant to wail away at the striking surface of  hammer felt with a steel hammer head that has a  narrow edge wedge face with a radius of say 0.020"?  If you turn around piano hammer hitting string to string hitting piano hammer that what you would have with a 17.5 gauge wire.  So really the piano wire is wailing against the hammer felt whenever the piano is played.   Compare this with a pall peen radius which is more like 0.250".   I expect that the effect gentler but deeper with the ball peen and the extent of the effect may be easily controlled by the strength of the blow.   Stephan Paulello, the renowned French piano designer, has been using the technique for several years and reported to me that it is like the effect of "playing in" the hammer but instead of taking months it takes minutes.   

Hope you get a chance to experiment with the method and report back to us all at some point.

Regards,

David Stanwood

>From: Kent Swafford
>Subject: Sweetening

<snip>The verdict is in and we did OK. The pianist said, "Whatever you did, the
>piano was better; it sounded good."<snip>

>I am skittish about using a ball PEEN hammer on piano hammers; I have broken
>tails before during voicing, and watching Foy in the video didn't help
>because he really seemed to be wailing away. I'll try it when I work up the
>nerve...

>Kent

>On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Fred Sturm wrote:

> I would be hesitant to use the ball pean technique in Kent's situation -
> maybe very lightly. <snip>

David,

I am not wanting to be perceived as slamming the ball peen (with or without "blunt needle") method. It seems like a promising avenue, especially, as you say, for "a felt conditioning method after which more concise needling may be done." I was commenting on use in Kent's situation, with a well-prepared instrument under one's care to which people wanted subtle changes to be made. This is a situation I am very familiar with, and it calls for a different approach from that of an outsider coming in to try to make the best of an unknown instrument given a limited period of time, for instance.

My misgivings about using it with a lacquered hammer remain. Perhaps with an over-lacquered hammer in the "visiting technician" mode, trying to make the best of it for a concert, it is a good method to have available. But the analogy of peening compared to the hammer hitting the string does not resonate with me. First, the string may have the same diameter, but it is not fixed. It moves away from the hammer on impact. The peen is solid and drives into the felt. If I want to break down lacquer, peening is probably effective in making the sound more mellow, reducing attack brilliance/harshness. Playing a lacquered hammer against strings makes the attack even more brilliant/harsh in my experience. So the two are not really analogous. Though if your point is that the peen doesn't really cause damage to the felt, I agree.

I will certainly experiment with the next overly hard set of hammers (hard pressed) I come across. Over-lacquered I prefer to wash out. I haven't had any success at getting a good sound from an over-lacquered hammer, just "less bad," and I am pretty certain that would be the case with peening as well, as the basic condition of "petrified felt" in the interior and shoulders would remain. You would simply be softening the surface for the most part, similar to what small needles do. The resilience needed for a good spectrum of tone would still be lacking, because of all the solids in the interstices of the fibers.

"Hope you get a chance to experiment with the method and report back to us all at some point."
-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
-------------------------------------------
I don't think it is as odd as it sounds.  I've known a number of people (including myself) who do needling, deep and otherwise, crown or elsewhere who finish the task by flipping over the voicing tool and wapping around the crown to compact the felt in the crown area or release the just needled compression in the shoulders.  I've certainly seen Wally Brooks do this on many occasions.

I saw and heard this technique practiced last saturday, compass needles on the crown followed by the ball peen hammer.  It does wonderful things in a short period of time.  It sounds like he is brutalizing the hammer, but that is not the case.  I'm inclined to think that his ball peen ball is a better way to do it than the tail of my voicing tool.

I say try it out on some left over hammers you have laying around, then make up your mind.

Will Truitt







Original Message:
Sent: 10-21-2011 12:16
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Sweetening

David,

I am not wanting to be perceived as slamming the ball peen (with or without "blunt needle") method. It seems like a promising avenue, especially, as you say, for "a felt conditioning method after which more concise needling may be done." I was commenting on use in Kent's situation, with a well-prepared instrument under one's care to which people wanted subtle changes to be made. This is a situation I am very familiar with, and it calls for a different approach from that of an outsider coming in to try to make the best of an unknown instrument given a limited period of time, for instance.

My misgivings about using it with a lacquered hammer remain. Perhaps with an over-lacquered hammer in the "visiting technician" mode, trying to make the best of it for a concert, it is a good method to have available. But the analogy of peening compared to the hammer hitting the string does not resonate with me. First, the string may have the same diameter, but it is not fixed. It moves away from the hammer on impact. The peen is solid and drives into the felt. If I want to break down lacquer, peening is probably effective in making the sound more mellow, reducing attack brilliance/harshness. Playing a lacquered hammer against strings makes the attack even more brilliant/harsh in my experience. So the two are not really analogous. Though if your point is that the peen doesn't really cause damage to the felt, I agree.

I will certainly experiment with the next overly hard set of hammers (hard pressed) I come across. Over-lacquered I prefer to wash out. I haven't had any success at getting a good sound from an over-lacquered hammer, just "less bad," and I am pretty certain that would be the case with peening as well, as the basic condition of "petrified felt" in the interior and shoulders would remain. You would simply be softening the surface for the most part, similar to what small needles do. The resilience needed for a good spectrum of tone would still be lacking, because of all the solids in the interstices of the fibers.

"Hope you get a chance to experiment with the method and report back to us all at some point."
-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

Hi Will,

I pound on the head of hammers with the heel of my voicing tool following needling as standard practice, too (tails supported, not just shanks). Yamaha guys like to use the piano strings, muting the strings and pounding on the keys, for the same purpose. I repeat, I am not arguing against the use of a peen hammer, or the blunt needle tool. My arguments have been very specifically about using that technique with lacquered hammers. The precise details of what we do, in exactly what circumstances, are very important.

Peening is in many ways the equivalent of "voice gripping" in that it exercises the felt. I have no problem with that, and can see that it would be effective in many circumstances. With hard pressed hammers, I would still think that opening up shoulders would be necessary for the fullest spectrum of tone, judging from years of experience. Surface work only goes so far. The entire structure of the hammer felt and its ability to "spring" (resilience) is very important, and the effects of working at the crown are limited. The effects of peening may extend somewhat deeper, but only so far.

  "I've known a number of people (including myself) who do needling, deep and otherwise, crown or elsewhere who finish the task by flipping over the voicing tool and wapping around the crown to compact the felt in the crown area or release the just needled compression in the shoulders.  I've certainly seen Wally Brooks do this on many occasions."
-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
-------------------------------------------
Hi Fred:

I've been doing pretty much what you describe with shoulder deep needling on harder hammers (Renner, Able) to open up the hammers and get bloom, body, and color out of the hammers.  So as far as that part is concerned, you are talking to a fellow member of the choir.   All that shoulder work can add a lot of tension to the crown felt, so I will often machine gun shallow needle the crown 2 - 3 mm in to release that tension.  But I have been doing it with regular needles.

I am going to order some of the compass needles as well as a 2 oz. ball peen hammer.  I am looking forward to trying that out along with deep shoulder needling on some Renner hammers.  What is interesting to me is the fact that the compass needle has a tapered point, which will spread the fibers at the top of the hammer the most, and taper down the point as it penetrates the hammer.  It is the combination of this technique with the ball end of the hammer that creates the effect.  When I heard this the first time, I was surprised just how much it opened the hammers up without shoulder needling.  It will be interesting to combine the two. 

Will



Original Message:
Sent: 10-21-2011 17:01
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Sweetening

Hi Will,

I pound on the head of hammers with the heel of my voicing tool following needling as standard practice, too (tails supported, not just shanks). Yamaha guys like to use the piano strings, muting the strings and pounding on the keys, for the same purpose. I repeat, I am not arguing against the use of a peen hammer, or the blunt needle tool. My arguments have been very specifically about using that technique with lacquered hammers. The precise details of what we do, in exactly what circumstances, are very important.

Peening is in many ways the equivalent of "voice gripping" in that it exercises the felt. I have no problem with that, and can see that it would be effective in many circumstances. With hard pressed hammers, I would still think that opening up shoulders would be necessary for the fullest spectrum of tone, judging from years of experience. Surface work only goes so far. The entire structure of the hammer felt and its ability to "spring" (resilience) is very important, and the effects of working at the crown are limited. The effects of peening may extend somewhat deeper, but only so far.

  "I've known a number of people (including myself) who do needling, deep and otherwise, crown or elsewhere who finish the task by flipping over the voicing tool and wapping around the crown to compact the felt in the crown area or release the just needled compression in the shoulders.  I've certainly seen Wally Brooks do this on many occasions."
-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

Another perspective on David's peening/compass needle concept...except from the perspective of a soft...ah, yes.. Ronsen Bacon hammer.

Like so many other decisions of what works in the voicing realm, it depends on how responsive the belly is. I have found in my own bellies, which are quite responsive, that soft felt can need to be brought down as well as up. I have tried the peening/compass needle on bacons with success...but only as part of a strategy, not the whole strategy...and mostly from the 4th octave down.

I have not had to address any untoward re-mating mid-tenor down, but, again specifically on soft hammers, treble often did require re-mating.

Also, though the compass needle and/or peening was not terribly effective in the soft hammer treble, the crown was not destroyed, in that I was able to bring the treble to a sweet spot with other techniques after the peening.

The more I use this technique, the more I see it as a "prep" to create the crown conditions that will allow me to further fine tune with other armaments.

What I rally like about it though is that it addresses the crown directly...something that I've known I wanted to do, but couldn't figure how to do without risking rediculously short term effects, or bashing the crown into oblivion.

Jim Ialeggio  
-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

Think about this...  would you be skittish or hesitant to wail away at the striking surface of  hammer felt with a steel hammer head that has a  narrow edge wedge face with a radius of say 0.020"?  If you turn around piano hammer hitting string to string hitting piano hammer that what you would have with a 17.5 gauge wire.  So really the piano wire is wailing against the hammer felt whenever the piano is played.   Compare this with a pall peen radius which is more like 0.250".   I expect that the effect gentler but deeper with the ball peen and the extent of the effect may be easily controlled by the strength of the blow.   Stephan Paulello, the renowned French piano designer, has been using the technique for several years and reported to me that it is like the effect of "playing in" the hammer but instead of taking months it takes minutes.   

On the subject of addressing the crown directly, I want to say again that small needles are very effective there. The extra dense felt of the crown doesn't allow #6 and similar needles, even single needle, to do the kind of loosening of fibers they can do in the shoulders in most relatively dense hammers. Right off the crown to one side or the other, yes, but not really into the crown. "Sugaring" with just the tips of the needles is kind of OK, but rather temporary as it doesn't penetrate deep enough to be lasting. Penetrate more, and you kill the hammer.

But #10 and #12 needles can actually penetrate without tearing big holes in the felt. This is particularly noticeable when doing the top octave. With a #6, you get either no effect (just the tip) or tear the felt to shreds. #12 goes in to a depth of 2 - 3 mm, spreading fibers, without undue resistance. A really nasty, shrill tone can be brought down to a tone that still penetrates but has lost the ugly edge, with a few insertions, 1 - 3 per string groove, or sometimes just straight across the crown (right angles to the strings).

The caveat is that these little needles can break easily. They are strong enough to insert, but need to be inserted straight, not rolled, and for #12, 3 mm is about as long as you can go. But that is enough to do some pretty effective work, as I have found out over the past five years of experiment.

"What I rally like about it though is that it addresses the crown directly...something that I've known I wanted to do, but couldn't figure how to do without risking rediculously short term effects, or bashing the crown into oblivion."
-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-23-2011 10:39
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Sweetening

Another perspective on David's peening/compass needle concept...except from the perspective of a soft...ah, yes.. Ronsen Bacon hammer.

Like so many other decisions of what works in the voicing realm, it depends on how responsive the belly is. I have found in my own bellies, which are quite responsive, that soft felt can need to be brought down as well as up. I have tried the peening/compass needle on bacons with success...but only as part of a strategy, not the whole strategy...and mostly from the 4th octave down.

I have not had to address any untoward re-mating mid-tenor down, but, again specifically on soft hammers, treble often did require re-mating.

Also, though the compass needle and/or peening was not terribly effective in the soft hammer treble, the crown was not destroyed, in that I was able to bring the treble to a sweet spot with other techniques after the peening.

The more I use this technique, the more I see it as a "prep" to create the crown conditions that will allow me to further fine tune with other armaments.

What I rally like about it though is that it addresses the crown directly...something that I've known I wanted to do, but couldn't figure how to do without risking rediculously short term effects, or bashing the crown into oblivion.

Jim Ialeggio  
-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

Think about this...  would you be skittish or hesitant to wail away at the striking surface of  hammer felt with a steel hammer head that has a  narrow edge wedge face with a radius of say 0.020"?  If you turn around piano hammer hitting string to string hitting piano hammer that what you would have with a 17.5 gauge wire.  So really the piano wire is wailing against the hammer felt whenever the piano is played.   Compare this with a pall peen radius which is more like 0.250".   I expect that the effect gentler but deeper with the ball peen and the extent of the effect may be easily controlled by the strength of the blow.   Stephan Paulello, the renowned French piano designer, has been using the technique for several years and reported to me that it is like the effect of "playing in" the hammer but instead of taking months it takes minutes.   

Fred,

With your small 10-12 needle tools, how did you insert them in the wooden handles? Micro drill bits, or spin em in with a drill press?

Jim Ialeggio

-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------



On the subject of addressing the crown directly...


... #10 and #12 needles can actually penetrate without tearing big holes in the felt.

I use micro bits, about #70, in a drill press. For a pin vise to get down to that size, I pull the end out of one of those black handled pin vises from Schaff, if that means anything to you. But there are collets for Dremel that will work as well. It would certainly be possible to make a slot with an exacto saw or the like, and just space and CA. I tried and decided I wanted to have more control of spacing and length (hard to get them all to lie still just perfectly and then get the CA in and set without disturbing things), so I measure and centerpunch with a needle, then drill to a consistent depth. I use CA to fix them in place.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-25-2011 08:10
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Sweetening

Fred,

With your small 10-12 needle tools, how did you insert them in the wooden handles? Micro drill bits, or spin em in with a drill press?

Jim Ialeggio

-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

I have made many of my own voicing tools and what I have found is you can put a needle in
your drill press and use it as a drill bit. Another way is to get a pair of pliers, take hold of the needle
and with force it will go in. This way you can easily control spacing and depth. I do this with maple.

-------------------------------------------
Jack Houweling
Delta BC
604 970-3371
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-25-2011 10:09
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Sweetening

I use micro bits, about #70, in a drill press. For a pin vise to get down to that size, I pull the end out of one of those black handled pin vises from Schaff, if that means anything to you. But there are collets for Dremel that will work as well. It would certainly be possible to make a slot with an exacto saw or the like, and just space and CA. I tried and decided I wanted to have more control of spacing and length (hard to get them all to lie still just perfectly and then get the CA in and set without disturbing things), so I measure and centerpunch with a needle, then drill to a consistent depth. I use CA to fix them in place.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-25-2011 08:10
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Sweetening

Fred,

With your small 10-12 needle tools, how did you insert them in the wooden handles? Micro drill bits, or spin em in with a drill press?

Jim Ialeggio

-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

Jack,
Inserting needles by pressing in with pliers, I assume you start by snipping off the eye? How long a needle can you insert that way? What technique are you using? (rotating back and forth while pressing? 1 - 2 mm at a time protruding from the pliers? That kind of thing).
I tried inserting a #8 needle into hornbeam by pressing with pliers and had zero luck. Can't imagine getting five needles in about 1.5 mm apart. But maybe I am missing a detail of technique that would make it easier.


-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------





Original Message:
Sent: 10-25-2011 10:49
From: Jack Houweling
Subject: Sweetening

I have made many of my own voicing tools and what I have found is you can put a needle in
your drill press and use it as a drill bit. Another way is to get a pair of pliers, take hold of the needle
and with force it will go in. This way you can easily control spacing and depth. I do this with maple.

-------------------------------------------
Jack Houweling
Delta BC
604 970-3371
-------------------------------------------

1) Cut a hardwood handle to the desired shape.
2) Use a fine razor saw to cut a slot in the end of the tool where the needles will go.
3) Cut needles to length.
4) Press needles into the slot and align them.
5) Fill the gap with medium viscosity CA glue and spray lightly with accelerator.

(Various hemostats and small pliers have grooved jaws, which can be cleverly used to space the needles evenly)
-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@mindspring.com
704-536-7926

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-25-2011 12:26
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Sweetening

Jack,
Inserting needles by pressing in with pliers, I assume you start by snipping off the eye? How long a needle can you insert that way? What technique are you using? (rotating back and forth while pressing? 1 - 2 mm at a time protruding from the pliers? That kind of thing).
I tried inserting a #8 needle into hornbeam by pressing with pliers and had zero luck. Can't imagine getting five needles in about 1.5 mm apart. But maybe I am missing a detail of technique that would make it easier.


-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------





Original Message:
Sent: 10-25-2011 10:49
From: Jack Houweling
Subject: Sweetening

I have made many of my own voicing tools and what I have found is you can put a needle in
your drill press and use it as a drill bit. Another way is to get a pair of pliers, take hold of the needle
and with force it will go in. This way you can easily control spacing and depth. I do this with maple.

-------------------------------------------
Jack Houweling
Delta BC
604 970-3371
-------------------------------------------

Ed, Fred and others,

I am intrigued by your approaches and discoveries, as I am certain others in this voicing discussion group are as well.

Thank you for your posts, your discoveries and to your detail, to potentially better voicing techniques for all of us.

Sincerely,

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv
-------------------------------------------

Hi Fred and Ed, 

I replied this morning on my phone but it did not go through.

Here it is again.

With pliers and the sharp end of a new needle I make some 
pilot holes into a dowel maybe going in around 1/4 inch and any desired
spacing. I then shape the end of the  handle on a sander.
Next I cut needles, eye end, at an angle giving them a point. 
Length of the needles does not have to be precise,
then I push them in with pliers making them all level.
-------------------------------------------
Jack Houweling
Delta BC
604 970-3371
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-25-2011 12:26
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Sweetening

Jack,
Inserting needles by pressing in with pliers, I assume you start by snipping off the eye? How long a needle can you insert that way? What technique are you using? (rotating back and forth while pressing? 1 - 2 mm at a time protruding from the pliers? That kind of thing).
I tried inserting a #8 needle into hornbeam by pressing with pliers and had zero luck. Can't imagine getting five needles in about 1.5 mm apart. But maybe I am missing a detail of technique that would make it easier.


-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------





Original Message:
Sent: 10-25-2011 10:49
From: Jack Houweling
Subject: Sweetening

I have made many of my own voicing tools and what I have found is you can put a needle in
your drill press and use it as a drill bit. Another way is to get a pair of pliers, take hold of the needle
and with force it will go in. This way you can easily control spacing and depth. I do this with maple.

-------------------------------------------
Jack Houweling
Delta BC
604 970-3371
-------------------------------------------

Thanks, Jack, those details make all the difference.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-25-2011 22:19
From: Jack Houweling
Subject: Sweetening


Hi Fred and Ed, 

I replied this morning on my phone but it did not go through.

Here it is again.

With pliers and the sharp end of a new needle I make some 
pilot holes into a dowel maybe going in around 1/4 inch and any desired
spacing. I then shape the end of the  handle on a sander.
Next I cut needles, eye end, at an angle giving them a point. 
Length of the needles does not have to be precise,
then I push them in with pliers making them all level.
-------------------------------------------
Jack Houweling
Delta BC
604 970-3371
-------------------------------------------

Fred,

#10's were readily available so I gave them a shot...single needle in a standard collet type voicing tool. It seemed to be safe and effective.

The big question is how long will it last...I will follow it closely, but what kind of tonal stability are you getting with these tiny needles in the cuts, or vacinity?

Jim Ialeggio



-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

When I do una corda voicing, usually with #10, an insertion of a five needle tool three times at the full pedal position
 (12, 2, 10 o'clock or so, 2.5 to 3 mm depth), that tends to last very well. It will still give a difference of timbre after a good solid year of heavy use, but will need touch up. (I also do an insertion between the string grooves and the full position, for a gradation). #12 I use direct in the string grooves, and it tends to fluff up the grooves, restore them to shape (not quite) and back to an acceptable voice. I may do that twice in a year on a heavy use instrument (takes me maybe 15 minutes, all hammers). When it is getting too strident, a single needle, #6 or so, next to the crown is often needed to bring things down. Or perhaps small needles with the three insertions. The little needles are more for the attack component at lower volumes.

Understand that I am talking institutional here. Private homes with less use, I find this sort of treatment lasts quite a bit longer.
-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-26-2011 08:47
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Sweetening

Fred,

#10's were readily available so I gave them a shot...single needle in a standard collet type voicing tool. It seemed to be safe and effective.

The big question is how long will it last...I will follow it closely, but what kind of tonal stability are you getting with these tiny needles in the cuts, or vacinity?

Jim Ialeggio



-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

Jo-Anne Fabrics carries #12. Here is an on-line source.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-26-2011 08:47
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Sweetening

Fred,

#10's were readily available so I gave them a shot...single needle in a standard collet type voicing tool. It seemed to be safe and effective.

The big question is how long will it last...I will follow it closely, but what kind of tonal stability are you getting with these tiny needles in the cuts, or vacinity?

Jim Ialeggio



-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

Regarding source for needles, and just to put in a plug for our local, brick and morter  economy, I offer the following alternative:

http://www.colonialneedle.com/


-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-26-2011 10:09
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Sweetening

Jo-Anne Fabrics carries #12. Here is an on-line source.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-26-2011 08:47
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Sweetening

Fred,

#10's were readily available so I gave them a shot...single needle in a standard collet type voicing tool. It seemed to be safe and effective.

The big question is how long will it last...I will follow it closely, but what kind of tonal stability are you getting with these tiny needles in the cuts, or vacinity?

Jim Ialeggio



-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

Hi Kent,

It may well be that the loss of translation is happening in regards to the application of the adjective "bright."  They may indeed desire the effects of sugar coating the hammers to knock off the edge at attack - effectively making it a bit less "bright" to me (and maybe you and others).  In your case, either adjective (bright, sweet) could mean so many things.  But based upon the overall assessment of the piano, I'd suggest sugar coating is heading in the right direction.

-------------------------------------------
William R. Monroe
Madison, WI
www.a440piano.net
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 10-15-2011 22:01
From: Kent Swafford
Subject: Sweetening


OK, the piano is a Steinway D new in February of this year.

Everyone agrees that this is a nice piano.

But I have been hearing some "buts"...

I don't know for sure whether these are the new denser hammers. (It is hard to tell, for one thing, since there has traditionally been much variation in Steinway hammers from specimen to specimen.) I did the Stanwood Precision Touch Design on this piano and the hammers were of normal weights.

I am reasonably certain that the hammer crowns were juiced with acetone and plastic before we saw the piano in the selection room.

The hammers do not seem to respond well to voicing. I have said that the piano is brighter than I am comfortable with.

This week a request came through to "sweeten" the sound of the piano; they said they wanted some "sugaring" done to the hammers.

I replied that I could conservatively needle the strike point area to soften the attack a bit. I mentioned that there had seemed to be a general desire expressed to keep the piano bright.

An seemingly annoyed reply came back telling me that they wanted me to sweeten the sound, not make it less bright.

In general, my experience here is that requests like this are always valid, always referring to some reality of voicing; the only problem may be in communicating about the concern.

The question is, does anyone have any ideas about "sugaring" that wouldn't involve strike point needling?

Thanks much.
-------------------------------------------
Kent Swafford
Lenexa KS
913-631-8227
-------------------------------------------

I agree with a previous assessment that sweeten may imply sugar coating the strike point and the edges of the hammer but you might want to consider needling horizontally by the front and back shoulders.  This will give a bloom to the tone and still keep the brightness since you are not needling the strike point. In retrospect, before doing all this, I would first try steaming the hammers first to see if that takes a little edge off the hammers; then if it still needs to be "sweetened", I would go with the needling mentioned above.

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Andrew Saderman
Forest Hills NY
718-263-6508
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Original Message:
Sent: 10-15-2011 22:29
From: William Monroe
Subject: Sweetening

Hi Kent,

It may well be that the loss of translation is happening in regards to the application of the adjective "bright."  They may indeed desire the effects of sugar coating the hammers to knock off the edge at attack - effectively making it a bit less "bright" to me (and maybe you and others).  In your case, either adjective (bright, sweet) could mean so many things.  But based upon the overall assessment of the piano, I'd suggest sugar coating is heading in the right direction.

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William R. Monroe
Madison, WI
www.a440piano.net
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Original Message:
Sent: 10-15-2011 22:01
From: Kent Swafford
Subject: Sweetening


OK, the piano is a Steinway D new in February of this year.

Everyone agrees that this is a nice piano.

But I have been hearing some "buts"...

I don't know for sure whether these are the new denser hammers. (It is hard to tell, for one thing, since there has traditionally been much variation in Steinway hammers from specimen to specimen.) I did the Stanwood Precision Touch Design on this piano and the hammers were of normal weights.

I am reasonably certain that the hammer crowns were juiced with acetone and plastic before we saw the piano in the selection room.

The hammers do not seem to respond well to voicing. I have said that the piano is brighter than I am comfortable with.

This week a request came through to "sweeten" the sound of the piano; they said they wanted some "sugaring" done to the hammers.

I replied that I could conservatively needle the strike point area to soften the attack a bit. I mentioned that there had seemed to be a general desire expressed to keep the piano bright.

An seemingly annoyed reply came back telling me that they wanted me to sweeten the sound, not make it less bright.

In general, my experience here is that requests like this are always valid, always referring to some reality of voicing; the only problem may be in communicating about the concern.

The question is, does anyone have any ideas about "sugaring" that wouldn't involve strike point needling?

Thanks much.
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Kent Swafford
Lenexa KS
913-631-8227
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I'll suggest two things. One is single needle in line with the string grooves, either side, "somewhat" deep (5 mm? experiment) 2 mm from the middle, another insertion 4 mm, each side. Closer to the mid point, angled directly down. Farther out, angled somewhat inward. Note that this is experimental, see how much, and where, seems to get a result leading in the right direction. I have found I can change the character of a set pretty evenly and successfully by carefully reproducing the same action on every hammer (graduating as you move up or down the scale). Good magnification and lighting is very helpful so as to be able to be really consistent. 

Second is small diameter needles, shallow, in the crown, in the string grooves. I am talking about #12 needles, about 2 mm long, about 1.5 mm apart. This produces a subtle effect that does not lose the sparkle but eases the harshness, so to speak. I have posted photos of the tools I use on the caut list (old listserv), but not here, so I will do so now. The "tools" are made of those strips of hornbeam that space (or used to) Renner shanks, but could be anything similar. I make a groove in the end of the wood with a file, punch locations with a big needle, drill holes with small bits from my #61 - 80 set of numbered bits, cut needles to appropriate lengths, insert so they are as even as I can, apply CA glue to fix. The handle is pretty self explanatory, a friction fit. 

I have been using this system very successfully for many years now. It might be the sort of thing they are after. In any case, it is subtle enough that it is unlikely to cause enough "damage" to be hard to recover from (simply by applying a bit of solvent to the crown to re-amalgamate hardener).

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Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
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Original Message:
Sent: 10-15-2011 22:01
From: Kent Swafford
Subject: Sweetening


OK, the piano is a Steinway D new in February of this year.

Everyone agrees that this is a nice piano.

But I have been hearing some "buts"...

I don't know for sure whether these are the new denser hammers. (It is hard to tell, for one thing, since there has traditionally been much variation in Steinway hammers from specimen to specimen.) I did the Stanwood Precision Touch Design on this piano and the hammers were of normal weights.

I am reasonably certain that the hammer crowns were juiced with acetone and plastic before we saw the piano in the selection room.

The hammers do not seem to respond well to voicing. I have said that the piano is brighter than I am comfortable with.

This week a request came through to "sweeten" the sound of the piano; they said they wanted some "sugaring" done to the hammers.

I replied that I could conservatively needle the strike point area to soften the attack a bit. I mentioned that there had seemed to be a general desire expressed to keep the piano bright.

An seemingly annoyed reply came back telling me that they wanted me to sweeten the sound, not make it less bright.

In general, my experience here is that requests like this are always valid, always referring to some reality of voicing; the only problem may be in communicating about the concern.

The question is, does anyone have any ideas about "sugaring" that wouldn't involve strike point needling?

Thanks much.
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Kent Swafford
Lenexa KS
913-631-8227
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>hard to recover from (simply by applying a bit of solvent to the crown to re-amalgamate hardener).

Since you mentioned the possibility of hardener in the hammer, my first thought was to apply acetone and use an air compressor to force some plastic material away from the strike point.

But with the subtle difference you need, I like Fred's method better because it is more controlled. It would produce immediate results with less uncertainty than from the delayed result of acetone and air which would need needling to even out anyway.
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Regards,

Jon Page