Voicing

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  • 1.  Doping logistics?

    Posted 10-23-2011 10:17
    This is a logistical question for those who often/sometimes/occasionally incorporate some amount of doping into their fine tuning of a voicing.

    I sometimes find very small amounts of dope near crown (I use shellac, but whatever) useful in fine tuning and developing the tone I'm looking for. However, I mostly do this in the shop, where I can then let the dope dry, come back the next day, and in short order see, what I've got and continue fine tuning from there. 

    Logistically, this makes sense in the shop. I can see it working in an institutional setting where you are physically near the pianos on successive days. But I can't see how it would be logistically possible to do this doping/waiting/finetuning in a customer's home, where the cost of returning for 15 minutes the next day is so great, and where if you push the dry time, you really are just guessing at what you have achieved.

    I get the sense that there are some who use doping as their predominant technique, Mark Wienert comes to mind...From a shear logistical perspective how do they do it?

    Jim Ialeggio  

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 2.  RE:Doping logistics?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-23-2011 11:21
    Jim,  I pretty much approach doping the way you do.  If I have day or days to let it dry (it will continue to harden for a few days, not just 24 hours) then I don't have any problem with doping.  Just yesterday, one of our piano professors had a concert. On Friday we both listened to the voicing on one of our Steinway D's.  He and I loved everything except for about 5 notes around the bass/tenor break.  He wanted a little more brightness of attack. I thought about adding a couple drops of acetone on it as that's helped on Steinway hammers.  I found, on a practice piano that I couldn't control with the right amount how much to put on without it getting over bright or no difference, really.  I only had yesterday morning to concert tune and wouldn't have had time to needle out any pinging notes that afternoon, so I opted out.  This will wait until Christmas break when I'll have 2 weeks to mess with it.  The professor agreed this to be most prudent and thanked me for not doing it.

    I, too would like to hear from those techs, especially in concert situations, what they do if using chemicals. Do you also not do it on the day of a concert, or when the customer is a long distance away if not visiting that area in the next day or two.

    Paul




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    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu
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  • 3.  RE:Doping logistics?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-23-2011 11:47
    I don't personally see a logistical issue.  We make the choices we make and move forward as the situation requires.  I use both lacquer and keytop solutions when necessary for voicing, depending upon the circumstance.

    IN GENERAL (in other words, I acknowledge many possible exceptions - the following is meant to serve as a couple examples):

    If I won't be returning to the area, dope with keytop/acetone first, tune/whatever else, voice last.  I can get relatively dependable results.

    If I know I'll be back, I can choose to use lacquer or keytop, depending upon the instrument, sound preference, etc.

    If it's a piano that "requires" lacquer, or requires the most subtle of voicing results, then the client will have to understand that it "requires" a return trip - whatever the cost.

    We just do what we must to achieve the results we must.  It's not a logistical problem, to me it's simply another educational issue to spend some time with our clients on.  Education goes a long way.

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    William R. Monroe
    Madison, WI
    www.a440piano.net
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  • 4.  RE:Doping logistics?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-23-2011 15:22
    For fast, subtle results, a couple techniques:
    Pure acetone to dissolve and reharden solids already in the hammer. To have good control, use a hypo oiler with the small needle. Get rid of the first spurt that wants to come out on a wad of paper towel or something. Then put precisely one drop per string groove (or another precise amount, 2 - 3 drops). It isn't "instant" but is quite fast in doing what it is going to do. Within half an hour you pretty much know, as long as you don't use more than about 3 drops.

    Acetone and keytop or acetone and lacquer: dip a piece of music wire in the solution. Lie it in individual string grooves. Once, twice, three times. Quite fast results. Just surface, because it doesn't penetrate much at all (more with 2 - 3 times)

    Alternately, use a paddle with very fine sandpaper, in the 1000 grit range, like Mannino and the Kawai guys use. Mine is 4" x 6" or so with 600 one side, 1000/1500 on the other. Being very careful to maintain the profile of the hammer (keep the crown straight), rub vigorously in an arc across the crown. This removes a tiny bit of fuzz, seems to refelt the fibers a bit, makes for a clearer attack sound. It works better on hard pressed, but has an effect on lacquer hammers as well.

    BTW, on urgent request of a faculty member (and with misgivings), I lightly lacquered all the hammers on her studio piano with lacquer in acetone first thing one morning (6:1), and it was pretty much where it ended up by noon that same day. I was pleasantly surprised. Lightly means on the crowns, penetrating about 2 - 4 mm. I had earlier done all the cores of the hammers from the sides, so this was a matter of gaining attack. It was needed, but there was lack of communication (on her side), and suddenly the next day some hot shot was coming to town and they were rehearsing in her studio. And "suddenly" the piano just sounded really dull to her. Don't ask. ;-) Not my favorite relationship. Anyway, I learned something. (I wouldn't have done it in a concert hall).
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    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
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  • 5.  RE: Doping logistics?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-24-2011 10:29
    Acetone and plastic. If a set of hammers still needs lacquer in the field, then they should not have yet been placed into service. Apply acetone and plastic, do something else for a few minutes, then "play the note in" at intervals while it is drying. Playing in while drying has the added advantage of eliminating the dreaded acetone and plastic ping. Certainly within 30 minutes, probably much less, you'll know where you are and can touch up the voicing with needles. Kent PS -- Jim, you may wish to avoid using the term "tune" with regard to voicing. Our terminology is ambiguous enough without adding fuel to the fire. KES On Oct 23, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Jim Ialeggio wrote: > > > This is a logistical question for those who often/sometimes/occasionally incorporate some amount of doping into their fine tuning of a voicing. > > I sometimes find very small amounts of dope near crown (I use shellac, but whatever) useful in fine tuning and developing the tone I'm looking for. However, I mostly do this in the shop, where I can then let the dope dry, come back the next day, and in short order see, what I've got and continue fine tuning from there. > > Logistically, this makes sense in the shop. I can see it working in an institutional setting where you are physically near the pianos on successive days. But I can't see how it would be logistically possible to do this doping/waiting/finetuning in a customer's home, where the cost of returning for 15 minutes the next day is so great, and where if you push the dry time, you really are just guessing at what you have achieved. > > I get the sense that there are some who use doping as their predominant technique, Mark Wienert comes to mind...From a shear logistical perspective how do they do it? > > Jim Ialeggio > > ------------------------------------------- > Jim Ialeggio > grandpianosolutions.com > Shirley, MA > 978 425-9026 > ------------------------------------------- > >


  • 6.  RE:Doping logistics?

    Posted 10-24-2011 11:00
    Right you are, Kent.  I shall henceforth  refer to these fine voicing adjustments as...uhh, lets see...sniggling?...no...cajoling?...nah, no good...tickling?...nope, better not...make that tweaking...ahh, that sounds more professiorial...<G> Point well taken, thanks.

    Jim Ialeggio

    PS -- Jim, you may wish to avoid using the term "tune" with regard to voicing. Our terminology is ambiguous enough without adding fuel to the fire.










  • 7.  RE:Doping logistics?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-24-2011 11:10


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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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    Sometimes even begging doesn't work.....

    Will