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What's the secret to going faster?

  • 1.  What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-27-2014 21:46
    It takes me two and half hours to tune a piano.  I'm certain others probably don't take that long and I'm assuming there must be some little tips and tricks for going faster.  Do you have any?

    -------------------------------------------
    Gary Howell
    Melbourne FL
    [http://www.cranecreekpianos.com/]
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  • 2.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-27-2014 21:55
    The same as learning to play a piano, a whole lot of practice and a little bit of lessons

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    Thomas Black
    Decatur AL
    256-350-9315
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  • 3.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-27-2014 21:55
    The same as learning to play a piano, a whole lot of practice and a little bit of lessons

    -------------------------------------------
    Thomas Black
    Decatur AL
    256-350-9315
    -------------------------------------------





  • 4.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-27-2014 21:59
    They same as learning to play a piano a whole lot of practice and a little bit of lessons

    -------------------------------------------
    Thomas Black
    Decatur AL
    256-350-9315
    -------------------------------------------





  • 5.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2014 21:02
    Challenge yourself continually. If yo have your own piano or a practice piano all the better. Get a stopwatch and time various parts of your tuning.  Eg  Start with unisons.  Time the length to so an octave of unisons. Then try to better your time the next time you tune. Do the same with temperament, bass, high end etc..  Push yourself to better the times until you reach the efficiencies you are looking to achieve.  Same thing applies to every aspect in solo service piano work.  Key leveling, Hammer Hanging, Regulating, Stringing, and on and on.  
    As solo workers, keep in mind that you are your own critic. For better or for worse.   If you want to achieve high level efficiencies the secret is simple, and here it is...."there ARE no secrets"    

    Set your sights high and you will soar!
    Best regards,

    -------------------------------------------
    Gerry
    Gerald P. Cousins, RPT ~ Director of Piano Service and Resources
    West Chester University of PA
    gcousins@wcupa.edu
    -------------------------------------------








  • 6.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-27-2014 22:18

    Gary

    As Tommy said, other than practice, practice, practice, there is no real short cut to getting faster or better at what your doing.

    But one tip I tell students is: stop listening and start tuning. Whenever I've observed young and inexperienced tuners work, I see them spending too much time listening to an interval before they try to change the pitch. As soon as you hear that a string is out of tune, (or see that it's out of tune on your ETD), do something with the string, even if it's wrong. At least your making a change. It won't take you very long to learn which direction you're supposed to go. But in general, when the piano is flat, even a little bit, you know you're going to have to pull the pitch up. So do that, right away. Then when you're close, listen to the beats, and bring that baby home.

    Maybe I learned fast, but my first piano took me 8 hours. My second 2 hours, and by the time I did my 4th or 5th piano, my time was down to a little over an hour. Now, I've been told that I have a "fast ear". That I hear an out of tune interval and know what to do with it faster than most people. But then I know a lot of very good tuners who can tune in less than an hour. This is for run of the mill, in home pianos. Obviously a concert tuning will take a little longer, not counting regulation and voicing.

    So just keep at it, Gary, and maybe start doing what I suggested. Stop listening and start tuning

    Good luck.

    PS. If you're going to Atlanta for the convention, I would suggest you sign up for a tuning tutoring session. He or she can give you some tips.
    -------------------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 7.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-27-2014 23:45
    Practice speed tuning on pitch raises. Don't forget to first drop the tension, very little - just enough to hear the ping, to break the friction at the termination before pulling it up; it will save a few broken strings. Even if you don't hear the 'ping', it usually helps the string to render better. No more than 2 cps is necessary, if that much.

    I've heard one great tuner advise not to dwell on some pianos because they won't sound any better after a three hour tuning than with only a thirty minute tuning.

    The trick is to develop hammer technique. That takes practice and paying attention to the overall tuning at the end or at the next tuning. Tuning is an ever diminishing series of moving the tension sharp and flat of pitch to ascertain pin torsion. The last effort should be to nudge the pin slightly sharp to pitch (just enough to neutralize the torsion in the pin), to cause the front string segment to be slightly higher in tension than the speaking length. If you come down in tension to pitch, then the front segment is lower in tension than the speaking length and on a firm blow the tension will leak across the termination going out of tune. Higher tension in the front segment won't leak. This is using the friction in the front bearing points to your advantage. Fine tuning does not involve turning pins so much as it is addressing the torsion in the pin.

    If you are changing pitch, don't try to be too picky because it will change to the degree that the tension is changed. You are shoveling sand against the tide and fighting a loosing battle. With a minor pitch change you can be left with an appreciable tuning with a solid hammer technique. Subsequent tuning can refine the tuning. Remember, not all pianos are on the concert stage and a concert tuning is performed on a piano that is already in tune.

    Don't worry about pin torsion, or setting the pin, on a pitch change, go as fast as you can. Once you develop a solid hammer technique, your p/r will become more solid too.

    To recap, pitch corrections require speed; tuning requires accuracy. One day you'll reach speed with accuracy, just keep the accuracy in the tuning and the speed will follow.

    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 8.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-27-2014 22:23
    Gary, I have 2 suggestions:

    1- work faster
    2 - tune more pianos

    I know that sounds pretty simple, but that's what worked for me when I was starting out.

    -------------------------------------------
    Phil Bondi,RPT
    Bondi's Piano Service
    www.philbondi.com
    239-949-3688

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  • 9.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2014 15:51
    Here's my tip. Plan on going through the tuning twice. Step one: set a good solid temperament. Then mark your time. Step two: first pass, don't get fussy but try your best to be accurate, and go AS FAST as you can Step three: see how accurate you were and correct your mistakes Make a game out of it. Before you know it, you will be zipping through tunings like a center pin on protec. ------------------------------------------- David Estey, RPT www.EsteyPiano.com Piano Tuners Sales Tips for the week. FREE! Sign up here: http://coolstuffformusicians.com/fine-tuning-your-salesmanship Creating Harmony in a World filled with Discord. 1-800-ON A PIANO (662-7426) dave@esteypiano.com -------------------------------------------


  • 10.  RE: What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-27-2014 22:53
    On 1/27/2014 8:45 PM, Gary Howell via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > It takes me two and half hours to tune a piano. I'm certain others
    > probably don't take that long and I'm assuming there must be some
    > little tips and tricks for going faster. Do you have any?

    Tune in the attack, not the decay. Everything of any importance happens
    in the first half second. Listen faster. You'll tune faster, and with
    better stability.
    Ron N




  • 11.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-27-2014 23:49
    I don't provide service to any dealers these days, but used to do quite a bit of this work - subcontracting for a dealer and doing lots of "floor" tunings. "Piece work" did not pay very well so there was really no choice but to tune faster. The alternative was starvation wages. Nothing like having an incentive...

    Go to meetings and talk to more experienced technicians. If possible, watch experienced tuners work. Pay attention to every single movement you make. Over time you will learn to listen and work more efficiently. All of the other advice given here has been very good.

    I once heard Franz Mohr at a seminar say that he had seen many instances where a tuner spent so much time trying to achieve a perfect temperament that there wasn't enough time to tune the rest of the piano. Please, I am NOT advocating hasty, sloppy work. But, we can have a tendency to "over test". George Defebaugh used to say that you can test yourself out of business. The lesson? Find a few tests that work well for you and stick with them. Don't use every test you ever read about in an attempt to achieve a 100% perfect tuning - it doesn't exist anyway.   
    -------------------------------------------
    Gerry Johnston
    Haverhill, MA
    gj@gjpianotuner.com
    www.gjpianotuner.com
    (978) 372-2250
    -------------------------------------------








  • 12.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2014 00:57
    Lots of good suggestions already.

    A few other ideas -- if the piano is more than slightly out, multiple passes can save time. Make the first pass very fast, but as accurate as you can manage without slowing down. There's no point in getting the accuracy of the first pass greater than the changes you will make in the second pass. Always know where in the process you are, and which sections of the piano will move the furthest, and pay attention and dole out time accordingly. A slight overpull in the middle treble when you know the first tuning is going to sag downwards can save time, but only if you do it very quickly, almost subliminally. I don't like major overpulls -- I think that they are risky. A broken string can throw your total time right out the window.

    As a general principle, try to make minimal movements and changes. The less far a pin has to move, the more stability will be retained.

    Over time, you can make the repetitious motions, such as moving the tuning hammer from pin to pin, extremely neat and quick.

    If you wonder whether a string which is extremely close is sharp or flat, instead of testing it, just nudge it downward a very small amount. Then you know that it is flat.

    If you tend to take each string through the same process, doing it the same way, you have a little more built-in stability ... assuming your way is appropriate for the particular piano.

    Do your planning and allot your time according to your aim for that particular instrument. If it is a gross pitch raise, there is a limit to how much polishing is appropriate. If it is a concert tuning from close to the right pitch, then stability and a fine polish should be the aim, and the needed time should be devoted to it. If the piano is capable of taking a really good tuning, then I want to give it that. If it is false as a three dollar bill, I just want to get it to do what it is able to do. I think I'd probably spend less time than I do here on a tuning in a difficult climate, because here a decent tuning can sound quite presentable years later if conditions are good -- but in parts of the country where pitch can shift a semitone during seasonal changes, I can understand that customers wouldn't want to pay top dollar for a tuning which might only sound good for six weeks. And if the money isn't there, then the tuning time would probably have to be shorter. I try to remember this, and not react with shock when people talk casually about half-hour tunings.

    I often spend two and a half hours on a good piano, because I like the results I can get that way. Most of the time is in the final phases, and I take a litle time for voicing if needed.

    In an emergency concert situation, I can put on a good burst of speed. It's not a bad idea to try the burst of speed on a routine tuning, and then go back and polish. That way the speed will be there when you need it.

    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon



  • 13.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2014 06:00
    It is my experience that if you tense up while trying to hurry I get sloppy in even putting my tuning hammer on the tuning pin. When that happens, I pause and take a few deep breaths, and try to bring my tension down. Then I can usually proceed at a quicker pace. The point is that your body needs to be relaxed in this procedure or else one will feel in it in the future with sore shoulders, sore tendons in the elbows, etc...
    Then I go along with the good suggestions with lots of practice, and not to stay on a tone for too long.
    Try to time yourself in a pitch raise to try to do it in 15 min. Then try to time yourself on a temperament, unison, trichord, one octave. Try  tuning with only two  mutes instead of a muting strip.

    All these will help in cutting some time and not being too tired to proceed.

    I hope this helps
    -------------------------------------------
    Victor Belanger
    Belmont, MA
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  • 14.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-28-2014 07:39
    By removing my posts on futurism from my postings, the PTG has decided speed is a valid marketing tool, but assiduousness, is not. The people who want us to go faster generally do not care about piano technology. Instututions look for faster tuners, not real piano technicians. The notion that so and so takes such and such an amount of time to tune a piano is nothing but a fradulent marketing hook, and if sincerely propounded, a display of incompetence. Rather, it is the piano that that takes such and such an amount of time to tune, not the technician, if we genuinely have understanding of the profession. Generally speaking, a lot depends on bearing. You can grease it all you want, some pianos are designed with tight bearing, some, loose. Obviously I am not talking about flattened bridges and loose pin blocks. Complain all you want, if a piano is bearing tight, there is nothing necessarily wrong with the piano. Take the necessary time climate permitting and you will have a piano that will stay in tune twice as long if you stop saying, "I take this long to tune," and start saying, "This piano takes this much time, to tune." Generally tuning for institutions goes faster, because there is a lot of it, not because of the tuner. Taking the time to fix off unisons discovered aurally whole tone tuning, and fixing temperament problems discovered beyond the temperament octave does pay sometimes. When I do, I get tips. Figuring out how to do this without screwing up the temperament takes more time. Ghosting impresses clients. I am guessing you aren't tuning 20 a week. It starts going faster then, slows down with slower tuning weeks, at least for me. There is no substitute for optimism. If you don't want to be there, it takes longer. ------------------------------------------- Benjamin Sloane Cincinnati OH 513-257-8480 -------------------------------------------


  • 15.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2014 10:07

    Dear Gary & list,

    Earlier, like, much earlier this morning, I was going to post to this thread, but I couldn't quite decide which of the many thoughtful contributions  to 'launch' from, since my particular view took a somewhat different tack.  Enter: Benjamin S, who has introduced the question I was going to pose, albeit, not in his way:

    Why faster?  Are you so busy already, as a recently full-time, that you have trouble fitting all your client calls into the day, or week?  How strong was your initial training? (This, and most of the others are 'thought' questions, not requiring actual responses).  How many hours have you spent 'slow' tuning... either patiently struggling to solve a problem, or understand (and develop) the kinesthetic process...many of the previous posts refer to subtle muscular control that simply takes time (different for each of us, except Wim!) to develop. 

    Who, as Ben suggested, is pushing you to be faster?  What about the ability to experience the mini-moments of fulfillment every time you 'solve' a unison, or an octave?  (Note: not implying you should do shots after each unison - unless it's after 11:00AM) Who could do this kind of work, for this many hours, days, years of their lives, if there weren't some part of the process (other than getting paid) that gave us fulfillment?

    Whenever I'm about to use the word 'duality',  I inescapably make a mental nod to David Anderson, who, somehow, managed to get through to me at a presentation he did a few years ago, in NYC.  The duality that comes to mind here is embracing the presence of the 'clock', while still being unaware of it. As Ron said "Clock watching is the enemy".   In his example, he advised practicing by getting into a rhythm, which I agree with... (practice sprinting is also good).  This means you'll be spending time practicing tuning without getting paid... so maybe you can find a venue... a church or school.. that would allow you access.  Still, and apart from Ron's extremely useful advice regarding listening (and responding) to the attack, there are things to be learned (and experienced) by just allowing yourself to become immersed in the sound, especially on a better piano.  If you never feel like you have the time for this, something is wrong. 

    The other point, that Ben also touches on, is that, apart from quality of sound, pianos will tune as differently as (theoretically) snowflakes.  If you're over-focusing on speed, you're unlikely to be allowing your body to perceive the differences. And yet, as with developing a solid piano technique, (and for, yet again another duality), we strive to develop a tuning technique that both acknowledges the differences and then, transcends them.

    As Ben said: There is no substitute for optimism.  I'm not sure it's true, but it sound promising.

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 16.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2014 05:33


    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------
    What Ron says.  You may think that he is being hasty and sloppy, but that is the furthest thing from the truth.  This is how I have trained myself to tune.  Endless repetition through practice will get your brain to zone in on only that which you need to hear, nothing more, and make the decisions quickly.  That same repetition refines the movements of the tuning pin with your hand and you build in efficiencies.  You will start making accurate movements of the pin quickly. 

    Half a second is a long time, and enough to hear what you need and move on.  Most pianos are full of "junk" noises that add to the confusion and manifest themselves after that initial attack phase.  They do nothing to bring clarity.  You can always fix your mistakes anyway.  And they are not mistakes.  It's target practice.  It never stops being target practice.

    Set yourself time goals.  If you check a piano before beginning and estimate it will take you say 2.5 hours.  Set your goal for 2 hours and get moving.  Even if you do not achieve it, you will find your times dropping.  When you get to that 2 hour mark, drop your times again and aim for that.  My guess is that, with diligent practice along suggested lines, you can drop 1 to 1.5 hours off your times AND do a more accurate and solid tuning.  I think you are going to surprise yourself.

    Will Truitt







  • 17.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2014 08:42
    Adjust the tip on your lever so the handle aligns with the pins flat or corner. Look at the next pin before you get off the present one

    -------------------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.prescottpiano.com
    larry@prescottpiano.com
    928-445-3888
    -------------------------------------------





  • 18.  RE: What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-28-2014 08:44
    On 1/28/2014 4:33 AM, William Truitt via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:

    > Set yourself time goals.

    I'm sorry, but I must disagree here. Clock watching is the enemy, and
    will just slow you down and make it harder on you. When new techs have
    asked about how to tune faster, I recommend they find a piano they can
    use (their own, or whatever), and try an experiment. THROW a tuning at
    the piano. Don't make 73 checks per note, don't listen through ten
    seconds of decay. Hit it, move and settle the pin (string), move on.
    Don't look for trouble or perfection, just move as fast as you humanly
    can, but don't bypass settling the string. This isn't a pitch raise,
    it's a tuning. Don't stop or slow down to get philosophical, MOVE, keep
    moving, and don't look up or at a clock until you're done. Then when you
    finish - do it again.

    You know you've done a lousy job, because you blew through it so fast
    and didn't agonize over the minutest details in the process, yet when
    you check over the tuning after the second pass you find something you
    don't understand. It sounds pretty good. It sounds way better than you
    would have guessed, and you have made two passes in much less time than
    your "normal" tuning. You have just experienced the difference between
    spending time where it does the most good, and not wasting time on the
    junk you can't fix no matter how long you sit there. Do this exercise
    (one pass) a half dozen times during the next few weeks, with scheduled
    tunings when you have the time to touch up the results if necessary
    before you leave. Very soon, you'll be tuning in an hour, and doing a
    better job than you did before at three without hurrying or being
    stressed. Then, it's time to work on stability without giving up what
    you've learned about speed and efficiency.

    That's everything I know about tuning.
    Ron N




  • 19.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2014 10:02


    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------
    Ron, I think we are more in agreement than not; perhaps I have not framed my remarks with sufficient clarity. 

    I will speak from my own early experience, sometime back in the Stone Age.  When I was digging ditches practicing tuning before I foisted myself on the unsuspecting public, it would take me 4 to 4 1/2 hours to plod through a tuning. And for a while, I kept plodding through my tunings at those times.  I can't say they were all that good, given my investment of time.  My mentor told me ok, now you have to complete this tuning in 3 hours.  Then he would come in and check my tuning.  Of course, I never got to those top 2 octaves, so he would tear apart the poor quality of treble tuning.  The next time he came back, it was the last octave left undone.  And so on.  By the time I left his tutelage, my times were down to 2 hours and lower, and the quality dramatically better.  These days, I can do a pitch raise and a fine tuning in 1 hour and 15 minutes.  On those days when my fastball is hitting the mark every time, it can be as little as 50 minutes for the two passes.

    The important thing to understand here is that the time was not the goal, forcing me learn to work efficiently and effectively was.  That goes straight to your remarks to keep moving, keep moving, keep moving.  What is happening as the practice builds is that we are driving our hand moves used for tuning into muscle memory, and our listening and mental processes into mental muscle memory.  The net result for you and me after so many years of tuning, 20,000 pianos, and a million movements; is that we don't need any more than that half second most all the time.  I don't tune to the clock at all, unless I am under the gun in concert work, I look at my watch when I am done.  It takes what it takes, but it takes a lot less time than it used to, with no loss of quality.

    I doubt if you think that taking only 1/2 second to listen and hear all you need to hear means that you are rushing.  I certainly don't believe that.  It simply means that you are highly skilled and, like any good craftsman, very economical and efficient.  You have pared away anything that does not need to be there, so you do not waste time on things that bring no benefit to the quality of your tuning. 

    For me, I find that my tunings are more accurate and stable when I work quickly.  I find that my octaves and unisons "drop into place" and the checks confirm what I already know.  Doing a pitch raise, even when the piano is close, gets me into that frame of mind where I am quick and very accurate.  If I slow myself down, the tuning is not as good or as accurate.  They are more solid than when I work slowly.

    For others who dispute that one CAN work more accurately at speed, I say don't extrapolate your own experience onto mine, and then condemn me for it.  All I am saying is that a lifetime of experience has taught me that this is what works best for me.  I am not claiming that it will work for everybody.  But there are many others who work similarly and with continual success.  So I offer it to our the gentleman who posed the question.

    Will Truitt







  • 20.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-28-2014 11:27


    -------------------------------------------
    Charles Belknap
    Belknap Piano Service
    Enid, OK 73703
    580-541-5902


    -------------------------------------------

    I have to absolutely agree with Mr. Nossaman.  I tuned for 15 years and always took 2 hours to do a good job.  I read his post several years back about rapidly striking the note and tuning on the impact.  I tried it for a while, and then one day I tuned a piano and realized that it was only 45 minutes since I had started.  It happened just as quickly as that.   Now, I am unhappy with myself if a tuning takes an hour and 15 minutes. to complete even with the ever present pitch adjustment.  However, some pianos just seem to require that.

    By focusing on the impact, you quickly can hear when the 2 strings come together.  This will give you beautiful, solid unisons, that go one for ever without a roll, (on a good piano). and the rapid striking adds tremendously to stability issues. 

    I do not strike hard on any of these and keep a good relaxed wrist.  No problems with fatigue, and thanks to ear plugs, no mental fatigue, as I have little of that to spare anymore.

    Mr. Nossaman, I am your neighbor across the border here in God's country, and if we ever get to meet, dinner is on me.  Your ideas have helped me tremendously, especially on your method of tuning and speed.

    Yours,
    Charles Belknap
    in Frozen Enid, OK






  • 21.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-28-2014 17:12
    This.

    I read the same post by Ron Nossaman several years back and it was an
    epiphany and the single most helpful piece of advice I've ever received
    about tuning. Cut my average tuning time down from 1 1/2 hrs. to about an
    hour almost overnight.

    I don't remember his exact words but I think he mentioned something too
    about "knowing" when you've got it and "knowing" it within milliseconds and
    moving on. It's that "knowing" that builds confidence.

    But what helps too, as many have mentioned, is experience: tuning lots and
    lots of pianos, getting to know the range of pianos out there, and knowing
    within the first couple of unisons what you're dealing with, i.e., what does
    a well-tuned unison on this particular piano sound like?

    Gary Hodge
    Warrenton, VA




  • 22.  RE: What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-28-2014 13:34
    On 1/28/2014 10:27 AM, Charles Belknap via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:

    >
    > I have to absolutely agree with Mr. Nossaman. I tuned for 15 years
    > and always took 2 hours to do a good job. I read his post several
    > years back about rapidly striking the note and tuning on the impact.
    > I tried it for a while, and then one day I tuned a piano and realized
    > that it was only 45 minutes since I had started. It happened just as
    > quickly as that.

    That's precisely why I disagree with setting and working toward time
    goals. It works so much better as a surprise when you suddenly realize
    you're doing it easily, comfortably, and naturally without ever having
    to "work" at it.


    > By focusing on the impact, you quickly can hear when the 2 strings
    > come together. This will give you beautiful, solid unisons, that go
    > one for ever without a roll, (on a good piano).

    There's a reason for this. A not quite clean unison will pull together
    by itself after a second or so and not really cycle, but will always
    sound ratty in the attack because it's not in tune. Tuning in the decay
    guarantees unisons like this, and I've heard plenty of them in fresh
    tunings.


    > and the rapid
    > striking adds tremendously to stability issues.

    It certainly does, as you said, without pounding.


    > Mr. Nossaman, I am your neighbor across the border here in God's
    > country, and if we ever get to meet, dinner is on me. Your ideas
    > have helped me tremendously, especially on your method of tuning and
    > speed.

    Thank you Sir. I appreciate it.
    Ron N




  • 23.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-28-2014 14:22
    Just to clarify a point, tuning in the attack applies to unisons and octaves, not the temperament where you need to hear the beat speed over a period of time. Test blows are not for settling-in the string but to verify stability. Hammer technique produces stability.

    As for speed tuning/pitch corrections, a realistic expectation at this early point would be 30 to 45 minutes.

    This morning I tuned a U1 which had the tenor and treble about -10c. I started at the end of the long bridge and tuned w/ overpull. That took 20 minutes. Retuning on the long bridge took another 40 minutes and the bass about 15 minutes; 75 minutes overall. I work at a comfortable pace and do not try to break land speed records. I don't tune all day, every day these days.

    Back when I was tuning aurally, I realized that setting the temperament took one third of the tuning time. A 20 minute temp. ended with an overall 60 minute tuning time.



    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 24.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2014 17:04
    You know what gets you fast at tuning.  Get only 1 hour in a classroom between 9 and 10am to tune something 10cents flat.  That'll teach you in a hurry. Oh yeah, All the stinking time.

    I remember before coming to UNL for an interview, Steve Brady and I met at Sherman Clay in downtown Seattle on a quiet afternoon.  He pointed randomly at a piano and said, "the class starts in an hour, do what you can do".  Great eye opening on at least how music schools work.  Made me appreciate how to make things work in a short time.  Of course, when actually tuning a client or stage thing, it's different, 2 hours is max on a concert tuning for an important concert:  1 hour 10-15 minutes is about my average for regular tunings. 1.5 hours with minor pitch raise.  Fly through the pitch raise and don't listen to much other than what Ron said.  just bring up to close and move on. no decay is needed.  Just get close to there and then you'll be fine on the second pass. 

    I don't recommend trying to make a one pass tuning if more than 5-10 cents sharp or flat. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    Glenn Korff School of Music
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu

    -------------------------------------------








  • 25.  RE: What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-28-2014 14:46
    On 1/28/2014 1:22 PM, Jon Page via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Just to clarify a point, tuning in the attack applies to unisons and
    > octaves, not the temperament where you need to hear the beat speed
    > over a period of time.

    You can pick up beat speeds in the temperament very quickly as well, and
    should. The point is to do your tuning early in the tonal envelope.


    > Test blows are not for settling-in the string
    > but to verify stability.

    This has always been the case, however you tune.


    > Hammer technique produces stability.

    No, awareness of what the string is doing, accommodating it consciously,
    and providing enough energy input into the string at the right rate
    while you're tuning is what produces stability.


    > As for speed tuning/pitch corrections, a realistic expectation at
    > this early point would be 30 to 45 minutes.

    I don't do times. Whatever works. The point being to not sweat arbitrary
    benchmarks, but rather to improve the approach and see what happens.

    Ron N




  • 26.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-28-2014 16:34
    A somewhat similar thread on tuning is on Piano World and is off on the wrong foot:

    http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2221719/Tuning_at_the_Beginning_of_the.html#Post2221719
    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 27.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-28-2014 17:30
    See this http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_8bWuzKXcSY&list=PLE5BB14563A809336&feature=plpp ------------------------------------------- Ed Sutton Editor Piano Technicians Journal ed440@me.com 704-536-7926 -------------------------------------------


  • 28.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-28-2014 19:35

    <from Ed Sutton

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_8bWuzKXcSY&list=PLE5BB14563A809336&feature=plpp

    Alright...finally something to watch and listen to rather than all words about a non-verbal question. These threads are begging for audio/visual materials.

    What are we watching here?  Is this a first pass, or what, because precious few of those unisons are what I would consider unisons.  I don't think its a first pass, because the 2nd & 3rd strings are already pretty close.

    Perhaps an assumption check is in order, as this is an upright and perhaps he doesn't think it will matter. But this is not how I would like to proceed unless it were a pitch raise or first pass. I certainly wouldn't leave a piano like this. I had the same impression watching Alan's Z's fast tuning on the recently released Virgil Smith DVD...the amount of unison movement, even, in that case on a good Bosendorfer grand, were, to me, unacceptable and unmusical, and Virgil insisted they needed to cleaned up before a top notch, musical tuning could be had.

    The assumption that needs to be clearly stated is, what musically is to be expected in the sped up tuning...or, is musicality is not in the end game. Given David S's well stated mention of dualities, musicality and speed may possibly be had together, but I ain't see'in it in this video. Its professional and workman-like but it is not to my thinking musical.

    As a slow tuner, and someone who considers himself a student of tuning, this is the point which hangs me up regarding the lickety split advice. I simply don't trust the musicality of the outcome...I only see speed. I have tuned in a fashion similar to this listen quick, bump and move. While the tuning time decreased, I abandoned it because the results were merely acceptable. The quality that I had already achieved in my slow track tunings went significantly south. As well, the enjoyment of the process vanished.

    Is the musical result a central defining assumption of the suggested speeding-up techniques or not? ...although, even getting a clear reading on what one or another considers "musical" is in itself fraught...which is why audio/video back-up the suggested techniques would be helpful in this regard. 

    Jim Ialeggio

     
    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------

















  • 29.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-29-2014 10:02
    Speed comes from efficiency.  Efficiency means eliminating all that is extraneous and/or doesn't contribute to getting to the goal.  That includes listening only as far into the tonal envelope as is necessary, which might be different when tuning a unison than when tuning, say, a fifth.  (ETDs eliminate this disparity, btw, as interval checking is basically no longer a part of the tuning process except for, perhaps, a quick verification.)  It also means eliminating unnecessary pin movements and reducing the number of pushes and pulls to get to your target.  So hammer technique does matter.  Hammer technique also contributes to stability because what is happening with the string is felt through the interaction between the hammer and the tuning pin.  

    How far to listen into the envelope is really just a matter of focus and eliminating the habit of hanging onto a note for too long.  Hammer technique takes practice but the right kind of practice.  It's not a matter of being faster or more frenetic in your movements, it's a matter of making fewer of them.   The beginning tuner overcorrects and/or undercorrects.  More experienced tuners develop a more precise feel for the relationship between pitch correction and pin movement.  That's the goal.  It makes the tuning not only faster but less physically stressful as well.

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------












  • 30.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2014 22:36
    Give yourself an hour and a half to tune for a concert, then have the stage manager come and tell you you only have 25 minutes.  Go!

    -------------------------------------------
    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
    -------------------------------------------








  • 31.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-29-2014 00:27
    You may need to work smarter. If you are tuning by 4th's and 5ths you are waiting too long for those pulsations.
    Adding the ability to make use of 3rd's and 6th's (where the beat speeds are evident during this first split second) will move things right along.
    But wait! You must be using an ETD. You can still speed things up by learning more about tuning by ear to go along with the ETD.

    Go to conventions. Invest in knowledge now and the payoff will follow.

    ---Tom Gorley RPT




  • 32.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-29-2014 06:31
    Make sure you simulate musicians and stage hands walking on stage while you're trying to listen.
    25 minutes? Lots of time!

    -------------------------------------------
    Phil Bondi,RPT
    Bondi's Piano Service
    www.philbondi.com
    239-949-3688

    -------------------------------------------








  • 33.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-29-2014 12:56
    A very good point!

    Other work order habits I've gradually realized are a good idea:

    1. When tuning for a concert, get the muting strip out early in the process.

    2. When tuning for a concert (and not a bad idea all the time), fix any really bad notes first.

    You never know when the artist will walk in and need access, regardless of what planning took place beforehand.

    It's not that hard to rough in something acceptable and stable very quickly, and then pick nits and polish to a fine sheen with any time which is left.

    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon



  • 34.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-29-2014 03:44
    IT IS VITAL to learn to LISTEN to the harmonics! It takes me about 3/4 hr. to tune a piano I have tuned within 6 months. I expect to take approx an hour normally. To pitch Raise takes me, maybe, 90mins to 2 hrs. How is this achievable? You CAN do it - if you really concentrate on listening to those harmonics. First thing is to 'set the bearings' accurately. For this I use my TLA (E.T.A) From here I'm on my own and tune by ear. Bearings set, examined and tweaked (if necessary) I progress downwards from the B below mid 'C tuning first the 8ve and checking the 4ths, 5ths.,and, once you get to 'G' below mid 'C', TENTHS - most important this - and is my 'invisible tool'. First, though,go to a well tuned piano and listen to it when you play 10ths. chromatically  up and down the keyboard. Listen most carefully and accutely to the beats the 10ths produce. Note how they get gradually faster as you go UP and slower as you go DOWN. Listen.... and REMEMBER what those 10th. beats sound like. BY thus training your ear you CAN DO IT!! Any questions please ASK!  Michael (UK)

    -------------------------------------------
    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
    -------------------------------------------








  • 35.  RE: What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-29-2014 08:07
    On 1/28/2014 4:30 PM, Ed Sutton via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > See this
    >
    > http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_8bWuzKXcSY&list=PLE5BB14563A809336&feature=plpp


    What on earth for? This bears no resemblance to what's being discussed.
    Explain.
    Ron N




  • 36.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-29-2014 08:24
    Nossaman <What on earth for? This bears no resemblance to what's being discussed.


    Ron, it seemed to me, at least from the words you were using, that this did illustrate at least some of what you were describing...less the rapid fire strikes. Could you explain?

    Jim Ialeggio  

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------





    --








  • 37.  RE: What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-29-2014 09:07
    On 1/29/2014 7:24 AM, Jim Ialeggio via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Nossaman <What on earth for? This bears no resemblance to what's
    > being discussed.
    >
    >
    > Ron, it seemed to me, at least from the words you were using, that
    > this did illustrate at least some of what you were describing...less
    > the rapid fire strikes. Could you explain?

    Probably not, by all evidence.

    I wasn't talking about tuning a string in a half second, however lousy
    the unison is when you're done. I'm talking about just what I said,
    however it's butchered by interpretation. Tuning in the attack does NOT
    preclude listening, nor does it mean finishing in a half second with a
    couple of strokes, nor does it mean not finishing by stabilizing the string.

    The video showed someone tuning way too softly, hitting the string way
    too few times, and not stabilizing the string. Does that sound like what
    people who have tried what I suggested and found it to work are
    describing? Do you really believe I'm advocating the kind of hack crap
    the video shows as a tuning technique? So you don't hurt your intuitizer
    trying to imagine it out, I'll tell you. No, I'm not.

    Read the descriptions again as they were written without interpreting
    them into what you think I might have meant or to fit what you were
    taught or believe, and the information is there for anyone with an open
    mind who might be interested in learning something surprising.

    And no, I'm not going to make you a video.
    Ron N




  • 38.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-29-2014 09:41


    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------
    "Tuning in the attack does NOT
    preclude listening, nor does it mean finishing in a half second with a
    couple of strokes, nor does it mean not finishing by stabilizing the string."

    What Ron says above is my everyday experience in tuning over many years.  Just because others who tune differently dispute my technique without ever having given it a chance or enough of a chance, does not make it any less true for me.  It simply means that their prejudice does not allow any other point of view.  If it didn't work very well, I would not do it.  Period. 

    I submit that I am listening in that half second with as much focus as anyone out there.  The difference is that I get all the information that I need to to decide whether or not I need to move the pin and by how much in that period of time, so I dont waste my time or tire myself unnecessarily by continuing to listen.  And if I am not accurate, I move the pin again.  But I don't find that I am chasing my tail by slovenly and rushed hand technique because this method of working is well integrated with my particular hand technique.

    That is where I drop the pitch quickly and then slow drag it up to the drop point.  I am able to do this in such a way that I can often drop the pin where it needs to be on the first or second try.  The pin is not twisted on its axis, so it is stable once set in place.  My sensitivity to what is happening in my movements of the pin by hand is refined enough that 90 to 95% of the time I know whether the pin is going to be stable before I do my test blows.  The net effect is that I am able to listen very efficiently and move the pins effectively, so the reduced times are a natural byproduct.  What is wrong with that?  I can do as many or as few checks as anyone else.

     Will Truitt











  • 39.  RE: What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-29-2014 09:22
    On 1/28/2014 9:02 AM, William Truitt via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:

    > Ron, I think we are more
    > in agreement than not; perhaps I have not framed my remarks with
    > sufficient clarity.

    I wasn't aware that I had disagreed with you.

    Ron N




  • 40.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-29-2014 10:35
    All points bulletin!...

    Will the Wichita chapter, out there in the wild, wild, Midwest, put together a posse, ride on over to Nossaman's house with a video camera, and force him...at gun point, if need be, to show what he has described.  Same for Truitt and Love and anyone else who could engage our collective mirror neurons.  

    All these words are clumsily describing non-verbal activities.  For those of us, who in school, were famously unable to accurately guess what the devil the teacher meant when he/she said whatever he/she said, the mirror neurons would speak volumes.

    Jim I
    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------





    ----:

    > Ron, I think we are more
    > in agreement than not; perhaps I have not framed my remarks with
    > sufficient clarity.

    I wasn't aware that I had disagreed with you.

    Ron N








  • 41.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-29-2014 11:38


    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------
    Ah, yes, that great mystic, The Nossaman.  :-)

    The words are clumsy and incompletely descriptive.  I'm not sure all of the phenomena can be comfortably housed in language that will create understanding, without kinesthetic learning.  You can't put it all in one box.

    I teach skiing, so let me offer an analogy.  When I am teaching a student to turn, I might say that I want you to press down on the ball of your foot on the downhill ski, and maintain the pressure throughout the turn, with your upper body relatively tall, and your chin aligned with the front of your binding over the downhill ski.  For the new student to do that is a very conscious and deliberate movement.  But the student doesn't "get it" until he feels that movement pattern guide the ski around in a turn.  That part is kinesthetic learning.   Further practice delivers feedback good and bad regarding the success of the movement, and with enough information the student can self-correct.  Repeat, repeat, repeat the movement pattern and it is driven into what is called muscle memory.  The student has repeated the movement enough that he no longer has to think about it, there is now a well trodden neural path that precludes the necessity for all the rational and deliberate steps he has had to use to go from A to Z.  With little to no conscious activity, he is able to move through the turn because his brain is having a conversation with his legs and muscles "below the surface of his rational mind". 

    The interesting thing is that, when I finally shut up and let them process it on their own as they turn, that's when the real learning happens, as he integrates the kinesthetic with the rational.  . 

    Some might call it intuition, but if it is that it is highly educated and directed, a higher functioning brain activity that is rooted in the knowledge on which the task was built. 

    Will Truitt









  • 42.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-29-2014 11:53
    ETDs can be a very valuable teaching aid to show you how to tune more directly to the target pitch.  Less skilled tuners tune a little high, a little low, a little less high, a little less low, a little less high still, a little less low and on and on until they finally settle at the target.

    More skilled tuners get to the target quickly and with fewer moves.  The ETD can be useful for this type of training because it gives you instant and visual feedback as it relates to pin torque, actual pin movement, false movement and stability.  It's this very refined and subtle control over the pin, along with learning to recognize quickly where you are aurally, that really creates efficiency and with that will come speed.  Of course you can do that with the right kind of focussed practice without an ETD but a visual input can be very helpful--read more efficient.

    Remember it's not just 10,000 hours, it's how you practice during those 10,000 hours.  Practice doesn't make perfect, it just makes permanent.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 43.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-29-2014 12:42
    Here's a simple drill you can do with an ETD followed by an aural exercise.  

    On a grand piano pick a single string (mid range tenor is a good place to start) and tune it with the ETD so that the spinner, lights, whatever it uses stops. 

    1.  First place the tuning hammer on the tuning pin in the 1:30 position (the hammer pointing away from you would be the 12:00 position).  Now gently press down on the handle so that it gently flexes the tuning pin straight down toward the strings.  Notice that the spinner moves in the flat direction as you flex the pin toward the string).  Let go and notice that the pitch slowly returns to where you started.  

    2.  Second, with the tuning hammer in the same position gently pull the handle toward you on a horizontal axis without actually turning the pin in the block.  Don't push the handle up or down, just pull it toward you with the force directed on a pure horizontal axis.  Notice that as you flex the pin in this direction the pitch goes sharp as the pin flexes away from the strings and when you let go of the handle it should return to where you started.

    3.  Now combine these two movements and find a place such that the downward toward the string pressure and the horizontal, toward you pressure on the pin offset each other perfectly and the spinner stays absolutely stationary.  Let go of the handle and the spinner should stay exactly where it was.  Practice this a few times to get a sense of how much downward pressure is required to be combined with the horizontal pulling of the pin to keep the spinner stationary without the pin actually moving in the block.  Don't overdo it.

    4.  Now, while watching the spinner, find the point at which you need to increase the twisting motion while simultaneously offsetting with pressing motion such that you can feel the pin move in the block and the spinner moves to the sharp side along with it.  Focus on feeling the pin move.  Try to do this with the smallest incremental movements possible.  When you let go of the handle the spinner should stay exactly where it was.  


    You can do the same drill on an upright.  The hammer should also be in the 1:30 position.  The pressing of the handle will be away from you as in the grand and will push the pitch sharp rather than flat.  Pulling the handle in a pure rotational motion (downward) will tend to flex the pin down toward the string and push the pitch to the flat side.  Work with offsetting these two forces the same as in the grand and then getting the smallest incremental movement of the pin and an accompanying movement in pitch.  When released, the pitch should remain where it was.

    After you have some sense of that tune two strings in unison starting from degrees of displacement: 1 cent, 5 cents, 10 cents.  Focus on the amount of movement you feel in the block and how much pitch change is associated with that.  Do this exercise aurally.   Try to tune directly to the pitch.  

    After that try and tune so that you hear the slightest swell to the sharp side of the note being tuned and then settle it into place with a very slight amount of back pressure.   The back pressure required should not be enough to actually turn the pin in the block, but just to put it in a state where it will be just fractionally flexed toward the string and held in stasis by the string tension itself.  

     

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 44.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-30-2014 12:49
    I always use a 'T' hammer myself - on Grands. The Lever I reserve for uprights. I also only use one rubber wedge on Grands and one Papps wedge on Uprights. I found many years ago that I just couldn't get to grips with a Lever on a Grand. Probably something to do with being Left handed. (which, believe me, is an advantage with a Lever - work it out why!) I use the E.T. only for one 8ve then, immediately start using the major 3rds to listen to the beat rate. I once came across a blind tuner in Harrods tuning an Upright with a 'T' hammer. That was quite something. Normally it takes me some 50mins to tune when the pitch is pretty well close on A=440  - longer to pitch raise - about 90 mins. - though once at Glyndebourne (2006) I found myself with only an hour (or a bit less) to tune the stage rehearsal piano from A=430 up to 440. Panic as the singers start arriving. Then the Repetiteure starts breathing down my neck. I did it though and in the break found it was so OK that I didn't have to touch it. The 'it' was a Yamaha C6. I'll be 80 next birthday so that's why I say I'm 'semi-retired' Probably more 'tired' than 'semi'.. . . . .   Michael (UK)

    -------------------------------------------
    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
    -------------------------------------------








  • 45.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-31-2014 08:12

    Forget about a video of RonN (tuning, I mean.  geez).  I want to see one of Michael G., who says
    "I always use a 'T' hammer myself - on Grands"
    All the other stuff we're speaking about is conceivable to me... but not this.  I'm thinking about the 130 to 160 inch pounds not uncommonly found on pianos.  What would most of us consider a manageable torque for using a 'T'?  Like, what's a standard  harpsichord pin torque?. 

    Michael G, if you happen to have a torque wrench, tell me where the unmanageable level begins, for you.  And don't forget the video.

    You say you're 'tired',... well, 80 yrs old may or may not be a reasonable excuse, but, semi or not, that 'T' thang sure might be.

    On the other hand, if it's faster.... (Wim? you listening?)
    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------








  • 46.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-04-2014 19:27
    What David Love has described (below in "original message") is essentially the same method I use. Nice description of an exercise to learn that method, David! The benefits of the method are efficiency and solidity, accomplished at the same time. The pin AND string are moved the bare minimum, and you know where they are at all times. It is not an easy method to learn, but it pays benefits down the road that make it worth every bit of effort you expended.

    A few additional details: The tuning hammer matters a lot, specifically how stiff it is, how little spring and flex is built into its design and construction. When there is spring and flex in the hammer, that springy element acts as stored energy, and shoots the pin past the target as you get close. This is particularly noticeable as you hone in on precise clean unisons. There are quite a few options out there for hammers. I like Fujan myself, but I'm sure many others work well. What does not work well is the design where the tuning head screws to the shaft, the shaft having a fairly small threaded end, and the threads are the main interface between the head and the shaft. The Jahn design where the head and shaft are one piece with ample bracing is one that works well. Nate Reyburn came up with a system where two surfaces lock together well. The Levitan hammer Pianotek sells (the cheaper one) seems to be well-designed. There are others, but you get the idea.

    David's scenario is only one of a number of possibilities. In his scenario, There is low friction at the bearing points (string to capo and over the underfelt, or whatever the string needs to cross from the termination to the pin) and there is moderate torque/friction of the pin in the block. Since there is not much friction at the bearing point, leaning the pin toward the speaking length makes the pitch lower, but if there is significant friction, there might be no pitch change when you flex the pin. Similarly, if there is low friction between the pin and the block, there might not be enough twist of the pin before it moves to result in a pitch change.

    So the problem is one of analyzing that particular string and tuning pin for the two frictional elements, and adapting your technique accordingly. If there is a lot of bearing friction, it might be necessary to flex the tuning pin away from the speaking length (pull up on a grand, push in on an upright) to get pitch to move in sync with pin movement, as one example. Sometimes the two frictional elements are really nicely balanced, and you don't need to do anything other than turn the pin, and the pitch starts to move just as the pin begins to move in the block. And sometimes you can get a nice mating of twist and friction by adjusting the angle of the hammer, say from 1 o'clock to 3 o'clock.

    But it can be pretty confusing, and you have to be on you toes, not just going through a set of learned physical behaviors. Pins and strings on the same piano can vary a lot, and the one that sticks out as different is likely to be the one where the unison consistently goes out after you tune it. How would I know that? If you are paying attention, you will pick that sort of thing out. If you are going on automatic pilot, you are likely to miss it.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 47.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-05-2014 13:52
    Good points.  

    The bottom line in all this is that to go faster you need to be more efficient and eliminate unnecessary steps.  Efficiency comes from getting to the target quickly but not just that, it also involves being able to leave the target quickly.  Time is taken up not just by the less skilled hammer technique that doesn't get you where you are going quickly, but the time taken waiting around to make sure that the pitch is going to stay there.  Better and more confident hammer technique not only gets you there faster but allows you to leave faster. Of course unstable pin setting of the pitch will require that you go back and retune that note again and, perhaps, any other notes that used that as a reference.  More wasted time.

    The elimination of unnecessary steps is also important.  This can be something as simple as how you use mutes or whether you strip mute the piano.  But all things being equal the aural tuning will always be slower than the etd tuning.  The aural tuner simply has more steps.  Most of those steps that the ETD user eliminates are the aural checks involved and adjustments made when the aural check reveals more refinement is necessary.  The ETD user doesn't have that.  Aural checks, if any, are cursory and quick.  If the aural tuner is doing a thorough job of it, then aural checks exist in abundance through the temperament and octave setting.  More steps equals more time.  Of course the aural tuner can skip the aural checks but that will on average produce a less accurate tuning. 

    I've made my case previously about the speed advantages of  ETDs in the pitch correction process.  It is more accurate (given proper calibration or programming of the device) and virtually eliminates second pitch corrections in advance of fine tuning.  Final passes will on average come from a point closer to the final target with only a single pass.  This creates greater stability and a more accurate fine tuning eliminating the need for further corrections or "clean-up".  I stand by that assertion.

    ETD users do have to develop a second set of skills, namely hand-eye coordination to go along with the hand-ear coordination. However, I consider that a benefit since the shifting back and forth between modes (hand ear still required for unisons generally) helps to eliminate fatigue.

    Finally, the ETD can direct you more quickly on problem notes where pitch recognition is difficult for various reasons or in more challenging areas, such as high treble unison tuning and stability.

    So if speed or continuity in tuning times for every piano is the goal, along with developing precise hammer technique, an ETD will be a benefit.




    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 48.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-07-2014 05:19
    Are you in a sprint, or a marathon? If you are in a sprint, the head start an ETD gives you might take aural tuning out of the race altogether, for the race will be over before the head start ends. Those committed to aural tuning today are definitely marathon runners, because you are up against something that gives such a big head start that it will take a marathon distance to catch up. I regret to admit these days that too many marathon runners are quitting before reaching the finish line. Perfection is inseparable from completion. If you can't finish, I urge you to stay out of the marathon, and line up for the 100 yard dash. Just last night I watched a German movie called "Run Lola Run." It is about a girl trying to save the life of her boyfriend who is about to get killed after losing 100,000 Deutsche Marks proffering three different ways of obtaining them and running to the location the Marks must be delivered in less than half an hour, forcing the viewer to consider the difference just a split second can make between life and death. So time allocation is a big decision. The bigger questions are ethical. What are acceptable circumstances for compromising service? What compromises striving to upgrade my skills and encouraging others to do the same? Aural or visual tuning? Piano technicians ask those of us brave enough to tackle the piano literature how do we gain the understanding of a performer. Aural tuning is not only a leap in their direction, but a leap further than one could get with a Russian Concerto. Striving to upgrade my skills could mean a lot of things one does not have time for or that I will make money doing: item, aural tuning item, practicing Schubert item, building a harpsichord item, installing a soundboard item, comparing the Baldwin and the Steinway on the live recordings of Bruce Hornsby from the only song on both "Here Come the Noisemakers (Baldwin)" and "Bride of the Noisemakers (Steinway)," i.e., Fortunate Son, over and over alternately a thousand times. item, going to the concert. item, learning French There is no need for guilt trips. You can't do everything. There is something everyone should be doing they are not that is a time delay and a deterrent from making money most efficiently. But what are acceptable circumstances for doing less than the best possible service? Overbooking yourself to make more money is to my way of thinking the worst possible excuse. I urge every guild member doing this to please resign your membership for violating PTG ethics immediately. ------------------------------------------- Benjamin Sloane Cincinnati OH 513-257-8480 -------------------------------------------


  • 49.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-07-2014 13:09
    Some good ideas, Benjamin.

    A snow day, well over a foot of it out there, did everything I had to do when it was 8 inches yesterday.

    As people say, "this isn't a rehearsal", i.e., you only live once (as far as we are aware, anyway.)

    Following some of your ideas a little bit further, I would recommend the rocking chair test: If I'm 95 and sitting in a rocking chair, would I regret not having spent the best years of my life tuning four pianos a day, six days a week, using an ETD?

    Is money going to rule one's life? Is the need for more of it really as overwhelming as it seems, or could we simplify what we're doing and still stay solvent? Sometimes people embrace "voluntary simplicity" and then write books about it. Of course they make it sound really nice -- lowered expectations, a lot less work and stress, more than enough money because they don't need as much of it. It probably wasn't as easy as they like to portray. Still, I think that for a lot of what we "have" to do, as soon as something happens which makes doing it impossible, we discover we really didn't need to do it after all.

    Now to a few details, trying for time efficiency in tuning. Having not used an ETD I can't speak to the time saving of it, but so many people have said it does save time that I have to believe it. But I think that the aural checks don't need to take a lot of time, especially when setting a temperament. If they become second nature, and one knows exactly what to listen for at each point in the process, they can do a job quickly. More like an edged tool and less like a blunt instrument. At the end of a temperament, I run major thirds, perfect fourths, perfect fifths, and major sixths. It takes probably 30 seconds total, and shows just what I ended up with. I'm listening for bumps in the speed of the thirds, and for nasty fourths or fifths. Are any less good than the others? Assuming I've done a usual temperament, I don't find any. Many years of practice does get one somewhere worth being.

    As to the rigidity of the tuning hammer, I'm sure it's nice, but it has tradeoffs. The rigid hammers tend to be shorter than I like. The guys always laugh when they see my tuning hammer with the extension pulled way out. I call it the "equalizer." It's awkward in tight corners, and it definitely flexes more, but lessening the strain on my arm, especially when tuning tight pins, is worth it. When I was young and silly, I would pull it out for stiff pins, and push it back in for looser ones. Then one day I hadn't pushed it back in, and even though the pins weren't all that tight, it still was a lot more comfortable having more leverage over them.

    I've been a little bemused, now and then, to hear guys grouse about very tight pins when they have extension hammers but haven't pulled them out.

    Dealing with the flex is kind of a whole new topic. Some of it can be used to give a little English to the pin. It also can be bypassed by slapping the end of the hammer as if it were an impact hammer, and then giving a light leftward push or a small repeated nibbling motion to reverse any twist or to lower pitch when one has gone past. One can vary the strength of the slaps depending on the size of the micro-changes in pitch. One wants the pitch shifts as small as practical given time constraints.

    With very tight tuning pins, a good slap near the end of a long hammer (2 to 5 p.m. on the clock face) seems like the easiest way to raise pitch. One would think that it would be hard on the right hand, but I find that a slow pull on a super-tight pin is much more tiring and time consuming.

    A good whack on the key to be sure hidden tension isn't still in the string, followed immediately by a soft blow WITH ONE'S HAND OFF THE HAMMER completes the process. The combination of slapping the hammer, grabbing it by the very end to nibble the note downward or counter the twist from pulling it up (push push push push in very small doses), holding the hammer in a more conventional manner to pull enough to feel the pin moving in the block, releasing the hammer entirely at the very split second one is testing the pitch, and picking up the hammer at the head to shift it to another pin gives enough relaxation and change of task to prevent repetitive stress -- at least, it has for me. There are short moments where muscular exertion is needed, and in all the time in between instant relaxation of the hand and arm will pay big dividends as the years go by. Sometimes when I see someone tuning I just wince at the constant strain I'm observing. Luckily I go years in between watching someone else tuning. Far too often it looks like an uncomfortable and unrewarding process, even if the piano sounds "tuned" at the end.

    I think that at its best, piano tuning should look comfortable, pleasing, and not boring, so that a customer might be kind of envious that they can't do that. I do think that tuning can be fast without being hurried, if you take my drift.

    Looks like a paperweight outside. The second of the three fronts off the Pacific is now colliding with the stubborn cold air which has been parked here for days. Tomorrow the third is supposed to warm things slightly, leading to freezing rain. Both concerts, today's and Sunday's, will probably be canceled or postponed. So sad, given the time and effort to set them up. But it's a great time to make a hot fire in the masonry stove and to deal with postponed chores, paperwork, etc.

    Best,
    Susan
    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon



  • 50.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-07-2014 14:22
    Nice post, Susan.

    About the extension hammer, that is one of the reasons I prefer Fujan. It is extendable (additional joints can be screwed on). I usually use it at the 13" Steve recommends, but sometimes get it up to 20" when there is a real problem. When I first got it, I got the setup for 11" (more or less what I was used to) plus a 2" additional tube. I found that extra 2" makes a big difference, to precision (more and easier) and fatigue (less). More than that and I have to reach farther than is comfortable, especially on grands. So I think he hit on a great length as a standard. The design is also such that if I can't raise the lid on a grand (eg WAY too much stuff on top), I can remove the ball at the end, or whatever combination works, and fit within the space. The light weight is also nice: it is very easy to move from one pin to the next, holding the hammer at the very end of the handle. Less fatigue.

    The other stiff hammers are, indeed, "too short" (very usable, but not ideal). Some are just about as light, though, and beautiful to look at and feel (which enhances the tuning experience).

    With respect to time, in looking back over my life I would rather not have spent 2 1/2 hours doing a single tuning when conditions are such that that is what it takes - if I could have done a better job with less effort in 1 1/4 hours (here I am comparing aural experiences with ETD, same pianos, over the past 25+ years). I know Virgil Smith said that 2 1/2 hours was often a normal time for him. I'd rather have the extra time to do some voicing, etc. Of course in my own situation working at a university, I simply have to be able to get in and get out, within the time window available for the space the piano is in, and have done a top notch job. That window is very often one hour or less. So speed/efficiency is simply essential. After the sprint I rest, maybe write endlessly on various discussion groups, or "waste" time in some other productive or non-productive way  ;-) Practicing the piano, for instance. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 51.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-07-2014 15:53

    <About the extension hammer...Fred Strum

    A point which ties in with both David L's and Fred's comments about developing specific lever technique to counter pin flex/twist forces, and the extension lever Susan and Fred mention, one might also consider what the Levitan C lever has to offer in both these regards. 

    While not claiming the tuning experience the above folks have, back in November as I realized that I seem to be inheriting numbers of local rebuilder's ridiculously tight blocks...and I already service my own earlier nasty blocks. Having numbers of with really tough to tune Chinese beauty queens in addition to these other tough to tune items, I realized that my ratcheting technique was simply not going to be ergonomically sustainable. So, at first I decided to try the C lever for clearly ergonomic reasons. I quickly learned, right out of the box, that the combination of long lever arm, combined with the applying force in line with the pin foot's plane did automatically what David and Fred were describing in their lever technique posts.

    That is, even with a ridiculously tight block, the flexing portion of the motion was pretty darn near eliminated, leaving twist of the pin itself as the main pin flex force to be reckoned with. Interestingly, compared to the unavoidable flagpoling that goes on with a tight block, it's pretty eyeopening to see how much of the apparent pitch change that happens when turning the pin in a tight block, or frankly any block, can be attributed to unavoidable flagpoling, rather than the pin twisting.  The flagpoling can be used to advantage if one chooses, but it is interesting to tune without beating up on the pin unnecessarily, or applying bending forces gently and controlled, independently at will.

    Similar to David and Fred's approach, which I take to be aimed at setting the pitch to target without interpreting how much over or under to shoot,  the C lever, at least the way I use it, helps to do this, coming to target or just slightly above sometimes. This leaves the playing hand, playing relatively quick fire repeated notes, aka Nossaman style, the task of moving the endemic recalcitrant strings over sticky friction points.

    This all combined with the long lever arm makes tuning these blocks doable, easier on the bod', and for me more stable than I was before by far, especially with tight blocks.

    I wish I can say it sped things up, but the change of technique, has slowed me down a bit. However, its slower because I can now nail a much cleaner target, exactly where I want it...and that's so enjoyable, and the result so much cleaner than my previous technique that the time it takes is worth it for me.

    Jim Ialeggio
      

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------









  • 52.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-07-2014 18:14
    I haven't followed this thread in detail, but want to respond here to both Jim and Fred.

    My first attempt to adapt to the Levitan C lever was not comfortably successful, but good enough to show me it could work well.
    Then injuries to my right arm left me no choice, and on my second try, with the help of the video at Dan's website, I adapted fairly quickly. My usual technique now is very simple: I push, tap or nudge to rotate to just at or above pitch, then, if needed, lift to tilt the pin a tiny bit and drop to pitch. Upon releasing the tilt, the pin leaves a tiny pit of "up" tension in the front length. [I use a standard lever, left handed on verticals.]

    Again because of injuries, I cannot play more than a few octave/fifth/fourth combos, so I now tune with an ETD, and admit that my tunings are the best of my career. The most advanced ETDs allow for a much more accurate pitch adjustment, and they reverse the customary pattern. It may be more effective to do the pitch raise carefully, because the fine tuning may just require touching up the pitch raise in a few minutes. ETDs also make it possible to tune the piano from the treble down, so that I can put my best energies in the top octaves. 


    -------------------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926

    -------------------------------------------








  • 53.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-07-2014 19:55

    As I recall (see subject line) the original question was "what's the secret to going faster".  Presumably that precludes questions about what gives greater pleasure or satisfaction or what one can do in a pinch when pressed.  I took the question to mean what can be done to generally speed things up and on a regular and predictable basis without sacrificing quality.  I can say this with complete confidence and honest reporting that when I have tuning only appointments I schedule them 90 minutes apart.  That means one hour to tune assuming it's a two pass tuning and thirty minutes to get to the next appointment or allow for a few extra things should they be required. This isn't hurrying, stressing or feeling under the gun, this in normal relaxed pace--focus is a matter of auto pilot at this point.  

    Today was an example.  Four pianos, every piano but one needed 10 -12 cents correction. I stopped for lunch and was home by 1:30. Those got two passes (plus there's always a final unisons only listen to before I close it up at which time I usually touch up the voicing as well), in and out in one hour exactly including some casual "how's the family" conversation.  One piano was within a couple of cents of pitch and so it was one pass plus unisons check.  I was done in 40 minutes, took an extra 20 minutes to help my 95 year old customer bring in the garbage cans and diagnose an leak in her garage.  I attribute that to hammer technique and the benefits of ETD tuning eliminating unwanted steps, checks and corrections.  When tuning aurally I wouldn't schedule appointments closer than every two hours--and I'm not slow.  Ninety minutes in and out was typical. BTW, I do tune unisons aurally.  

    The secret to going faster is as I mentioned, efficiency plus eliminating uneccessary steps, but not eliminating necessary ones.  That will account for differences between these two methods, IMO.  

    To quote Woody Allen, "I took the Evelyn Wood speed reading course.  I read War and Peace in two hours.  It's about Russia".

    I don't think that's what we're aiming for.  

    But to each his (or her) own.  I'm with Fred on how I'd rather spend my "free" time.  Life is short enough as it is.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 54.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-07-2014 21:51


    -------------------------------------------
    David Andersen
    Los Angeles CA
    310-391-4360
    -------------------------------------------
    Every head a planet---I really like the shorter Faulk hammer---carbon sheathed in aircraft-grade aluminum---it suits me to a "T."
    BTW, I'm completely aural, and open-string (no strip) and it takes me between 60 and 90 minutes for the best tuning I can do. 
    I love tuning, because every single piano is custom: different pin feel, different inharmonicity, different stretch. When I can make the piano sing just just my ears and hands, it means something to me. It empowers me (to use a word that the New Age has made cheesy and pretentious) and adds to the feeling of being an artisan, carrying on a passion and a tradition. It feels good.







  • 55.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-07-2014 22:00
    Not "just just," "just with..."

    -------------------------------------------
    David Andersen
    Los Angeles CA
    310-391-4360
    -------------------------------------------








  • 56.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-08-2014 06:04
    To clarify the marathon/sprinting contention, Many if not all ETD apologists argue, "Well, I was only aural for fifty years," so on and so forth... I don't believe it. I just don't believe it. The ones I knew best change there story, I don't even think they remember it changed. A phase where one claims the superiority of the ETD was discovered and turns into the sole system for tuning instead now was part of the fifty year aural tuning phase. What really is happening is neophytes are walking into an expensive tuning examination and falling flat on their face trying to tune the midrange over and over because everyone tells them to use the ETD. Don't. The marathon/sprint idea has a few meanings. ETD's, again, do get you out of the gate faster. Beginning tuners have a few things to gain from not using them, stability from floating pitch more, more fundamental intervals in the bass which some musicians can appreciate, even more, than expanded intervals, voicing advantages from listening more. But altering pitch or not, I spent 1,500 dollars on one because I was not satisfied with my results tuning aurally yet after a fair amount of aural tuning experience, and it took a few more years when after experimenting with it, I found my voice tuning aurally. It was actually stability and pitch raising problems that forced me to abandon the ETD. So it gives you a head start more than simplifies and speeds up. But nobody wants to admit it does because nobody wants to admit they can't aural tune if they want. "I could if I want." Well then why create unnecessary expense? Why add that to the motion of tuning? "Well, it's faster." Not enough are telling the truth. Not enough flat out admit, "I can't tune aurally," many, who took an RPT tuning exam under less demanding conditions one day, and got lucky. But sure, if you don't complete your career aural tuning, you have by fiat proven it is inferior, just by the fact you didn't finish the race. But being an aural tuner is a marathon. You can't really claim to be one and turn to the ETD, or vice versa. Marathons generally are going to require more pacing. So does aural tuning. I admit, YES, you have to jog part of the way aural tuning. Aural tuning must be more engaged and thoughtful, you MUST be careful not to go too fast. It is NOT a stretch or unfair to compare ETD use with futurism, and unless you do use the manifesto as a reference, as that almost all tuners in this country have tried ETDs, you will not make the necessary adjustments to recognize an entirely different weltanschauung is necessary for aural tuning. It is not that it is slower. Particularly, when learning, again, you must pace yourself, it is nothing like ETD tuning. You CANNOT move on until the note is RIGHT, because if you do, you will not do something superior to an ETD. But this is not a tuning class. Those aural tuners who have not experimented with ETDs do miss this distinction to some degree because when you don't make it, you fail to realize there is a kind of reckless abandon about ETDs that is more like sprinting. There is form in sprinting, but a marathon takes a thought process about what is ahead of you and what will be behind you, form as well, yes, that just is not part of ETD tuning. As for the new age, Paul Winter and Shirly MacLaine seem sentimental now. Does the search for the earth key have to be abandoned? No we won't find that on jupiter, but common ground, does an answering service in Colorado provide a better pitch source than whales, wolves, and eagles? Do we compromise pitch by relying on an answering service in Colorado? Will an ETD reveal the harmony of the spheres? There are so many things ETD users claim I just don't buy. "It is better at pitch raising." No it's not, I've experimented and proven it is not, in fact, it is less stable in the end, and the software cannot account for tons of tension variance between different pianos simply by "measuring the inharmonicity of a string." Again, "My unison tuning is better now." I am not impressed with the stability of unisons with ETD users, and think in regions where they are predominant, musicians have become accustomed to something unpleasant, which forces them to pay us more for more frequent tuning as a result of less stable ETD unison tuning, unisons that all too often don't even sound good in the first place. I don't only go to my concerts. As the cobbler responded to Flavius in Shakespeare's Julius Ceaser, "But wherefore art not in thy shop today? Why dost thou lead these men about the streets?" You can use any tuning hammer and technique you like, stability puts you out of work like being sedentary a cobbler, who responded, "Truly, sir, to wear out their shoes, to get myself into more work." I stand by my contention. Tight bearing pianos require more time to tune, or they will be unstable. The cardinal virtue of ETD users, speed, is not possible with tight bearing pianos without compromising stability and accuracy for that matter. I don't care if you are so popular your clients won't notice, though I would echo many of the great sentiments expressed about hammer technique. Susan, in particular, makes some obervations I have experienced. I would add that flex in the hammer is a source of stability by allowing the string to bear at termination points that are more likely not to change. The jump can help with stability because the string finds its own bearing rather than the tuner fighting the string to act in a way it is not inclined to. So finishing strong tuning aurally, requires some jogging. You must go slower to go finish at all, particularly, to learn how to do it right. It is more of a learning process, and to be an aural tuner, you must be willing to take more time in the earlier stages, or you will never get good enough to prefer your tuning to the ETD. ------------------------------------------- Benjamin Sloane Cincinnati OH 513-257-8480 -------------------------------------------


  • 57.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-08-2014 14:01
    So many insults, so little time.  Using an ETD does require some hand eye coordination, not everyone has that, it requires some skill acquisition.  It is easy to fall into the trap of not paying attention to pin dynamics when deciding that the pitch target vis a vis the pin, has been reached.  But, of course, that can happen to aural tuners too.  All the ETD tuners that I know tune unisons by ear, that's about 2/3 of the piano.  Their aural skills are clearly present.  The best ETD users monitor the machines and periodically make minor corrections, that requires some aural skill.  

    Here's a experiment anyone can do.  Detune a piano 10 cents flat, uniformly or not, as you like.  As an aural tuner you will now have an advantage over the normal course of things because you will know exactly how you detuned it--you don't get that benefit in the real world.   Borrow an RCT and use Smarttune function or use a Verituner and follow the pitch raised protocol I've recently outlined there (I'm not as familiar with the pitch raise function of the SATIV, the SAT III is not as refined as the other two). Tune the piano once aurally doing a pitch raise and once using the ETD.  Give yourself a set time, say an hour.  Do it both ways, using the ETD and aurally.  Start with 250 points and deduct 1 point for each string that out of tune by more than 2 cents.  See what your score is.  

    Re David A.'s comments.  Tuning in a way that gives one the greatest pleasure is completely legitimate and I wouldn't question it for a minute.  That he takes 60 - 90 minutes is a testament to the length of time it takes to tune aurally and would take most aural tuners to do a thorough job of it.  David is highly skilled and aims for quality.  Most people will take longer to tune at that level.  If I'm tuning a piano for 90 minutes (with an ETD), it's because it was 100 cents flat and required muiltiple pitch corrections before fine tuning.  Even then, 90 minutes would be a long time.  

    Nevertheless the original question was how to go faster, not what gives more pleasure, how do you currently like to work, what are your own personal biases.  I took it to be an objective inquiry, what can I do to make this happen faster.  ETDs used properly and with the proper skill set, are faster for reasons previously mentioned.  

    Anyway, I've certainly overstayed my welcome on this topic but I will close with one comment.  I hear so many technicians complaining about not making enough money, about how the techs are treated, respected, rewarded yada yada yada.  All I can say is while it isn't a hobby for most of us, if you examine the business models, attitudes and ideas of many, it's not surprising that you hear this complaint. If you don't want people to treat you like you do this as a hobby then operate like a business.  But I digress...

    I think I'll go outside and walk in the rain.  It is the weekend, I do have some time saved ;-) and I haven't seen much around here lately.  


    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 58.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-08-2014 14:27
    I always like a challenge.  ETD's slow me down as well, and I don't like how the temperament turns out, so I have to tweek them every time, using my ears. I have to look at the peak chart, the floating bar chart and then still the cents +/- as well as ears, which are more artistic (if you will) how to make the piano sound nice.  The students will love this as I don't tune them together as often as I should.

    We have a practice room on our 3rd floor with 2 Baldwin M's nestled together.  One on the west side, which get's a tiny bit of the afternoon sun, but not much right now as the sun is too south; and it's a '70's.  the other one that never gets sun until the height of summer was built in 1941. 

    Should I try an experiment?  I could do one tuning on the West Piano with TuneLab, and at the same visit, tune aurally on the other?  I will time each and record the pitch before on each.  Then, of course  that's all we can do for stability etc.  Students like the older one so if not played the same amount of time, would be impossible to monitor. I always tune them at the same time, but aurally until my recent iPad "gift" from the Director.  Tuned about twice a year.

    Or, Should I Tune lab the shaded one and aural the West piano?  Would it make a difference? 

    Im only looking at tuning time on this topic but would be happy to try it next week.

    Thoughts?

    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    Glenn Korff School of Music
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu

    -------------------------------------------








  • 59.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-08-2014 17:35
    I suppose if we really want to do this kind of test in an objective and fair way there are other considerations.  As I mentioned, ETDs do require a skill set, namely hand eye coordination.  If one is not used to working that way it could conceivably slow you down until that skill set is required.  As I mentioned, ETD users must develop both hand eye coordination (for the spinner) as well as hand ear (for tuning unisons).  They must also maintain a aural skill set to make judgement calls when necessary.  

    I can't comment on TuneLab because I've never used it.  I don't find any objections with temperaments set with RCT or Verituner or SATIII (those are the ones I've used).  The SATIII produced more need for periodic corrections for me than the other two though there weren't always overrides to make.  I have not used the SATIV.  The RCT and Verituner (I currently use Verituner) don't require overriding decisions very often and as Fred (I think) said in an earlier post usually those corrections are not the machines fault but the user failing to hit the calculated target.  The difference between the machines I attribute that to diffennce in the sampling of notes perhaps.  I have tuned with two machines side by side as an experiment to see how they might differ and most of the differences are at the extremes, as you might expect, based on different default stretch numbers--all of which can be custom set to your own preference.  Generally speaking, dividing a single octave into twelve equal (or unequal) parts is one of the strengths of the machine.  If you prefer a more customized temperament then that may be something different.  

    The point of this was to show that the aural tuner simply has more steps to accomplish, meaning specifically aural checks, that the ETD user eliminates, and, in addition, consistent and fast single pass pitch corrections that get you on target and I do mean on target, +/- 2 cents often less on the more sophisticated machines given proper settings and pianos whose pitch corrections have a modicum of uniformity. Every check takes some time as does the correction if the check indicates a change is necessary.  The ETD user doesn't have that or has far fewer.  In pitch correction mode there are no checks necessary at all, no guestimates about how far to overpull the note, no mistaken underpulls or overpulls, no surprise sections to deal with, no termperament setting, it's not even necessary to set A4 to the pitch reference.  Just take a few samples and tune straight up from A0 to C88.  Done in as much time is required to move the hammer to the next note.  This is not a matter of pounding one's chest this is just data.  People can do with it what they prefer, including ignore it.  

    A reasonable experiment would have to try and tease out all unnecessary variables and provide a real world experience using current technologies, specifically, sophisticated pitch raise programming.  That is not that easy to do and requires, probably, two tuners having the same tuning lever skill set with pianos are equal in their rendering and pin response, etc., etc.....

    To Keith's point, this was not at all about one-upmanship.  It's about trying to determine for the benefit of the questioner if ETD use produces, on average, faster and more predictable tuning times without sacrificing quality, or yet, with more consistent quality for the time taken.  Stability doesn't come from more time spent, it comes from more skill and the ability to know when the pin and string are settled.  That comes from a defined set of tuning hammer skills and experience.  

    I've already answered that question for myself having worked at developing a skill set for each system (and in spite of others' snarky suggestions, I was a very good aural tuner).  The answer for me has been abundantly clear and not even close.  My tuning time on average (quality tuning was near 90 minutes for an aural tuning (single pass, adjustments to be made on all notes).  About half that with an ETD in the same situation.  Pitch corrections are consistently 20 minutes and accurate in one pass (exceptions of course on pianos that are, say, 100 cents flat.  Two pitch corrections might well be called for there.  Admittedly, I don't do a lot of 100 cent corrections but I do run into them on occasion.  As far as stability goes, I do a fair amount of concert work, regular venues.  Nothing tells you more about the stability of your tuning than doing concerts on a weekly basis.  The tunings I do are as stable as one could expect (to your point).  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 60.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-08-2014 19:37
    -------------------------------------------
    Subject: What's the secret to going faster?
    On 02-08-2014 19:12, David Love wrote:

    > ...I can't comment on TuneLab because I've never used it...

    The most recent Tunelab version has a revamped algorithm for pitch raising. With it, very often I can do pitch raises up to about 50c *and* tunings with a single pass, unisons as I go, and be right on target or +/- 2c after that pass, plus touching up stray unisons. Every note tuned, less than an hour. Takes practice, getting to know the software, correlating what it's "saying" to what you're hearing. But I still surprises me very often. Highly recommended for going faster.



  • 61.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-08-2014 19:49
    Oh, also, someone wrote about the Levitan "C" lever. I think it's called the "Pro" now. I've been using one for about a month. I think I'm a little slower with it than my Fujan when doing fast pitch adjustment only passes (on grands).

    But related to what others were commenting on for "feel," it's awesome. I don't know if it's doing everything it claims, but it sure feels like it completely separates pin rotation and flagpoling into two separate motions, without worrying about the relative position of the handle to the string. So where it contributes to general ability to tune better, it's faster. It's definitely faster in the top octave because you're not having to dance around the end of the piano and prop stick, you just stay seated as normal.

    The ergonomics are excellent, watch the video on Levitan's site and note the body position. That contributes to long term being able to "go faster."


  • 62.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-08-2014 20:21
    Sorry, lots of typos and errors in that last posting--too much sprinting ;-). Hopefully people could read through them.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 63.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-08-2014 21:09
    David L.,

    Perhaps it might be helpful to record a part of a tuning session? Nothing fancy--just grab a smartphone. Upload the audio and let people hear what you are describing with words.

    That might be more helpful than writing about it, since all of us interpret our own tunings in our own way.

    Not to denigrate what you've written. It has been easy to understand. But I keep feeling like we've had this conversation before. Was it in 2013? 2012? 2011? Yes! ;-)

    -------------------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    Blue Mountain MS


    -------------------------------------------








  • 64.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-08-2014 22:59
    Honestly, in spite of what some might think, I don't have that much invested in this.  

    The contribution I made started in response to someone asking how to reduce their tuning time from 2.5 hours to something less.  I offered my objective opinion on two counts.  Those who have chosen to challenge my argument about the speed advantages of ETDs have done so on the basis of things like, aural tuning gives me more pleasure, I like how I tune, when I look back years from now I want to think about how I spent my time, who needs money, you're being greedy and you're lying.  All the while, the self reporting on the issue of speed, on both sides, tends to corroborate my argument.  Now Mr. Nossaman has asserted, ironically, that the discussion always degenerates into a defense of ETD tuning.  He has it exactly backwards.  

    A person taking 2.5 hours to tune is spending too much time on something.  It's either hammer technique or decision making, or wrong decision making followed by corrections.  If you can give me a reasoned argument for why taking more pleasure, cutting back on your expenses, reflections about retirement years, or accusations of spreading falsehood will speed up one's tuning then I implore you to offer them up for the benefit of our original questioner and the rest of us, for that matter.  If not, then satisfy your own intellectual curiosity about whether there might be advantages to using technology for the purpose of greater efficiency.  The future of Silicon Valley may be hanging in the balance. I understand btw, that there are those who can calculate the multitude of components of a complex string scale and rib scale just as fast on a slide rule as a preprogrammed computer spreadsheet.  I would question that but then it would clearly be defensive posturing.  
             
    If our technician continues on his current path I'm sure that he will eventually increase his speed somewhat through sheer determination and practice. Not sure how long that might take but it will eventually happen.  But I took from his inquiry to mean that he wanted suggestions for what he could do now.  I assume he meant something other than finding a way to cut back on the grocery bill or turn off the heat.  

    "Not to denigrate what you've written...but..."  Really John.  If it's been as easy to understand as you suggest, you don't need a demonstration.   


    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 65.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-09-2014 08:31
    David L.,

    I have no doubts about your process, as you have written quite well about that. What is in question is the result of your process. It's not hard to write from afar about one's abilities or successes. But how does it compare with what others experience in their tuning work? If you are tuning like the video Ed Sutton posted, I'm not believing that that tuning will be stable. Many notes might be, but not all. But it was very fast....

    For instance, what does the piano sound like when you are finished with your 45 minute tuning or hour pitch raise/tuning? Unisons, double, triple, and quadruple octaves? IMO, 45 minutes is hardly enough to do a *very* thorough job of *all* the above. Not saying it can't be done, or that it won't satisfy 95% of your clients. And trying not to offend your abilities. I might be pleasantly surprised once I hear a recording of your work. And it might inspire me to push myself to new limits.

    Trying to not be snarky. Really. I also use RCT occasionally, but still prefer aural tuning most of the time. Seems like my aural work is a little bit "warmer" than RCT, although RCT does a very nice job.


    -------------------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    Blue Mountain MS


    -------------------------------------------








  • 66.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-09-2014 10:30
    John F:

    Let me take these points one by one:

    1.  The "you're lying" camp has already been represented.  I am not alone in accomplishing a tuning at this pace.  Other ETD users that I know report similar outcomes.  I am not interested in proving anything to you.
    2.  I don't know what Ed Sutton does, I have not seen the video and can't comment.
    3.  The tunings I do are stable.  You'll have to take my word for it.   I tune concerts, as I mentioned, not infrequently, and all tunings of instruments that allow it aim at the same high quality since I tune for a lot of highly skilled and sensitive musicians.  A final unison check is always done while the ETD follows me.  The unison check tells you about the stability of the unison, the ETD following tells you whether the pitch setting was stable to begin with.  
    4.  If you can't produce a stable tuning using an RCT in that time frame or thereabouts then if you were asking  (which you're not) I'd suggest you work on your hammer technique.  I've outlined a method for that earlier in the thread.  If you want to tune aurally, then I would say expect to take a little bit longer. 
    5.  I have done a live demonstration of the hammer technique that I outlined twice in formal settings.  Once in a tuning seminar given by Israel Stein for associate members and then again for the local chapter at the request of Mr. Stein who thought the technique was valuable enough that it should be shared.  If interested about the veracity of that claim you can inquire with him.
    6.  If you don't like the tuning that the RCT produces then don't use it.  I have no issue with that.  Personal choice.  However, before you abandon it you might consider whether you have explored the capacity of the technology,  specifically the ability to modify and customize stretch numbers.  All the ETDs have this capacity in various forms.  I currently prefer the Verituner system because it mirrors the aural technique more closely (there are other reasons as well which I won't go into here).  However, I didn't find anything to complain about with the RCT at either the standard settings or the customized ones and, in some ways, preferred that stock pitch correction modes.  Verituner requires some customization of those settings for me but works very well when that is accomplished and followed, not difficult.  
    7.  And finally I'll add a comment about Michael Gamble's post.  This is, again, philosophy.  Had the thread been titled "10 Reasons Why I love to Tune Pianos", or "How I would like to look back on my career", or "Maximizing personal satisfaction in your job", you would not have seen a single posting from me.  Legitimate topics, but I'm not interested in that.  Had the discussion stuck to what the subject line implies which is: What are the mechanics of tuning that might allow me to get the job done sooner without compromising quality" then the thread would be a fraction of it's current length.  Had I been spared feeling compelled to respond to people like you or others who have basically argued in the manner of, you're lying, or, you probably sucked at aural tuning, then the thread would have been shorter yet.  That I chose to even dignify those comments with a response at all is, of course, my own failing. So I will spare the inmates further comments on this topic no matter the off topic insults thrown my way.  If someone wants me to clarify my thoughts on the mechanics of all this (though I'm not sure what I could possibly add at this point), then I am happy to do so off list. 

    Really, the longer I'm in this trade the more I wonder whether it's just the last bastion of the virtually unemployable. 

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 67.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-09-2014 10:45
    I meant that last line as a joke but at the risk that some will misinterpret it, consider it retracted, which I've done here.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 68.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-09-2014 13:40
    David said,
    <<Really, the longer I'm in this trade the more I wonder whether it's just the last bastion of the virtually unemployable. >>

    And before reading his next post, I said to myself, "David, that's really very cute. Good for you."

    When I first learned to tune and started going out and making money at it, it seemed to me that piano tuning had stood behind the door when all the other professions were ruined. It combines freedom, simplicity, a direct connection with one's customers, and a tremendous control over one's circumstances. It cannot be outsourced. It is unhindered by union rules and government interference. No one suffers from the "work lock" which has showed up in the news this week in connection with Obamacare (which frees millions of people from it.) That is, no one has to keep tuning pianos when they wish they didn't have to just in order to stay on a company health plan. Okay, we are not slaves to "benefits" because we have none -- but we are still not slaves to them. And we are not living in dread of "pink slips". Any given customer can decide not to hire us again, and many probably do, but many others don't, and they won't all decide to fire us at the same time.

    These days, these virtues are not trivial, compared to what most of the working public has been putting up with.

    And, David, I am not one of the doubters who tried to tell you that you couldn't be doing as well as you say you are. Wouldn't work for me, but if your business model works for you and your customers in your location, then it does.

    And that's another very rare virtue of this business -- piano technology has an amazing flexibility and will adapt itself to suit many different kinds of people with varying skillsets and interests and limitations. It truly is a bastion, and almost the last one out there, and this otherwise minimally employable person is very glad to have it. Just try being 67 with a few health challenges and find another field where people are not only eager to offer one work, but grateful when the offer is accepted.

    ---------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, OR
    ---------------------------------














  • 69.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-09-2014 16:47
    Great post Susan. Excellent points.

    Gary Howell originally asked, "It takes me two and half hours to tune a piano.  I'm certain others probably don't take that long and I'm assuming there must be some little tips and tricks for going faster.  Do you have any?"

    So, Gary, aren't you glad you asked? Are you confused yet? Ask three piano tuners a question and you are likely to get five (sometimes contradictory) answers. There does seem to be a consensus among experienced technicians that a good quality tuning takes somewhere between 45 to 90 minutes - depending on who you talk to and, of course, depending on the condition of the piano and other circumstances - some of which are beyond our control. Over time we all develop our own approaches to tuning. Experiment and try any approach that seems reasonable. A few years from now you'll probably be tuning in 1/2 (or less) than your current time and you won't remember when you got to be so fast. You may also have become quite opinionated as to which approach is best... 

    -------------------------------------------
    Gerry Johnston
    Haverhill, MA
    gj@gjpianotuner.com
    www.gjpianotuner.com
    (978) 372-2250
    -------------------------------------------








  • 70.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-09-2014 21:07
    An even better post, Gerry, as to future possibilities. Tks!

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv



  • 71.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-09-2014 21:28
    David L.,

    I really wasn't trying to get under your skin. 

    But now I will...just a little. ;-)

    With all that free time you have, instead of writing responses to what I didn't even mention, just record the middle section during a tuning. Upload it. I'm sure it would be helpful to many. I'm sure I'd learn something also. Which is one of the reasons I enjoy this little discussion group.

    <End of under-skin-getting>

    And, yes, I can do and have done 45 minute tunings with an ETD. Some years ago with a Verituner, and also with RCT. It's not impossible to do that in that length of time. But it is somewhat dubious that one can do a very careful unison and multiple octaves check and make corrections in that length of time. Octave always show up the wiggling unisons. And it takes some time to fix that. But hey, if you can do all that and retain a modicum of sanity, more power to you. :-)

    I have done some 45-50 minute aural tunings. But that is only when everything falls exactly into place. It seldom happens for me, honestly. I'm more of an hourish kind of tuner. Some more, some less.



    -------------------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    Blue Mountain MS


    -------------------------------------------








  • 72.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2014 15:49

    I never said it resulted in "free" time, just more time to use on other things and there are plenty of those, but thank you for the suggestion.

    I won't be making a video but if someone wants to invite me to a regional conference to give a class on tuning efficiency, which will include a comparison of aural and ETD techniques as well as hammer techniques, I'd be happy to consider preparing one. 

    Unison checks are, of course, part of any tuning and octave unison checks I do as I go usually while I'm moving the mute in the initial process--reach over with my right hand, play the octave with my left hand and listen.  With an ETD it is done as a verification and not a requirement for setting the note in the first place--there's a difference.  A second and final octave check is also done in the same manner, testing unisons by the playing of double and triple octaves as well as the octaves themselves.  I rarely find need to alter those in the process that I use.  On occasion the crossover (bass to tenor) can be a problem but I tend to tune from the tenor section up and then from the top of the bass down so I'm checking those notes with a quick verification as I go  That doesn't take long unless you want to hang onto each note through the entire duration of its sustain, which I don't.  Further, if your hammer technique is up to par not many corrections will be necessary.  If it's not, then you will have more clean up to do.  More time lost.

    As to the original question my suggestion would be to try and isolate where the time issues are and I would do so as follows (assuming that you are tuning aurally).

    1. Strip mute the entire piano and tuning aurally, track the amount of time that it takes to set all the bearings, i.e., one note of each unison.  Include the time it takes to verify as you would before tuning embarking on the unisons.

    2. Once done, remove the strip mute and track the amount of time it takes to set all the unisons.  

    From those two you will see where you are spending the most time.  #1 includes pitch setting to a pitch reference (A440 or whatever), temperament setting, and octave setting from the temperament. #2 is a process shared by both ETD and aural tuners.

    If you are slow in the #2 process then you need work on your hammer technique and perhaps learning to recognize earlier in the envelope when things are open or closed.  If you are fine on #2 but slow on #1 then you need more work on the decision making processes, a more efficient method of setting the temperament and octaves and perhaps hammer technique if you are having to return to notes to correct them after your initial settings.  If you are slow on both then you need to work on both.  If you have a lot of cleanup to do on unisons that you've set then you need to work on hammer technique and/or opened/closed listening skills.  If you skip the normal aural checks required to do a thorough and accurate aural tuning in the process of this test then I think you are cheating yourself but that is up to you.

    I realize that some people tune aurally one note at a time, unisons as they go.  In fact many very skilled tuners do this  There are some benefits to doing it that way and I also tune unisons as I go.  But I don't recommend that for developing tuners who are concerned about time (unless they are using an ETD).  Anything that needs correction in that method will not only require the retuning of the all unisons for that note but any other notes and unisons where that note was used as a reference.  More time lost.

    Just my suggestions with respect to time issues alone, hopefully no one will read anything more into this than that.  

    I'll leave the pitch raising question out of this as it seems to be too volatile a subject for some reason.  

       
    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 73.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-10-2014 20:17
    David and others,

    Good points.

    Today I took my own suggestion and recorded an actual pitch raise and tuning of a Yamaha G3 piano. Here is the link to tuning of the midrange unisons. I'm sharing this with two hopes in mind:

    1. I hope this will lead to a collegial discussion for the betterment of all of us (including me as I know my tuning can certainly improve)
    2. It will (hopefully) demonstrate to others what it's like to tune at the beginning of the attack rather than waiting for the decay.
    So here you have it. Critique is welcome, constructive or otherwise. Just keep in mind that this is not submitted with the idea of perfection in mind. It was a first tuning of the day...on a Monday...after a long week with not nearly enough sleep...three hard bike rides and two moderate 3-5 mile runs, then a 47:50 10K run on Sunday afternoon, followed by an easy hour-long bike ride on an indoor trainer. And too much coffee this morning to get started. And nerves realizing that I'm gonna be putting this tuning out there for all to hear. ;-)

    http://my.ptg.org/Go.aspx?c=ViewDocument&DocumentKey=04856274-9c3e-445a-9d56-99ae31587b88

    I might upload some of the other sections as well. But, gosh, it's so boring to listen to the whole thing! I might do it as I have time and if there is any interest.

    Again, a recording of what you do would be most welcome.


    -------------------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    Blue Mountain MS


    -------------------------------------------








  • 74.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2014 21:50
    John:

    First, thank you for posting that.  I appreciate you making that effort and putting it out there.  

    Since we both tune unisons aurally I think I can comment.  Your method differs from mine in one major way.  What I hear is a consistent flexing of the pin to move the pitch above the target and then a settling back.  If the pitch doesn't settle back with the unflexing of the pin to where you want it then you start the process again either by pushing it down or pulling it back up always with a fairly large move (relatively speaking for my goal) above the pitch followed by a settling back down.  If the pitch is above the target then you push it down below the target, flex the pin to move the pitch above the target and then settle back down to the target.  Now that may not be an accurate description but that is what I hear.  

    My method of hammer pin manipulation doesn't have nearly the pitch movement away from the target at any point (on average).  In fact, the method I use allows me to tune more directly to the pitch target utilizing the basic method that I described earlier and also which Fred has described.  The control of the flexing of the pin avoids the back and forth across the pitch movement until things finally settle in.  There is more guesswork in your method--how much above the pitch do I need to go so that when I apply back pressure on the pin it drops to where I want it.  I don't want nearly that much pitch movement away from the target but rather can feel the amount of movement in the pin which is directly reflected in the pitch movement itself.  When things are moving well on a good piano with decent rendering, I feel like I can tune directly to the pitch and stop and it stays.  There is some wiggle of the pin at the end just to insure that I have not left any unreleased torque in the pin (or that I leave the slightest bit of torque where I want it--this is another separate detail for another time), but that mostly is a check.

    I realize that after a pitch correction of 6-10 cents things may not be exactly where you want them for a starting point, but to that end I would say that I would prefer that you were starting from a point closer to your pitch than you are and also from a consistent starting point, either slightly above or slightly below but not a random combination of the two of varying magnitudes.  That can compromise stability of the already tuned strings and unisons where there are shared lengths between notes, and make getting into any kind of working rhythm more difficult.  As I've mentioned, I think this is very difficult to do accurately with an aural pitch raise, certainly for me it is.    

    If I can, I will post a recording of unison tuning at some point.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 75.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-11-2014 09:36
    Just uploaded the aural pitch raise. Will comment later as time permits.

    http://my.ptg.org/Go.aspx?c=ViewDocument&DocumentKey=4124e451-2b3a-4633-9b82-04eeb0e3a682

    -------------------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    Blue Mountain MS


    -------------------------------------------








  • 76.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-11-2014 09:48
    David L.,

    Appreciate the kind remarks. 

    I think I understand what you've written about your lever technique. And if I've interpreted your writing correctly, I've already done some experimenting with that...even fairly recently again. My conclusion was that it doesn't really affect stability that much, at least for me. A lot of the pitch wiggling around is pin flex. I'm of the opinion that pin flex doesn't cause instability as long as one knows the relationship of the pin in the block and how the string is rendering. In my trials of a less pin-flexy method, I noticed maybe a tiny bit better stability, but still had wiggly unisons after the tuning was done. And this with RCT or aural work. IMO, it's unrealistic to expect piano tuning to be inherently stable. There is always pitch wiggling after a number of hours.

    And another thing I've noticed is that as long as I'm feeling the pin movement correctly, lever position doesn't really matter to me. I can tune at 10:00-4:00 and get the same pin sensation and an idea of where it's gonna end up. 

    Would love to hear your unison tuning, as I'm certain I'll learn from it. Feel free to contact me off list if you need any idea of how to do that.

    -------------------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    Blue Mountain MS


    -------------------------------------------








  • 77.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2014 10:23
    Again, I do really appreciate posting this and I'll try and do something when I can.  If done with an ETD as a demonstration tool it's easy to visualize what is happening with the pitch as well as hear it but the visual image is in many ways more telling.  That presents some technical problems for me to get done.

    Let me say a couple of things re stability.

    Stability, or instability, comes from one of two things, or both.  Either the pin itself is left in a position where it is not stable, meaning some flexing remains that will change over time, or the string segments are left unequal.  It's one of those two.  

    With respect to the string, the more you move the string away from the target pitch, the more likely you are to leave the the segments unequal because, in fact, you are introducing a wider range of tension variability in each of those segments.  If you could manipulate the pin in such a way that there was no flexing (imagine a screw stringer) then if you wanted to raise the pitch you would simply turn the screw as you played the note and incrementally raise the pitch until you hit your target.  Assuming that there wasn't a serious rendering problem you might over shoot or undershoot slightly based on your aural skills or the slight delay in string rendering but you would never have to take the pitch farther away from the target than your starting point.  Therefore you never introduce more deviation in the string segments from the target pitch than existed in the first place.  

    The question, then, is can you move the pin in such a way that it behaves like a screw stringer and tune, in essence, directly to the pitch without introducing the back and forth pitch deviation that occurs with flag-polling.  And the answer is yes you can in the manner the I described and that Fred corroborated by what amounts to a counter flexing of the pin in order to remove the flagpolling effect on the pitch.

    So then the other issue is whether you can do that and consistently leave the pin in a state of equilibrium because you are introducing a flexing to offset the twisting--two different stresses on the pin.  But since the pin is more closely connected to you via the tuning lever, a feel for the pin being in equilibrium is much easier to develop than if the string is in equilibrium, the string being once removed, like a distant cousin, as it were.

    This is what is difficult to put into a recording because the forces being introduced to achieve this are not heard.  What is heard are much smaller pitch movements back and forth (if any), as I mentioned, it will sound like you are tuning directly to the pitch required.  In fact, you can flex and move the pin in such a manner that when you settle the pin the pitch will actually rise to the target pitch rather than having to settle the pitch back to the target.  That technique (getting to the pitch from under rather than from over) has some advantages in that the front segment will err on the side of fractionally more tension.  Some arguments can be made that that has a slight advantage for stability but that's another discussion which I won't embark on here.  

    Forgive the typos if any, I gotta go to woik. 

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 78.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-12-2014 16:56
    I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying, David. In my own words: hold the lever in a way that takes the pin flex out of the equation so pitch change happens only when the pin moves in the block, and not from the pin flexing. (Ideally, of course.) Removing pin flex for a right-hander requires a slight downward pressure on the lever.

    And what I'm saying is that pin flexing doesn't affect stability as long as the tuner is controlling how much the pin is moving in the block and compensating for pin flex. I think a good tuner discerns the difference between pitch change from pin flex and pitch change from whatever the combination of pin flex and pin turn. (Obviously, we must define pin flex as the normal stuff good tuners do and not pin bending.) This is what I mean when saying it doesn't really matter at what position the lever is when I'm tuning. I've gotten accustomed to a variety of positions, and can make them all work.

    Here is part of a recording of a tuning I did today. It's a Yamaha C6 this time, and the pitch was closer to target. See if this better audibly illustrates what you are saying about lever technique.

    http://my.ptg.org/Go.aspx?c=ViewDocument&DocumentKey=5e6652c7-53ec-4fcd-8c5d-c7a70bd9c6d3


    -------------------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    Blue Mountain MS


    -------------------------------------------








  • 79.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-12-2014 19:03
    John:

    Well, that's not really what I'm saying.  I'm flexing the pin a lot (in two directions) so I'm not arguing that there's less pin flexing or that it's the pin flex that is the primary problem.  I think I said instability is one of two things, either pin or string--or both.  There might even be more flex when you add it all up, the way I do it.  I'm saying that by flexing the pin in the manner that I do it removes the wider range of pitch fluctuation that comes from movement of the string back and forth through the bearing points.  That is what is the major cause of instability, IMO.  Leaving the segments unequal.  It also is a major cause of time loss insuring that you haven't.  When I'm correcting a unison that is, for example, 2 cents flat.  If I'm on my game and the block isn't snapping all over the place then I'm raising the pitch just two cents without ever going outside of that window or if I am it's a very marginal amount, half a wah just to make sure I know where I am.  It's just straight up to the target (or down).  The string only moves in increments toward the final goal, never really away from it.  That's much different from raising the pitch 5, 10 or more cents above the target, or pushing it way low first and then up above and then back down.  If I do that I'm spending a lot more time making sure that everything is stable, not to count the extra time in getting there.  Again, if you imagine the screw stringer picture it's easy to see what I'm talking about.  

    I'll record a segment at some point (my Droid is about to get exchanged for an iphone) and you'll be able to hear what I mean.  

    I have not yet listened to this recording but I will as soon as I get some free time this evening--yours and Fred's both.  Thanks again to both of you for posting them.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 80.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-12-2014 20:29
    < Again, if you imagine the screw stringer picture it's easy to see what I'm talking about.  David Love

    This brings up a question I have regarding not so much your results, but the description of forces. In talking of the forces created by pin flex and pin twist, there is a 3rd force which has not to my mind been called out. I'm pretty sure this 3rd force is in evidence when the screw stringer is tuned. That is, the screw stringer tends to creep sharp, if not approached correctly.

    The 3rd force is that in order for the speaking length to move sharp, the front segment must be equal to speaking length + the amount of tension needed to increase pitch + tension to overcome tension at the termination points + tension greater than any other frictions contained in the front segment.  That's a lot of greater than speaking length plus's in that front segment. Those additional, temporary tensions have to be accounted for in order for the string to remain stably at pitch. If not accounted for, the front segment will pull the speaking length sharp.

    If the pin technique you describe is limited to controlling pin effects in the speaking length/front segment train, then the  3rd force mentioned above, unless countered after arriving at pitch, will pull things sharp.  I suppose this is where the playing hand comes in, in terms of equalizing the segments incrementally and numerous times during the pitch change, but I don't see Fred using the playing hand in this fashion.  Another way that 3rd force could be counteracted for, I think, is demonstrated by Fred's videos (thanks greatly Fred!), where the force applied to the lever may be as you describe, but he is also incrementally pumping or ratcheting the system up to target. This pumping motion, for some reason I'm not really clear on, when I do it, tends to allow me to approach target without overshooting and correcting easier than smoothly pulling up.

    Does this make sense?

    Jim Ialeggio 

     

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------




















  • 81.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-13-2014 00:12
    Jim:

    Yes it does make sense but mostly the rendering of the strings is pretty instantaneous, except, of course, when it isn't.  But most of the time when I'm tuning I can tell if the strings segments are rendering immediately or not.  Today, for example, I tuned two pianos together, both starting at 10 - 20 cents flat.  Of course it took a pitch raise on each first.  One of the pianos did not render well (an old Harrison grand) I would flex the pin and turn it and feel movement in the block but when I released the pin upward so that the pitch should rise it would be slow to respond.  It would have been easy for me to jump the gun and move the pin more thus overshooting when the segments finally equalized.  But, because I knew from experience that I had moved the pin enough to move the pitch I bumped (maybe that's the same as your description of "pumped") the pin a few times while playing the note waiting for the friction points to release and sure enough they did and the pitch climbed to its proper place.  By "waiting" I'm not talking about for very long, it's more of a slight delay than a wait.  So in situations like that some awareness of what is going on will help to anticipate that possibility and avoid that overshoot.  It is trickier however I don't think it changes the general principle.   

    On the other piano (a newish Steinway) the rendering was much better, I could hear (and see--ETD) that the slightest bit of pressure on the handle was causing the pitch to move instantaneously.  The excess tension that might remain in the front section, therefore,  was not a concern or an issue.  It would say that generally rendering issues seem to be more of a problem on uprights than grands and so some patience is required.  But this is something that one becomes aware rather quickly in the process of tuning the piano.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 82.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-13-2014 00:18
    btw, I wasn't meaning to compare this method exactly with a screw stringer, it was just a way to conceptualize the net effect of tuning straight up to the pitch.  Eric Schandall's method that Fred describes is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 83.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-13-2014 10:13
    Jim,
    What you call a pumping/ratcheting motion is the basic element of my own tuning style, has been from the beginning (I was taught to be a "jerk" tuner by the incomparable R.L. Coberly at Grayson County College - one of the best things he taught me). It allows for smaller movements of the pin, more control, and I think it helps get the strings across the bearing points better, and to break settled friction as in rusty terminations. I gauge how much force I have behind the jerk, trying to add just enough to move the pin by the amount I want it to move. Sometimes this means a lot of jerks before I get just enough to move it that little nudge that is needed. Gauging the amount of force in minute increments is where the skill lies, and when I am fatigued I don't have as much of that skill. I know some people have success with a "steady pull/push" method. I never could do that successfully with any control, though I don't quarrel with those who do.

    I'm going to respond here to a later post of David Love, regarding his Harrison grand with quite a bit of bearing friction. In a situation like that, I find it is better to be pulling up on the hammer while turning it (adding flex force rather than subtracting it), trying to have it at the point where that additional flex of the pin creates enough extra pull on the string so that pitch moves with the pin. It is fine to turn the pin, and then pull the string over the bearing points, but only when friction is low enough that you can actually pull the string using flex and twist (and playing the note pretty loud and often while doing all this). When there is too much friction for that, so that you turn the pin enough to produce a 1 - 2¢ pitch change and nothing happens and flexing the pin nothing happens, it is better to add twist and flex while turning the pin in the block, as the jerking motions plus the extra twist and flex may be enough to get the string to move in sync. Otherwise, you have to turn the pin more, until you can pull to pitch, and then you have undoubtedly turned the pin beyond where it should be, so you might back the pin off in the block, estimating how much, hoping to leave it relatively stable. At least that is my approach: adapting the flex of the pin I do consciously to the hammer to the conditions at hand. It works pretty well. When frictional levels get beyond a certain point, it is simply a gambling game, and you do your best.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 84.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-13-2014 11:24
    Fred:

    I don't prefer to do it that way for a couple of reasons.  If there is a rendering problem then leaning the pin back while turning it at the same time adding tension to the short segment can cause you to exceed the break point in the short segment if it doesn't move at the bearing point.  Probably less of a problem in the midrange tenor but it can be in the treble.  I find the same system works if you are a bit patient allowing the rendering to happen and can sense the amount of pin movement in the block required to move to your target (as you described earlier).  Once I know I've moved the pin I just gently bump the lever, maybe back and forth, helping to get the short string segment to release.  Overshooting on a piano that has a rendering problem is a bigger problem to me since easing the pitch back down will be even more problematic than nudging it up.  At least in my experience.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------




    I'm going to respond here to a later post of David Love, regarding his Harrison grand with quite a bit of bearing friction. In a situation like that, I find it is better to be pulling up on the hammer while turning it (adding flex force rather than subtracting it), trying to have it at the point where that additional flex of the pin creates enough extra pull on the string so that pitch moves with the pin. It is fine to turn the pin, and then pull the string over the bearing points, but only when friction is low enough that you can actually pull the string using flex and twist (and playing the note pretty loud and often while doing all this). When there is too much friction for that, so that you turn the pin enough to produce a 1 - 2¢ pitch change and nothing happens and flexing the pin nothing happens, it is better to add twist and flex while turning the pin in the block, as the jerking motions plus the extra twist and flex may be enough to get the string to move in sync. Otherwise, you have to turn the pin more, until you can pull to pitch, and then you have undoubtedly turned the pin beyond where it should be, so you might back the pin off in the block, estimating how much, hoping to leave it relatively stable. At least that is my approach: adapting the flex of the pin I do consciously to the hammer to the conditions at hand. It works pretty well. When frictional levels get beyond a certain point, it is simply a gambling game, and you do your best.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------






  • 85.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-13-2014 12:08
    David,
    My take is that you will have all that tension in the non-speaking portion regardless: you turn the pin, no pitch change BUT the non-speaking segment tension rises. Now you flex the pin to try to coax the string across the bearing. Your flexing action is adding to the high tension. I figure there is no difference in how high you will get that segment between your method in mine, the difference being that in my method I am doing the jerky/springy move while I am flexing upward and twisting the pin, which may help coax the string along. With luck, the pin moves in sync with the string changing pitch. In any case, I find it a more efficient way to get to target, with the caveat that I am trying to control things and definitely not shoot past target (if I do, I drop back below and start again).

    If there is a lot of friction, like many others I drop pitch just the tiniest bit to break that friction before pulling up - I know you know that, just adding it for a more complete picture. And/or lubricate the bearing points, including under string cloth especially.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 86.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-13-2014 23:31
    Fred:

    The truth is, when it comes to pianos that have rendering problems, it's every man (or woman) for themselves.  Whatever works.  

    On that note,  I tuned a 10 year old Hamburg B today that had terrible rendering problems in the tenor section (that nice three mile wide counterbearing felt).  Even a squirt of protek didn't help.  I used my usual technique but had to do a lot of nudging and waiting (relative) for that bearing point (or area) to release.  I was still able to get it done in the normal way but it was like running in molasses.  After that I had a two piano job with an older Steinway to be tuned in unison with an older grey market Yamaha U1 with the same issues in the tenor and treble sections (both pianos).  Sometimes that bottle of Prosecco (yes the whole bottle) is well earned.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 87.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-14-2014 00:04
    David,

    Couldn't agree more with you more about rendering problems in some pianos.

    Seems like one is caught in an never-ending daymare, and seems to take an eternity for those situations to finally be done.

    I truly sympathize with you encountering 3 such beasts in one day ... omg.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv



  • 88.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-14-2014 10:10

    I decided I should try to set down a pretty detailed account of my thinking that led me to the tuning system I use, that I have been describing (similar in many ways to David Love's, but with a few differences in detail). IOW, the theory behind the practice, the thoughts and experiences that have led me to develop a particular technique and approach to tuning that is rather different from what most people do. It's a long post.

    First, I don't believe there is any issue with leaving the pin itself in an unstable state. Tuning pin steel is such that as soon as you remove the twisting and flexing forces from the pin, it will return to its rest condition, essentially instantaneously. To test this notion in real life, take a piano with tight pins and VERY low string bearing friction. Just barely touch the pin, and pitch changes, that sort of piano. Flex the pin in either direction, then let go of the hammer. Pitch moves away, then returns immediately when the hammer is removed, either direction. Twist the pin (not enough to move it in the bock) in either direction, and let go. Same thing happens. Try to leave an instability in the pin: do your utmost to make it so that the string will remain temporarily sharp or flat of its stable state after you remove the hammer. Can you do it? I don't think so. If you can, I believe it is due to there being a wee bit of bearing friction.

    If there is bearing friction, a little or a lot, it is quite possible to leave pitch above or below the stable point, at will. The same experiment on a piano with significant bearing friction will prove that this is so. Thus, the problem we face when trying to achieve tuning stability is centered in string friction, not in pin twist or flex.

    To separate things out, look at tuning from the perspective of a screwstringer: In a screwstringer you just turn the screw, there is no flex or twist of the tuning pin involved. (BTW, Levitan's C hammer emulates this. So does a T hammer). Turn it clockwise and pitch rises, counterclockwise and pitch falls. There IS bearing friction, and the instructions inside the Mason & Hamlin tell you always to approach from below. If you overshoot and go sharp, turn it back to flat and come back up. Why? Because experience shows that coming at pitch from above will leave more unequal tension between string segments than coming from below, or at least an inequality that will more probably lead to instability, creeping over the bearing points later. If you tune one, you will notice that the pitch lags behind the screw: turn is a slight bit and nothing happens, turn a little more and pitch starts to move.

    In fact, if there is a good bit of bearing friction, coming up from below straight to pitch, you might find that the piano will tend to go sharp a bit after being played a while, as the tension equalizes over the friction points.  But it will be less noticeable than if you were tuning downwards in pitch, because the magnitude will be less. (A "trick" is to back off the pin just a bit after you reach pitch, no more of a turn than it took before the pitch started moving when you first started on that string - but it is guesswork). One of the problems of the screwstringer design is that you have no way to compensate for the string friction other than playing the note hard - usually good enough, but not always, and in the little experience I have tuning one, it seems impossible to get a really clean refined tuning. The steel pin in wood block design allows you to compensate for string friction by using pin flex and twist, and thereby get a more refined tuning - if you are skilled at it.

    Focusing in on string bearing friction and the difference between raising pitch and lowering it: When raising pitch, you add tension to the string segment between bearing and the pin, and you can add more through the twist of the pin and by flex. The differential you can create is pretty large. Tension from the high tension segment pulls across the bearing from where the tension is lower. If you are lowering pitch, the high tension segment is the speaking length, so the speaking length is doing the pulling, and you have no way to increase its tension besides hard blows on the key. You are creating a lower tension in the bearing to pin segment, and the higher tension of the speaking length is all there is to pull the string over the bearing (unless you press on the speaking length with a dowel or something - which is a helpful thing to do in some circumstances, but not very predictable as to eventual results). To summarize, "it is easier to pull up than to push down."

    You can test this on a piano with moderate to high bearing friction. "Push" the pitch flat as much as you can by pin flex and twist without moving the pin in the block. Try to get the string to go back to pitch by playing the note loudly. Then try by flexing and twisting the pin (not enough to rotate it). Now do the same on the sharp side. In my experience, I can usually pull up from flat quite a bit more easily than I can push down from sharp. Often I can't push flat from the sharp side at all, even with hard blows and pin flex and twist, but that doesn't mean the pitch won't go flat over time, back to the original stable position. 

    The main driving factor in pianos going out of tune due to unstable condition of the string is the blows of the hammer on the string, which momentarily raise the tension in the speaking length (when the string goes into its widest excursion) - hence that action of hammer blows will tend to pull lower tension wire from the non-speaking length, resulting in lowering of pitch. It won't "push" tension into a higher tension speaking length. It may facilitate pitch going a bit sharp (by getting the string moving) if the tension is unequal enough in that direction, but far less than it will facilitate pitch going flat when the opposite is true. And we rarely see a real problem unison due to a string going sharp - maybe a cent or two in most cases. Flat, 5-10¢ or even more can be common. That is my experience, at any rate. Bottom line: it is better to approach from below, as you have more opportunity of control, especially if there is significant bearing friction to overcome, and you will leave the string in a more stable position.

    As I see it, the fundamental problem of tuning is to get the pin into the precisely correct rotational alignment, the alignment that corresponds to the string being at the correct pitch in a stable state. There is a small window of leeway if there is any string bearing friction at all, as there will be some degree of inequality of string segments that won't cross the bearing point readily, but that window is pretty small. The task is first and foremost to be able to move the pin in the block by a tiny enough amount to get it to that precise alignment, and to be able to do that with a variety of pin block situations (tightness, stickiness, sponginess, etc.). But then there is the puzzle of knowing when the pin is in the correct window of alignment: the only reference we have to go on is string pitch.

    So now we come to the real heart of the issue: how to find out when the pin is in its precise rotational alignment to achieve a stable target pitch. In the normal course of intuitive tuning practice, we don't control things very much. There is twist of the pin, there is flex of the pin, there is bearing friction, and everything is somewhat chaotic in how it adds up. We may put the hammer on at whatever alignment to the pin is most comfortable to the body, resulting in a flex we don't really know about or account for. Or we put it where some authority told us to,, not really being aware of why and how that impacts the results. Pitch will usually go past target (most often multiple times in both directions), and most commonly that will mean going above target and then being "settled back." We manipulate the hammer and pin, guessing how much to pull up and push back (or vice versa), and when it seems we may probably have reached the target pretty closely, and we are tired of wrestling, we call it good enough. I am describing how I learned to tune. Eventually I began to take some aspects into account, but not in any systematic way. I more or less evolved a certain set of tricks, including the pull up/settle back "pin setting" theory. I ALWAYS went beyond pitch and settled back. And it was always guesswork whether the pin really was in the spot it should have been. And I had stability issues, not so bad, but definitely a problem when you come to the high expectations I work under most of the time.

    Putting all these factors together, my solution is a simple one: to tune in such a way that the change of pitch of the string changes simultaneously with the turn of the pin in the block (as close as I can possibly accomplish that), and always to approach pitch from below. I've already described how I do that, so I won't repeat it here. The point is that I know where the target pin alignment is at all times (it's in the sharp direction unless I overshoot, in which case I go back below target), I know when I have reached it, and when I have reached it the string is also in a stable state, because I haven't created instability by my actions. When I reach target pitch, I am there. The amount of added tension in the non-speaking segment was just enough to pull the string over bearing, overcoming friction there, so when I release the hammer, the added tension will disappear, and the tension of that segment will be equal to the tension of the speaking length. Nice theory - AND it works (within the parameters of human frailty interacting with the physical world).

    Re-reading this, I see it is pretty dense stuff, and rather rambling. I have been wrestling with how to describe all this for a long time, and I end up chasing my tail and becoming frustrated. I think I will call it the best I can do for now. I hope I have succeeded in explaining some aspects in a way that makes sense, and might be helpful in some way to others.



    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------




  • 89.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-14-2014 11:58
    I think that's a pretty good description, Fred, and can't find much to disagree with as it reflects my own approach and for the same reasons and results (re stability).  Whether you can leave some flex or twist in the pin or, perhaps, leave the pin in such a way that it is not resting solidly against the front bearing surfaces of the pinblock is a question I'm not sure about.  Also, since the pin is being pulled (and twisted) by the tension from the string, does the pin react to that after you've left it?  Is there some "creep" of the pin either pulling it forward (toward the string) or twisting and if so does settling the pin simply mean putting it in the position where these stresses from the string will inevitably take it?  I can't answer that question but it seems that there is that possibility in which case addressing the flex and twist of the pin is a part of achieving stability.   

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 90.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-14-2014 13:49
    David,
    The tuning pin certainly does move after the hammer leaves it: it "untwists" and "unflexes." Whatever you were doing to it with the hammer is undone (and a large part of that is being pulled by the string, both rotationally and toward the speaking length by tension). I don't believe, though, that there is any significant "wiggle room" for the pin to be left in an unstable condition, that there is any additional creep after the initial settling. The force of the string, together with the nature of the steel pin, don't leave much room for an unstable condition - unless the torque is so low the pin doesn't hold in the wood. 

    That said, in my technique I will always do something of a "wiggle" "spring" motion, in both the flexing and twisting modes, but the purpose is to check to see that the string either doesn't move or preferably moves equally in both directions. It certainly doesn't seem that when I do that wiggle the pin is changing at all: I am moving it from a centered position in both directions. I could be wrong, but if so I think it is negligible enough to be ignored. I think the big issue is in the string.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 91.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-14-2014 17:26
    It has just occurred to me that I was inaccurate in saying that Dan Levitan's C hammer, along with the T hammer, emulates the screwstringer. It does in that there is no "flexing" or "flagpoling" involved (unless you consciously introduce it), but there is definitely the factor of pin twist when using the C or T hammer (the top of the pin twisting ahead of the bottom, resulting in the string being pulled ahead of the rotation of the pin in the block.)

    This is not just a minor quibble, it is an important factor to consider if using the C hammer (or a T if anyone does, and I gather there are at least a one or two out there, one writing on this list). In fact, pin twist is one of the two major factors in what I have been trying to explain (the other being string friction). So it needs to be addressed one way or another when using the C hammer.

    Flagpoling is taken out of the equation by the C hammer, but when you tune with a normal hammer placed in line with the strings ("12 o'clock" or as close as you can get) you have taken flagpoling out of the equation as well (the flagpoling that you can't control is happening at right angles to the hammer, hence at right angles to the tuning pin, hence not a factor in changing the pitch of the string). For purposes of what I have been describing, the techniques would apply just the same to a C hammer as to a standard hammer.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 92.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-15-2014 02:23
    Thanks, particularly to Fred and David for the disucssion regarding counteracting bend/twist forces and hammer technique. I haven't tried David's exercise yet, but I'm going to give it a try.

    I have been laboring (like many, I assume) under the idea that compensating for "residual twist" is high on the list of necessary things to worry about on every pin. Perhaps it has overly influenced my technique. Will re-evaluate.

    Fred, I'm one who has been using a Levitan C hammer for about a month now. I agree for the most part with your modified description of its effects on pin dynamics, with a couple of my own observations. With your correction regarding the screwstringer, it was not clear to me whether you thought it would require more attention to twisting forces than a traditional hammer, but I assume you will agree the concerns are the same.

    With the C hammer, a "parallel to the strings" position is not required in order to isolate the twisting effect. Its non-flagpoling behavior is available across it's range of positions from approximately 4 to 8 o'clock. The tuning position where my elbows are down, and the levers formed by my arms are short have made for better control, in my short experience with it.

    As you say, this is not just a minor quibble. I think you'll agree that many positions between 10 and 2 o'clock are just as frequently required as the 12 o'clock ideal, and on a grand I find these positions unsustainable, ergonomically. I've often tried, but typically just fall back to tuning between 2 and 4 o'clock, and compensate for flagpoling the best I can, with the accompanying variations in pitch, as has also been discussed. Without the C hammer, I don't think it would be realistic for me to attempt the techniques that have been described in this discussion on a grand, though with it, I think I'll be able to.

    I'm a Cyberhammer devotee for uprights, an entirely different discussion, but something I've chosen for the same reason as the C-hammer. Their ergonomics are a big deal for me.

    Jim




  • 93.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-16-2014 19:34
    Jim,
    I have found I can use a 12 o'clock position comfortably, though it took me a while to figure out how to adapt. I sit with my body nearly at right angle to the piano, facing the bass. I turn the bench so that it mimics my seating stance (this makes a big difference). And then I simply reach over and hold the end (round knob) of the hammer, and try to use my body weight as much as I can, leaning slightly one direction or the other as needed. Sometimes I stand up for a while. I do get as far as 2 o'clock sometimes, but often it is problematic so I revert to 12. But depending on exactly what the relationship is between pin torque and string friction, other alignments can work, at least for certain sections. I might only shift to 12 o'clock for the final steps, if that seems to be needed.

    I might add that the extra hammer length (13" as opposed to 11"), while it means that the arm is extended farther, actually makes it easier because of leverage, compensating for the less direct arm angle. If the pins are VERY tight, I stand mostly, and lengthen the hammer.

    I have now done a grand video (actually a series of four), and have uploaded to YouTube here. In this case the piano is a Steinway B, 50 years old with its original strings, so it is a bit of a challenge in terms of stability and fine tuning, an above moderate degree of string friction. In the first two clips, low tenor and over the treble break, I did some hard test blows on a few notes to show that they are, indeed, quite stable when I am done. You can see my arm and the hammer, and the angle is better (than with the upright) for seeing what I am doing in terms of up/down and the muscular movements of my arm (which are transferred to the hammer, but you may not see the hammer move). 

    I chose to show tuning over the break because it is quite a hard area to tune, particularly on this piano. I thought I'd show my own approach, which is somewhat slow and patient, rather finicky, insisting on approaching pitch from below. This is not a 45 minute piano, though I can usually do it in 1:15 if the pitch change is relatively small, as this one was (all within 10¢).

    The RCT is set to Concert mode, so the whole display shows from 10¢ flat to 10¢ sharp of the target pitch - if you are outside that range, you can't see the rotating disc. The resolution is quite sensitive, so there is obvious change in rotation/blush in the range of 0.3¢, and it is still apparent in even closer parameters. 

    The final video is cleaning up unisons, then listening to the piano. The whole process was simply a normal tuning, with the exception of throwing in the hard blows as a demo.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 94.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2014 00:36
    I'm happy to report that this technique seems to work well with the Levitan C hammer.

    This past week I was fortunate to have a variety of grands to work on, a newish Kawai GE-1, an old Howard, a mint Yamaha C2, a middle aged Kimball 6', and a 1918 Steinway M. I spent extra time working on this technique, and the pianos responded with varying results to the simultaneous bend and turn approach. At the start it was an odd feeling, to be pulling pitch just up to the desired point, releasing pressure, and seeing it just stay there, and continue to stay in response to test blows and "forearm bashing." On each piano it took some work to figure out how much bending pressure to apply.

    On the older Howard and Steinway, I was not immediately successful, and had to compensate for having applied too much bending force. Lightly rattling the C hammer "up and down" after release would often cause pitch to go sharp, showing that these pianos had rendering problems and I was accumulating a lot of tension in the non-speaking length. Applying Protek appropriately helped, but it still took resorting to various bump, rattle, and roll techniques to figure out what worked there.

    But when it worked, the result was that the drop in pitch I applied shortly before "final approach" was typically around 5 cents or less, less than my usual 5-10c with my old/current hammer technique. As I get better, I'm hoping to spend less time repeating the drop step. I'm not very fast at it yet, tuning was typically about a half-hour slower than usual, which this week was ok because my schedule didn't apply to much time pressure. But I can see the potential. On the Kawai, which required a 4-6c pitch raise from the start, I was often able to "hit" each string just once, raising it directly to pitch, then going on. Kind of fun, compared to what I've been doing. I think this technique is a keeper for me.

    None of the advantages of the C hammer seem to be negated by this technique, indeed, it may have been easier to learn because of it, since the design helps distinguish when I'm applying turning vs. bending force.
    Jim




  • 95.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2014 22:45
    Jim:

    Glad to hear it was successful.  Just remember that the amount of "bending" force is proportional to how tight the pins are.  The looser the pins are the less  flexing of the pin is required.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 96.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-23-2014 17:45
    Jim,
    Glad the technique seems promising to you. A couple comments: It is important to pay close attention to the sync between feeling the pin move in the block and the amount of pitch change there is. If you feel the pin move a couple tics, enough in your experience to change pitch 1¢, say, and pitch hasn't changed at all, you need to change what you are doing.

    My approach is very fluid, The norm is to flex the pin "down" (in the direction that will make pitch go flat) while pulling up (turning the pin in the sharp direction), but that is negotiable and variable. First there is "how much down" as a starting point. If I notice that pitch is not following the turn of the pin closely at first, my first response is to spring the pin a bit, flexing and twisting (but not turning) to see if the pitch can be coaxed up and how easily. If I can manage to get pitch to where I think it should have been by this means, I will continue but with less down flex. 

    If the springing doesn't move pitch readily, I will change tack and try turning the pin first with no down flex (neutral), then, if necessary with up flex. I want pitch to follow the movement of the pin almost at all times, slightly but not significantly behind. I especially don't want to get far behind when there is a lot of friction in the string, because it will be difficult to tell when I have reached a stable point, and it will be more difficult to "spring" the string to precisely the target without overshooting. When I am just barely below target pitch, I generally try to nudge the pin without changing pitch, then spring to pin in a controlled way to move the string that last bit - often several tries to get it to happen.

    There is a continuum of string friction versus pin twist. When string friction is low and pin torque (hence pin twist) is high, you would want to flex down the maximum, so flex will counteract twist on a one to one basis (friction not entering in, or very little). When string friction is high and pin torque is low, you need to flex up the maximum: in this case there is minimal pin twist to help pull the string over bearing poins, and maximum drag on the string, so you are needing to overcome those two factors. And then there is everything in between. It's a matter of experimenting with each piano and each string and pin to come up with the right approach - sounds more complicated than it is.

    I have emphasized a preference for any instability I leave in the system tending in the up direction, but that is somewhat more conceptual than practical: if true, it should be very small. I emphasize that concept because I have found through my own bitter experience that it is very easy to do what seems like very precise, refined tuning in the downward direction, when, in fact, the precise result you achieved is very unstable. As I have analyzed various problem notes and experiences where strings have shot 10¢ or more south (when I thought I had nailed that tuning), I have come to the conclusion that it happened most often when I had shot slightly past in the sharp direction, then settled back gradually, but wasn't paying enough attention to what I was feeling in the pin. The pin would move as much as 10¢ worth before the string would start to ease slightly and gradually down to target. I'd get to a refined target, I could pound and nothing would move, but next day that string would be 10¢ or more flat. Other times it happens when pitch was significantly sharp, and the strings seemed to be rending well, so I was lazy and didn't make certain to go below pitch, for sure below pitch, and pull back up. It can happen when string friction isn't all that bad, on a five-year-old grand, for instance.

    So I am paranoid (with good reason), and ALWAYS tune in the up direction, and ALWAYS err on the side of the string wanting to go sharp - but as little as possible. It's a discipline that has served me well over the past few years. It took self-discipline to learn the techniques - it is not immediately intuitive, but it does become habitual with time.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 97.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-13-2014 11:46
    Fred,

    Regarding the pumping/ratcheting movement (Jerk), at my place on the learning curve I had gotten this motion, only bringing the pitch up to target, to the point where stability was looking nice, and time was decreasing. However, six months ago, after a two month string of unbelievably tight blocks, I realized I was not on a sustainable ergonomic path. I hadn't hurt myself yet, but could see it coming. At that point I switched to the C lever. This meant bagging the pump/jerk and starting over.    

    However I didn't consider how much the short-ish Goss lever I was using was not helping in terms of lever arm length. I see you jerking gently, on a Baldwin no less. That extended lever arm seems to be getting you there gently. Safely...?
    .
    The visual demonstration in just this one aspect alone,  illustrates why the videos are so useful. Even though the point I'm calling out here, lever length, was not even the point of the visual demonstration...there is a huge amount of information to be gotten from vidoes of highly accomplished folks...some of it unintended collateral improvement (wow...collateral improvement, that's a new one).

    Regarding David's poorly rendering Harrison, after thinking about this discussion, I read...uhhh...my own post last night regarding what I called the 3rd force. That is the temporary tension that front segment by default needs to see in order to raise pitch. I went out the shop for a 1-1/2 hr session with a dead small grand awaiting disembowelment and resurrection.  The plan, to keep my hand off the lever until I had assessed how much tension was going to be in that front segment as I brought the speaking length just up to pitch, and how to account for that excess tension.

    The doped pins were sufficiently snug to induce some twist to the pin, though not scads.

    In order for the tenor to be brought up to pitch, the following conditions said the front segment would have to have considerably higher tension than the speaking length to come up to pitch, before I let go of the lever.:

    serious termination angle at the aggrafes- high friction-
    counter-bearing 3/4" felt bearing with an aggressive counter-bearing angle- high friction
    old piano string corrosion- high friction
    filthy felt- high friction

    Taking that info:

    -Pin twist pulling up will add temporary tension to the front segment, and release that temporary tension when the lever is released.  Helpful but not enough to compensate for the amount of tension that would be in the front segment.
    -The 3 high friction bearing issues will all add temporary tension to the front segment which will somehow need to be released after releasing the lever

    I didn't think the pin untwisting would be sufficient to lower all the high rendering tension in that front segment, so I needed to put the lever at 3 or 4o'clock and pull up significantly, as I rotated clock-wise. This action is opposite to what one would use in an easily rendering scenario.

    It worked well  Interestingly, I also attempted to achieve similar results with all the other hunt and pec techniques I have been struggling with on this same challenged piano. Since the reading of that segment was so difficult, with all its high friction attributes, the only stable technique was the one outlined above. This because the intellectual reading of the tensions, bypassed the lack of experiential information being given by this front segment, and gave a decent sense of "how much" which otherwise was missing.

    I'm starting to get this drill!  While the thinking above implies a heady experience, the whole picture Gestahlt is starting to be easier to grasp.

    Jim Ialeggio

      







     
    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------








  • 98.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-10-2014 22:08
    Thanks John!

    As someone looking to learn something about my own inefficiency on this task (I'm of the glacial persuasion), I noticed something on the final unison check pass that I do, though I do it to a much greater degree than you do...that is, you slowed down to way down.

    I noticed as you started the final unison pass, a decrease in the strike speed, presumably to listen to a longer sample of the sound, then as you hit a couple of recalcitrant beauty queens you slowed further in the strike time as will as the listen time...sometimes to poor effect...poor effect meaning that some of the beauty queens remained somewhat recalcitrant in spite of the extra time and effort expended on them.

    For me, being able to read when a unison is not going to "get there" means I need to accept something that I, as a musician, find very hard and disappointing to accept. I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to work my will, unsuccessfully, into a unison that simply is being impeded by some physical nasty-ness in the system. Cleaning that unison would take physical manipulation of mating, hammer surface, whatever to get past that recalcitrance, not further lever work. 

    In addition to the lever technique and playing hand technique, this actually non-technical impediment, is something I need to come to grips with myself, although, as I say, to a much greater degree than you do.

    Thanks again for you demo and for "baring your butt".

    Jim

     



    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------



















  • 99.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-11-2014 09:55
    Jim,

    "Baring my butt" made me LOL. Thanks for that!

    Yeah, usually I have a decent idea when the unison is an out of phase string, but it's quicker to try tuning it again rather than to mate the hammer to the string. And you do have to learn when to give up and move on. Frustrating for all of us, I'm sure.

    One temporary quick thing you can do is to find the string that's out of phase with the others. Get your Hart voicing tool (or similar) and run the needle just under the topmost layer of felt. This fluffs up the string enough to bring it back into phase. It's temporary, of course, but fairly quick and will make the piano sound a lot better...at least in the short term.

    -------------------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    Blue Mountain MS


    -------------------------------------------








  • 100.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-12-2014 09:32
    John inspired me to go ahead and video a tuning, so I schlepped the camera into the university yesterday. I did a nice video of a practice grand tuning, but, alas, no audio due to the auxiliary mike's battery being dead (bang head against wall for stupidity). Having no other grand that needed tuning and was available, I just did the next piano on my list, a 50 year old practice Hamilton. Actually not a bad choice, as it is bottom of my barrel, but maybe middle of the road for most private clientele. This is as sloppy a tuning as I do - unless under extreme time constraints.

    I did five videos: low tenor, high tenor section, low octave 6, high octave 7, and a final pass to clean unisons and listen to the whole piano. The piano was 10 - 15¢ flat, and I did my typical one pass, using offsets I entered myself (about 1/4 overshoot) rather than the pitch raise function (which usually leaves me beyond target). I used "standard fine tune" when the pitch was beyond 10¢ below pitch, switched to "concert" mode when within 10¢. Concert mode only shows 10¢ each side of the target pitch, and has a very sensitive display, so you can easily see changes of less than 0.3¢, instantly.

    What you don't see is what I am feeling, which is the tuning pin moving in the block. That is an essential element, in order to know where you are. I am mostly pulling the hammer toward myself a bit while turning it (flexing the pin toward the speaking length), and also have the hammer mostly at 12 o'clock so the flagpoling is at right angles to the speaking length (essentially out of the picture, not affecting pitch). When I believe I am there, I do a very small wiggle up and down (you might not be able to see it) and want to see pitch rise and fall just above and below target the same amount. I won't hear that change, I will simply see the display begin to move slightly in each direction (the pitch change due to the flexing I am doing might be as little as 0.1¢). This is enough to ensure that things are in a stable state - together with playing the note and watching the display over some time with no hammer action.

    I put the videos on my YouTube fredpianotech channel in a play list.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 101.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-12-2014 17:06
    Fred,

    Thanks for doing this! Helpful to see what's going on. I didn't watch all the videos, but enough to see your method.

    All I can say is that I wish I could be there and give those strings a good test blow to verify stability. That's my first pause. However, I will say I've done similar things with RCT, so I know stability is indeed possible that way. But I always do a firm test blow to confirm. 

    The second pause is that it's a larger pitch raise than I like to do in a single pass. For the most part, RCT does a good job of pitch corrections. But I find there are always sections that needed a slightly different overpull. YHMV (Your Humidity May Vary). ;-)

    -------------------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    Blue Mountain MS


    -------------------------------------------








  • 102.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-12-2014 20:23
    John,
    I kinda thought there would be doubters about the stability. I remembered to do some brutal test blows as demo when I did my original video on the grand (that turned out to be without audio), but when I did the upright, I forgot about that and just tuned as I would normally do, and only did some fairly minor forte blows. The thing that I know while I am tuning, and you don't know while watching, is what the pins felt like, as well as the checks I do as I approach target pitch, minor flexing of the pin in both directions with the hammer (jiggles) while playing the note to see just where I have got to, watching the tiniest changes of the display. Then I know how far the pin still needs to move, I feel the pin move what I think is that far, I check again with the wiggle and playing the note, watching for any pitch drift in the display. If there is any drift, I react instantly and nudge the pin a bit, etc. It is very much an interactive process, and I know from long experience that I am aware of exactly where I am at almost all times (once in a while I overshoot, my focus lapses, some pinblocks are nasty, etc. - I'm not claiming perfection). 

    I have done the test blow thing many, many times to check myself, and, with very rare exceptions, the pitch and the unison stays right on, not a bit of movement. But I will be sure to do that on video when I do a grand, maybe in the next few days (depending what the room access allows). 

    When you talk about the flexing thing and knowing how to compensate, you are describing how I tuned for years. You know how far the pin needs to move, you have a memory of how that feels, you turn the pin what you think is that much, ignoring how far the pitch changed, then you settle the pin and string back. If you guessed right, cool! If not, do it again. It is when you get into that last little nudge for really refined unisons that this becomes pretty problematic. Say twisting the pin moves pitch 10¢, but you only need to nudge pitch 0.3 - 0.5¢. How many times are you going to have to experiment before you are sure you have moved the pin that tiny amount AND the string is stable? Or do you just say, "That's as good as it can be tuned, I've spent enough time"?

    Eric Schandall likes to show a technique, especially for this type of tiny pitch change, where you flex the pin in the flat direction (pitch goes a bit flat, audibly) and turn it until you feel it move the slightest amount, with no audible change in pitch, then you flex the pin to pull the string over the bearing. It is that kind of technique that led me down the path that turns out to be one David Love has also pursued. 

    One thing I have observed over the years, with respect to stability, is that it is most likely to be a problem when the pin just doesn't want to move that last little bit in the upward direction. It always wants to shoot past. It may move in lovely small increments right up to that last 0.3¢ and then it only wants to move a minimum of 1 - 3¢. So having shot past, you approach it from above, and it seems that you nail it (though if you are really observant, you might notice that the pin has turned farther than it really should have had to - but, hey, you got the unison beautifully clean so who's complaining?). However, the reality is that that particular string is very likely to be the one that causes embarrassment, drops 5 - 10¢ either during performance or over the first week in the home or other location, because stabilizing a string from above is an iffy proposition. If the pin doesn't want to go to that spot from below, it won't really want to from above either, so you will probably shoot past with the pin and very possibly not with the string. It will be very possible that there is enough friction that you leave an unstable situation - and a brutal test blow will very often not reveal this problem. It will only show up gradually over time, being played many times.

    I have experienced this kind of thing many, many times on the same strings of the same pianos. I have analyzed up and down and around. My customers don't care that it is a problem pin/block/string, they want it in tune, no excuses, and to stay in tune. I'm supposed to be the expert. What to do? I discipline myself to approach from below always, to make that last bit of nudge with persistence and patience, to bring the string along from below as well, not allowing it to go past target. If the string was sharp, I go flat a bit (pin and string) and then pull pitch up to target, never approach the target entirely from above unless I can give a very minor flex of the pin and move the string just flat, then settle it at target. I find that if I make it an absolute rule (with the exception just given - but being very sure that this is the case) that pitch is always approached from below, I can count on stability, otherwise not. If there is minimal string bearing friction, and you can flex pitch freely in both directions without moving the pin the in block, this is far less of an issue. But most pianos have some frictional issues, and they tend not to be entirely consistent. 

    In any case, I certainly make no claims that my tuning method is the only best one that everyone should use. I simply put it out there, sharing where I have got to after over thirty years of experimenting with just about anything that seemed like it might work. I am happy with what I do now, as I never was until I came up with this method. So I describe it in detail in case it might help others.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 103.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-13-2014 00:56
    This is a very good description of the issues as I see them and the method I use (Schandall's description is also a good one).  The 3rd paragraph (making small changes) is especially germane as are the arguments for tuning from below.  

    Interestingly, this method that Fred has described runs quite counter to the prevailing and traditional methods of tuning, including those that are often taught, which is to pull the pitch up above the target and then settle it back down using back pressure on the tuning handle.  This method requires just the opposite action, push the handle down, turn the pin and then pull the pin back to its upright position and raise the pitch along with it.  Interestingly, it is the traditional approach that has led to the idea of tuning uprights left handed which for me is backwards.  In fact, if you use the theory that Fred is describing and which I also advocate, it would make more sense to tune uprights right handed (1:30 ish position) and grands left handed (10:30 ish position).  From these two positions the desired vector on the pin happens more naturally with a simple on-plane movement of the handle. 

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 104.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-13-2014 08:37
    Fred <One thing I have observed over the years, with respect to stability, is that it is most likely to be a problem when the pin just doesn't want to move that last little bit in the upward direction. It always wants to shoot past. It may move in lovely small increments right up to that last 0.3¢ and then it only wants to move a minimum of 1 - 3¢. So having shot past, you approach it from above, and it seems that you nail it (though if you are really observant, you might notice that the pin has turned farther than it really should have had to - but, hey, you got the unison beautifully clean so who's complaining?). However, the reality is that that particular string is very likely to be the one that causes embarrassment, drops 5 - 10¢ either during performance or over the first week in the home or other location, because stabilizing a string from above is an iffy proposition. If the pin doesn't want to go to that spot from below, it won't really want to from above either, so you will probably shoot past with the pin and very possibly not with the string. It will be very possible that there is enough friction that you leave an unstable situation - and a brutal test blow will very often not reveal this problem. It will only show up gradually over time, being played many times.

    Wow...finally!  This, although not being the usual "Party Line", matches my experience to a "t"...every word of it!

    I don't get the test blow thing. Drifting, unless the rendering is very compliant (which it almost never is), despite hard blows, mostly comes with time. When I'm in the shop, playing with techniques, I will use forte quickly repeated strikes with 2 hands similar to how one might test repetition, with the sustain pedal engaged. That works better than a test blow of any force, but still, in a tough rendering piano, it's time that really shows how much tension tension is in that front segment.   

    Jim Ialeggio

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------









  • 105.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2014 16:58
    I'm not sure if I really want to jump into this, but I will anyway <G>, with the idea that maybe I can contribute a wee bit. With respect to the video link Ed Sutton posted (made clickable here), and that some have commented on, I certainly agree it is too "fast and sloppy" for my taste - not sloppy per se, but I have no idea how clean or stable those unisons are, and neither does the tuner as far as I can see. But that was a VERY fast tuning, 3:20 for 48 strings, or an average of 4 seconds a string. That would work out to something like a 15 minute complete tuning, if you spent that much time on each string of a whole piano. So if your style calls for a quick setting of pitch, followed by refinement, especially of the unisons, then the technique is probably fine for the first pass.

    The question of doubts as to quality, with respect to what David Love has described: I tune essentially the same as David, going by his description, and also agree essentially with everything he has written in this thread. Well thought out, well presented, solid stuff. I thought briefly of doing a short video, but then I realized that the convenient way to do that would be to use the same devise I use to tune to take the video - that doesn't work too well. I'd have to bring in something else with decent enough sound quality to be worthwhile (my video cam with a decent mike), and jump through a few hoops to create a format of video to share. Sorry, too much work. I will, however, assert for what it's worth that David's claims are entirely in line with my experience. I also, like David, tune for several concert venues and finicky customers, have for years (including 27 years and counting in a music department). I'm not much of one for blowing my own horn, but I think I have a pretty solid reputation based on the quality I have delivered over the past 30 odd years. And I often tune a concert level tuning, where all strings have to be moved, within 45 minutes. And it is concert quality. And it holds. I know because I follow myself, next day, next week, a couple weeks later, etc. There is no guess work here, I know for a fact that my tunings are solid (with the caveat that there are always a few exceptions I can't really explain - I don't claim perfection, just a high level). And my unisons are crystal clear - some of them may become a little "fuzzy" after a day of concerto competition, but nothing that stands out.

    How can I tune that efficiently at that level? Precisely for the reasons David has been trying to get through: I already have the tuning set up in the ETD memory. All I am doing is tuning unisons. Hence, every bit of my effort goes to getting each and every single string to a set target, within very fine parameters, and making sure it will stay there. Yes, I listen and check intervals (6/4 chords in the mid range, octaves in the higher areas), and once in a while I catch something (usually a drifting string, or perhaps I carelessly brushed the screen and set the device octave up or down by accident), but it is just confirmation, not making decisions based on listening to a number of test intervals. I know from long, long experience that I CAN listen to all those intervals, and I will find that they are all where I decided I wanted them (when I made my own modifications to the tuning calculated by RCT, almost entirely consisting of raising the pitch of the top two octave by a small amount increasing to a somewhat larger amount: IOW I want a bit more stretch up there in keeping with my own taste).

    Conversations about aural vs ETD remind me of having the same kind of conversation between woodworkers who use power tools versus those who don't. Yes, you can get very good results using only hand tools (planes, chisels, handsaws), but a router, for instance, once you know how to use it, will both speed up a number of tasks AND make it possible to achieve high levels of precision. As will using a straightedge as opposed to eyeballing a straight line, which is probably a better analogy. It still takes skill and knowledge to do the work, but the "advanced tool" makes for a potential of higher quality and more efficiency. That's all we're talking about here, using a tool to assist us in getting a job done, and done well. For some, it seems like we are talking about the fundamental principles of life, bedrock deeply held quasi-religious beliefs. Hey, live and let live. If that's what you believe, and it makes you happy, do it. Same thing if it is more pleasant to do without the machine.

    I guess I will also add that many who write based on some small amount of experience using an ETD are really far too inexperienced to have the right to a solid opinion. It takes work to learn to use an ETD, any of them. Adjusting to a visual display, making muscle moves in response to visual cues, learning to interpret when the display is "jumpy," learning how to use the devise to generate a tuning that meets your own standards and tastes, etc., are a matter of a fair investment of time. Some people are pretty fast picking it up, others are very slow. Until you have learned the skills involved, you really can't judge how efficient the ETD might make you, nor can you judge the quality of results possible. It is very possible to tune very badly, and painfully slowly, using an ETD. Tuning continues to be a high level skill whether you use one or not. ETDs do not tune pianos. People do. The results depend more on the people and their skills.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 106.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-11-2014 14:07
    Many thanks for all serious and not so serious consideration. As for Philosophical and Business questions, all our chapters are autonomous and reflect the character of different people. Certainly location affects convictions. Immanuel Kant has a greater impact on some chapters than others, and the educational institutions surrounding these. As a non-native of Cincinnati it is easier to appreciate some of those philosophical concerns. "Former Bank of England governor Lord King," reports recently The Telegraph, "revealed that Niccolo Machiavelli's The Prince... is his favourite book." It is interesting that an expert in making money has revealed his appreciation for a man who claimed also in The Discourses on Livy that "fraud is detestable, but in a time of war, it is praiseworthy and glorious." Whatever a school in San Francisco, Wichita, Albuquerque, or Kansas City might promote philosophically is certainly not obligated to be followed by any other institution. My alma mater was Kantian to the extent that existentialism was criticized more than rationalism, with Machiavelli not far behind, and though I never attended, it is clearly the other way around at University of Cincinnati, the largest employer in Cincinnati. Depending on such philosophical preferences, in the war of the rat race, to make more money, some will lie more than others. It depends on how malicious, pugnacious, competitive, Narcissistic, or desparate an individual might be inter alia. Subsistence needs cause people to compromise their values as well. The reason people lie and cheat to get ahead may be based on a number of factors, and their willingness to might have something to do with the chapter in the PTG. Sin is frequently collective, and happens in the context of a local community, and our conclusions, in a cyber community like this, need to be understood at the same time within a local, not a cyber context. The chapter has a past, present, and future that will always be influenced by learning institutions. The desire to win diminishes considerably when people lie and cheat. Most as children experienced this when playing games. The response to cheating can be to stop trying or quit altogether. But is the categorical imperative reasonable when people need to provide for a family and other sort of moral imperatives? Most are confronted with this question sometime in life. As an outsider who migrated here there is an image Cincinnati projects to the rest of the world that is not the case; it is not the honest hard working socially conservative town some imagine it to be. With a top ten low cost of living image, you would think people would play fair and work hard. No, they do not. Malingering is popular here, on and off the job; while particular exceptions exist, you can Grounding for the Metaphysics of Morals-thump all you wish, people are not encouraged to cultivate their talents in Cincinnati so much as rip off, abuse, and otherwise torture landlords by lying much as possible and be defended by the city for doing it, find every food pantry, soup kitchen, sandwich counter, in the city they can, play sick, collect SSI-SSDI, apply for food stamps, etc. City council announced in spite of joblessness that another million is going to the police, in Cincinnati, some of the biggest frauds in town I've come across, not create real jobs where you produce something. Parasites and predators predominate, the state pays parasites to build more hospitals for the overpaid. But it doesn't, as Kant did, declare it the categorical imperative for a community to help cultivate the talents of people. Is it the same where you live? You would think a higher cost of living would create such an environment, but in my experience, it does not. Again, I am convinced that aural tuning encourages people to cultivate their talents in piano technology, more so, than ETDs, for the reasons I explained. I shall again contend one of those ignored explanations in the form of a question. How does measuring the inharmonicity of a string electronically reconcile tons of tension variance-not hyperbole-between different pianos, even better, the description, snowflakes? Make some time to check by playing when you are done. Visual or aural, it is always faster to tune a piano, once, not twice. As for the contention that life is fair, and that all success and failure is just. Sorry to omit the source, but "There is a vanity which is done on the earth. There are just men to whom it happens according to the work of the wicked and there are wicked men to whom it happens according to the work of the righteous." How does the preacher respond? "Praising mirth." What is mirth? As a famous German beer drinking song concludes, Dann ist das Leben ein Scherz! Realizing that life is a joke. We should be a community cultivating one another's talents, not attempting to destroy their ability to do so. Until then, I leave being the crank, and killjoy, to others. Nobody wants less mirth, and more justice than.... ------------------------------------------- Benjamin Sloane Cincinnati OH 513-257-8480 -------------------------------------------


  • 107.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2014 14:33


    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------

    "In the ignorance that implies impression that knits knowledge that finds the nameform
    that whets the wits that convey contacts that sweeten sensation that drives desire that adheres
    to the attachment that dogs death that bitches birth that entails the ensuance of existentiality."

    (James Joyce,
    Finnegans Wake,

    I think I am choking on the Categorical Imperative

    Will Truitt







  • 108.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-11-2014 18:13
    I should probably add with reluctance to those who can that before you reject Machiavelli you must consider the experience of Rahab, who for the most part is described by the observation... ------------------------------------------- Benjamin Sloane Cincinnati OH 513-257-8480 -------------------------------------------


  • 109.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2014 19:26


    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------
    Monty Python holds considerable sway in our chapter, probably because we do not practice Mirth Control. 







  • 110.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2014 23:00
    << Is it the same where you live?>>

    Thank heavens, it is not!

    Mirth -- very good answer.

    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    --------------------------------------------
    We should be a community cultivating one another's talents, not attempting to destroy their ability to do so. Until then, I leave being the crank, and killjoy, to others.
    Nobody wants less mirth, and more justice than....
    -------------------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    -------------------------------------------












  • 111.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-09-2014 13:18
    John's request and mine earlier( to Ron) were completely reasonable requests for an other-than-verbal "description" of different ways of effectively proceeding, I repeat them...if not to the original recipients, then to those who might respond in a different fashion. 

    From a learning perspective, and I mean learning as a "life-time learning" pursuit, not just from a newbie perspective, the neuroscience is so clear and powerful on the point that when learning/honing skills, data inputs which come from multiple vectors are powerful and extremely effective ways of communicating and learning/honing a skill.  This particularly  regarding something that has such a huge complex proprioceptive component to it like lever and playing hand technique.

    Some get it just from words...many more get it from sounds/visual info/mirroring and words...different folks...

    Can we somehow get off the defensive tack, and just post some visuals in all their inherent imperfection?

    Jim Ialeggio


    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------



















  • 112.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-09-2014 13:45
    Jim,

    I trust in your post of importance was the simple point of "making a video" can serve a purpose that words can't.

    If so, by all means, please do so.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv



  • 113.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-09-2014 13:24
    The video link I posted shows Alan Zajicek, protege of Virgil Smith, tuning in a PTG class.
    My purpose in posting was to show a good tuner at work.
    I find I learn a lot more from a minute or two of watching than from reading thousands of words. Contradictions and arguments only add to my confusion.
    I suggest that anyone wanting to learn to tune better needs to watch good tuners at work.

    Disclaimer: I am not one of the great tuners of the universe. I have average skills and use them to do mostly home tunings which, weather permitting, are usually pretty stable six months later. I gladly leave arguments and perfection to those more talented than me.

    -------------------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926

    -------------------------------------------








  • 114.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-08-2014 11:01
    I don't consider sprint versus marathon an apt analogy.   Nor does being more efficient mean poorer quality, in fact, it often means higher quality. Further, there is nothing wrong with making money.  I'm not sure how you went from learning to be more efficient to "overbooking yourself to make more money", but no one has ever suggested that.  However, given the choice of making more money or less money with the same effort and quality outcome, I choose to make more money.  Were I a hobbyist it might be different, but I'm not, and most of us aren't.  

    Try the formula this way.  You hire an employee and you pay them $20 per hour.  They routinely take 2 hours on a job that could be done in 1 hour by working in a more efficient manner, not moving faster, just doing it in a way that is more efficient, eliminating unwanted steps, mastering their technique.  They tell you that they prefer to take twice as long because it gives them more personal satisfaction, that's how they've always done it, and when they look back on their life at 95 they will feel better about how they spent their time. Well, actually they're spending your time aren't they?  It looks different from that side doesn't it.  In that extra time they could have learned an entire new set of skills, discovered something else which gave them even greater satisfaction, increased their value to you, the employer, for which, if you are fair, you may well (and should) increase their compensation.  They would have more money in their pocket, perhaps more time, you too would have more in your pocket and yet more time to, perhaps, increase your own skill set, take on projects that you weren't able to previously, write the great American novel or finish that symphony you started some years ago but never had time for.  

    If I can tune 4 pianos in four hours rather than two without feeling hurried or stressed and without sacrificing quality, put twice as much money in my pocket, get home sooner and still have time for a cup of tea and conversation with my customer, why would I not?  I think that was at the heart of the initial inquiry.  To even vaguely suggest that someone who wishes to achieve that is willing to must necessarily be compromising quality, is somehow violating some ethical code of conduct and should even consider resigning their membership is, I can only assume, a hyperbolic statement driven by the thrill of that final sprint toward the light at the end of the paragraph.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 115.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-08-2014 13:36
    Hi, David

    You obviously feel nettled by some of what I wrote -- that wasn't the intention.

    If your system works for you, and rewards you, then it is right for you.

    We all have different strengths and weaknesses. I couldn't do it your way, and wouldn't want to. When I cultivate enjoyment of the process itself, and take plenty of time doing it, I am probably making a virtue of necessity.

    As to your thoughts about taking longer somehow robbing the "employer", I don't buy it. We don't work for an hourly wage, at least when we do private tuning. We set our fees for the whole job, however long or short a time it takes. For private tuning, we have customers, not employers. Being self-employed, we can decide for ourselves how much speed is appropriate. As I get older and continue to fight fibromyalgia, slower is better. I believe an enjoyable pace and a low work load will allow me to keep tuning longer, and in the end I'll have done more and better and more interesting work than if I were to set the appointments close together and stuff more of them into a day.

    I don't think it's unprofessional to pace myself. Consistently producing high quality results for an appropriate price at a pace I can sustain is being professional. And we're all growing older. It remains to see if we can learn to do it gracefully.

    YMMV -- your mileage may vary, as they say.

    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon



  • 116.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-09-2014 03:42

    What a lot of words on 'Going Faster'!

    In the end no two techniques of tuning are the same. No two pianos are the same. No two ETDs are the same. The humidity (or lack of it) can totally alter the characteristics of a piano and ones' approach to tuning it in just one week. So many variables!

    Which is, of course, why we do it! Why we love doing it! And this 'love' is nothing but 'CHALLENGE'.

    The challenge of 'going faster' - getting there sooner - getting to the next 'challenge'....

    As I said 'What a lot of words'!

    And they mean nothing! Zilch! For who can put into words the experiences of a life-time tuning pianos as to 'How to go Faster'?

    At the end of the day (another little word-spinner which means nowt) one does the work to the best of one's ability and if your popularity wanes, questions are asked about your 'tuning', you don't get asked again, someone else takes on that assignment.....

    Still more words.

    But MONEY talks - so you try not to get into that scenario of 'being replaced' by someone deemed better.

    NO! You take your time. You tune as much to your own satisfaction as your Clients' and pocket the cash smiling.

    What is speed anyway? 'Faster than Horowicz'? Well, he could certainly 'play' faster than me but I doubt he could tune a piano - or, even if he could, I doubt he could tune it faster.

    End of philosophical verbiage.

    Tara!   Michael (UK)

    -------------------------------------------
    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
    -------------------------------------------








  • 117.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-08-2014 13:33

    Not sure what "head start" you may be referring to for the ETD.  Machines slow me down.  
    I tune by ear and do a pitch raise in 7-12 minutes and a "typical" tuning appointment in 50 minutes.  
    The idea that tuning by ear is "slow" is a myth. 
    -------------------------------------------
    Keith Akins
    Akins Pianocraft
    Menominee MI
    906-863-7387
    -------------------------------------------








  • 118.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-08-2014 14:39
    All,

    I am beginning to question the bravado statements made as to the time it takes by some to perform pitch changes/corrections plus a final tuning for a given appointment.

    I am not questioning that someone can be in and out the door in a hour or less, but I truly question the end results, whether aural or ETD, or a combination thereof.

    There is simply no way one can guarantee a stable tuning in the time frame that some are professing to do in a two pass process.
    The only way such a thing can be truly accomplished is if the piano is already at the desired pitch location, thereby not requiring an actual pitch change/correction to take place, that being, from flat or sharp, to the desired pitch location.

    Please remember, this thread was not about one upmanship, it was about Gary Howell asking for "tips and tricks' how to potentially reduce his tuning time process down from 2 & 12 hours to less.

    Quote: "It takes me two and half hours to tune a piano.  I'm certain others probably don't take that long and I'm assuming there must be some little tips and tricks for going faster.  Do you have any?"

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv
    -------------------------------------------


  • 119.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-08-2014 14:57
    Keith, I really don't go in and out in an hour, unless there is a class coming in.  Then, the students come floating in 15 minutes before class, hence a 45 minute tuning. It can be done after years of experience.  I can calm down the most anxious of profs with much success.

    I don't stand by any of those tunings! It's just a helper out for the next class.  I aurally tune in a correct situation in 1 hour 20 minutes, or a bit more, if I'm feeling picky.
    This does not count on concert instrument prep at all.  That's a different world, and I'm very good at that too.

    Outside tuning customers with a piano in decent shape up to a sort of good pitch= 1.5 hours.  If I finish in 1.25 hours or hopefully less, I'll spend some time evening out basic regulation and/or voicing.  It's a standard price, so I don't tune and run.  Mostly, I do voicing. that "clicks" in the customer's head much more than regulating a few notes.  Those 2 or 3 that just stick out being overly bright (mostly) gets great reviews...much more than regulation unless it just doesn't work.

    There is NEVER a way to Guarantee a stable tuning. You just can't tell what you're getting until you get into it. Period!

    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    Glenn Korff School of Music
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu

    -------------------------------------------








  • 120.  RE: What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-29-2014 11:32
    On 1/29/2014 9:35 AM, Jim Ialeggio via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > All points bulletin!...
    >
    > Will the Wichita chapter, out there in the wild, wild, Midwest, put
    > together a posse, ride on over to Nossaman's house with a video
    > camera, and force him...at gun point, if need be, to show what he has
    > described. Same for Truitt and Love and anyone else who could engage
    > our collective mirror neurons.

    I told you I wasn't making you a video. What part of that don't you
    understand? That's the never ending joy in trying to communicate with
    you, Jim. It never happens and doesn't appear to be possible, and I'm
    not jumping through hoops to try to accommodate you because a video
    won't tell you either no matter what I do.

    Work it out for yourself or forget it.
    Ron N




  • 121.  RE: What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-29-2014 12:07
    On 1/29/2014 10:38 AM, William Truitt via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:

    > Ah, yes, that great
    > mystic, The Nossaman. :-)

    Bullshit.


    > The words are clumsy and incompletely descriptive. I'm not sure all
    > of the phenomena can be comfortably housed in language that will
    > create understanding, without kinesthetic learning. You can't put it
    > all in one box.

    It's a near universal insistence, but it's not possible for someone to
    sit on their dead butt being critical, and be educated by someone who is
    trying to tell them something. It takes work. It takes making an attempt
    to understand rather than picking the information apart and griping
    about what wasn't said or demonstrated to their satisfaction. It takes
    getting off that dead butt and trying it honestly. A few folks who did
    give it a chance or discovered it for themselves found something useful
    in it. I guarantee that those sitting and bitching about not being
    adequately taught will never get it. Those reporting positive outcomes
    from having tried it had no reference video.

    Anyone interested ought to try it for what is there to learn. Anyone not
    interested can best go away.

    Ron N




  • 122.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-29-2014 16:17
    Gary,

    I did make a video back in 2009 demonstrating a Pitch Change Tuning Pass on a Steinway D.

    I used the Reyburn CyberTuner to tune one string of each note, then tuned the others aurally.

    Maybe you can glean something useful from the video to help shorten your pitch changing time.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv



  • 123.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-31-2014 01:47
    Two other things to consider in shortening time spent tuning a piano.

    Try standing up to tune. Not for ergonomic reasons, but to increase focus. If you are tall and you are tuning a spinet, this may not work so well. If you are short like me, not a problem. I learned this from my first mentor, but also more recently Steve Brady recommended it in one of his classes. It works.

    One other trick - use earplugs. You should use them anyway to protect your main tool, right? But they also help you focus by cutting out miscellany.

    Here's a statement from my original mentor that stuck with me a long time and was very helpful in the early days. "The only thing you need to pay attention to in tuning is that which changes when you move the hammer. Ignore everything else." (Of course if you move the hammer and nothing happens, welcome to string lag and the real world of tuning. Or if you pull the string sharp and it goes flat or the reverse, welcome to the real .....)
    -------------------------------------------
    Alan McCoy
    Spokane WA
    ahm2352@gmail.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 124.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-07-2014 15:22
    Gary,

    Something that I don't feel has been mentioned that can really cut time down in the tuning process is a mental activity.

    Don't let your mind be intruded with other thoughts while sitting at a piano.

    Keep focus on why you are there. Every time other thoughts of life enter in, you aren't tuning anymore. You're just spinning wheels.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv



  • 125.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-07-2014 15:32
    I disagree Keith.

    Several times I've been tuning and space out thinking about other stuffs and think "how did I get to C-6 when I thought I was still at G-5?" Many times, I've checked the notes, and they're right on the mark.  Maybe it's just me since I've been tuning half my life?  It's just there and can't explain it.  I don't try to second guess it, I love it, and move on. And no, it's not next Tuesday by then! No UFO abductions or anything.

    Susan: Really: 11" snow in Cornvalley, Oregon??  Fun!  We only got 5" in Lincoln.  Bitter bitter cold and wind however.  Unlike y'all out in Oregon, this stuff will stick around until spring break! lol!

    At least the brain wandering makes it seem like a shorter tuning ;>)  Still only takes me an hour-10 minutes average. many classroom or frequently tuned concert grands are just 20 minute "tidy's". many times, that's all the time I can get.  Time crunches forces one to tune faster!

    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    Glenn Korff School of Music
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu

    -------------------------------------------








  • 126.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-07-2014 16:11
    Glad "space out thinking" works for you, Paul.

    I never considered this was a topic for disagreement, only possible ideas for Gary to consider how to shorten his tuning process.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv



  • 127.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-07-2014 16:28
    Really, only multiple time crunches in a university setting will get you into the get-r done mode when you only have an hour.  One get's used to it after awhile.  I don't "space out" as you say in those situations.  It's when I have all the time I need where that happens. The 60 minute or less time thing gets me right on target and focus like you can't imagine.  I've never spaced then.

    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    Glenn Korff School of Music
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu

    -------------------------------------------








  • 128.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-30-2014 01:20
    Gary,

    It may seem counter-intuitive but two passes are often faster than one and certainly more stable. I'll echo what others have said - it is in the first half second that you hear all you need to hear. Beginners always listen too long to each note. Beginners always go for "perfection" on each note before moving on. I am not a fast tuner, but it often goes something like 45 minutes first pass, 30 minutes second pass and then 10 minutes check. It will take lots of tunings and paying attention all the while to get more skillful. Hearing is the easy part, but effective hammer technique comes after many many pianos. I am still learning to tune pianos after 35 years of full time work.
    -------------------------------------------
    Alan McCoy
    Spokane WA
    ahm2352@gmail.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 129.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-31-2014 06:39
    Breaking down tuning time into components is another means to hasten the project. Consider time/strings.

    60 sec  X  60 minutes = 3600 seconds in one hour.

    Average 230 strings on a piano: 3600 / 230 = 15.65 seconds per string.

    So in order to achieve a tuning in one hour, you need to only spend 15 seconds on each string.
    If you take 30 seconds per string, you tuning time is 2 hrs.

    Logistically, this includes moving mutes and the hammer. I'm not including removing and reinstalling case parts.
    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 130.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-31-2014 18:26
    Doing the math, for a 20 minute pitch raise, 5 seconds per string.

    So if you want to practice speed tuning, since it takes you 2.5 hr to tune (37 sec/stg); shoot for 10 sec/stg and your p/r will be 40 minutes. Also if you can shoot for 1.5 hr tuning your time per string would be 22 sec.

    These times are not so much limit but a guide as to your time consumption. If you are taking longer, ask yourself why and correct.

    Practice speed on your pitch raises and accuracy on the tuning. If you are having trouble settling the pitch then you have a problem with your hammer technique. Once you've figured out the technique it will be carried over to your pitch raises and those will become more solid.

    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 131.  RE: What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 01-31-2014 19:12
    On 1/31/2014 5:25 PM, Jon Page via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:

    > Doing the math, for a 20 minute pitch raise, 5 seconds per string.

    My suggestion of tuning in the attack wasn't for pitch raises, as a
    couple of posts seem to have suggested (apologies if I misinterpreted).
    It was for finish tuning, because the question was how to speed up
    tuning. The suggestion of going over it twice to start was a training
    exercise to illustrate how close you can get tuning as fast as you can.
    Tuning as fast as you can also forces tuning in the attack by default,
    because you never get to the decay where virtually all beginners spend
    their time trying to tune. And lastly, it was suggested as an aural
    exercise. I have no idea how it works with an ETD or even if an ETD
    tuner will realize any benefit from it at all.

    Still trying to clarify the point.
    Ron N




  • 132.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2014 00:34
    Ron Nossaman wrote: 

    "My suggestion of tuning in the attack... I have no idea how it works with an ETD or even if an ETD
    tuner will realize any benefit from it at all."

    Ron,  I have been tuning at march tempo since reading your suggestion ages ago, and it has been good for me, so thanks.  

    I use an ETD, and notice that I change tempo for each note.  I hit a little slower when setting the first string to the machine, maybe one strike per second, and speed up to roughly two hits per second when pulling in the second and third aurally.  

    One of the advantages of rapid striking is that the upper partials are louder, relative to the fundamental, earlier in the envelope.  Since the ETD can "hear" the upper partials at any volume level, that relative loudness is not a great advantage.  There is more image clarity after the initial attack noise dies down.  I've seen the ETD pick up the pitch when the strings are nearly inaudibly rubbed by a lifting damper or bowed while moving rubber mutes.  It will read the pitch of a normally struck note, accurately, for many seconds of sustain.

    Some people claim they see pitch shift after the attack, and want to tune in the sustain portion.  I have only seen shift when muted strings of the unison are bleeding through at higher or lower pitch early in the envelope, or when false strings toggle from the high side to low side or vise versa as the amplitude decays.  For bleeding, I shift the mute up or down the string, and it is less of a problem when the other two strings are close to target to begin with.  For falseness, I've been using TuneLab to zero in on the higher of the two pitches on the spectrum display and ignore the shifting phase display.  The rapid striking doesn't seem to hurt or help that.  

    The other advantages of rapid striking, namely stabilizing the string and moving faster, makes it worth while for the ETD user to pick up the pace.

    I share Ron's frustration with discussions of tuning degenerating into arguments over ETD vs Aural:  There are elements of self promotion, ego protection, ignorance, and attempts at product differentiation.  It seems to me folks find a method they can handle, and then unconsciously assume anyone who does anything differently must be a quack.  "I tried it your way and it doesn't work (for me), so you must be a liar and a cheat." 

    What drives the high reply volume is the need to respond when someone puts bad information in front of the uneducated public, and the Pianotech list is public.  Statements like "Only people who tune 100 percent by ear can provide a 'perfect', 'artistic', 'singing' tuning" are untrue and unfair. To counter that ignorance, ETD users have to defend the ETD against mythology and urban legend, lest the public see only a one sided argument.  It is easy for the public to nod in agreement with the idea that "real" tuners use their ears, and have for centuries.  Using a machine is "cheating".  You know, just like doing math in your head instead of a calculator.  Or making change instead of relying on the cash register to figure it out for you.  Or like engineers using computerized finite element analysis instead of a slide rule, or machinists using CNC machines instead of a blacksmith's anvil.  New is bad.  GAAAAA!  

    I know great aural tuners and terrible aural tuners.  I know great ETD tuners (best described as "electronically assisted aural tuners") and terrible ETD tuners.  I would put the best up against the best any day, and they can fight to a draw.  But... I'll bet the worst ETD users get closer more often than the worst aural tuners, because they have an impartial assistant to tell them when they screwed up, if they care enough to check.  I'm hoping most of us on this list care enough to do great work regardless of which methods we find most comfortable and efficient, and that we will have enough sense to promote and encourage great work even if the other person doesn't do it "my" way.  

    -------------------------------------------
    Greg Graham, RPT
    Brodheadsville, PA
    -------------------------------------------





  • 133.  RE: What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-08-2014 21:34
    On 2/8/2014 8:09 PM, John Formsma via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:

    > Not to denigrate what you've written. It has been easy to understand.
    > But I keep feeling like we've had this conversation before. Was it in
    > 2013? 2012? 2011? Yes! ;-)

    Yes, yes, yes, yes, and many times yes. Tuning discussions of any sort
    seem to quickly degenerate into a relentless defense of ETD use. Why?
    Ron N




  • 134.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2014 20:03
    In the interest of full disclosure, I am an aural tuner and believe that some level or aural skill should be regarded as essential for any piano technician.

    However, to be arguing in 2014 that ETD's are either inaccurate or inefficient is, IMO, a waste of time and even a bit ignorant. The advances made in ETD's over the last couple of decades have made (or at least should have made) that debate obsolete.

    To be completely honest there are two primary reasons why I continue to tune aurally. One is inertia. My average tuning time is about an hour. Although most of my work is in private homes I do provide service to many professional musicians and smaller concert venues - tuning for probably two or three concerts per month on average. Granted, these are not Symphony Hall concerts, but if these customers are not complaining, and are still having me back, things must be O.K. At 62 years old I am more than a little reluctant to subject myself to the time required (learning curve) to learn a completely different approach to tuning. The second reason could best be described as philosophical. Susan Kline, and others, have touched on this and I won't elaborate here. "Philosophy of tuning"  might be an interesting topic for another thread.

    Of all the suggestions I have seen under this topic of increasing speed the best one, in my opinion, came from David Love. His suggestion of strip muting the entire piano and keeping track of every phase of the tuning process would be helpful whether tuning aurally or with an ETD. Breaking down the tuning process into it's various sub-operations would be a very eye opening experience - particularly for those new to the trade.   


    -------------------------------------------
    Gerry Johnston
    Haverhill, MA
    gj@gjpianotuner.com
    www.gjpianotuner.com
    (978) 372-2250
    -------------------------------------------








  • 135.  RE: What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-10-2014 20:44
    On 2/10/2014 7:16 PM, John Formsma via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:

    >
    >
    > It
    > will (hopefully) demonstrate to others what it's like to tune at the
    > beginning of the attack rather than waiting for the decay.

    Excellent, John. This is very very similar to what I do (and described)
    but I hit them just slightly faster, and a bit harder. As I've said, I
    make a lot of noise tuning. The result is quick, comfortable, and very
    stable.

    Good job, thank you.
    Ron N




  • 136.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-11-2014 09:38
    Thanks for the feedback, Ron.

    Glad it got close to what you described. And thanks again for teaching this to us years ago.

    -------------------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    Blue Mountain MS


    -------------------------------------------








  • 137.  RE: What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-11-2014 10:34
    On 2/11/2014 8:47 AM, John Formsma via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:

    >
    > And if I've interpreted your writing correctly, I've already done
    > some experimenting with that...even fairly recently again. My
    > conclusion was that it doesn't really affect stability that much, at
    > least for me.

    Me either, and had this conversation with David a year or so ago. I
    stumbled across this early on, entertaining myself while I was tuning
    practice rooms, and have explored it pretty thoroughly through the years
    since. I've found that I still have to do the usual small pin torque
    tests at the end to verify that tension balances torque to my
    satisfaction anyway, so I don't find the technique to be a big benefit
    to speed, and none for stability. I still use the technique regularly
    where it fits the piano's response, but a final settling verification is
    still necessary for me. Why do I still use it anyway? Because it's
    comfortable to me, and does minimize the over pull necessity and narrows
    the "guess" window.


    > And another thing I've noticed is that as long as I'm feeling the pin
    > movement correctly, lever position doesn't really matter to me. I can
    > tune at 10:00-4:00 and get the same pin sensation and an idea of
    > where it's gonna end up.

    Likewise. That's one reason I've said that memorizing "hammer
    techniques" is useless. We adapt as necessary with each pin.
    Ron N




  • 138.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2014 23:19
    John and Ron:

    The fact that one can tune from anywhere between 10:00 and 4:00 doesn't mean that you should or that it would be good advice to offer someone trying to improve their skills and/or speed and efficiency.  As I've already said, I find a puposeful and consistent approach ("memorizing hammer technique" is a pretty disparaging way of putting it--but I do get the intent there) is the best approach (in most things).  Of course small adjustments are made as the torque and rendering conditions vary somewhat as does the position of the hammer owing to the pin head geometry.  But the recording that I heard suggests a fair amount of see-sawing of the pitch.  I think it's better to avoid that, or at least to minimize it.  

    If you are tuning from the flat side, tuning from the 4:00 position (grand piano) will cause more pitch fluctuation from flagpolling than tuning from the 10:00 position.  If you examine the rotational and vector forces of the hammer on the pin it will be apparent why that is so.  As I already mentioned there may be some variability owing to differences in torque in the block but on well crafted blocks the torque is often fairly uniform and force vectors in terms of both magnitude and direction can be more easily predicted as you go.  By adjusting the direction of the force vector you can drastically reduce pitch fluctuation from flagpolling and simply concentrate on the feel of the pin move (if you can't feel the pin move then you will have more difficulty).  That process eliminates or reduces the variable of the pitch sliding back and forth through the rendering points and creating the possibility of segments of the string remaining out of equilibrium.  Fewer things to leave unstable means, overall, greater stability after the job is done and less clean up.  Pretty basic concept.  

    Traditionally tuners have been taught to always keep the force on the lever on a purely horizontal plane.  When you suggest tuning anywhere from 10:00 to 4:00 that is the implication and the see-sawing that tends to accompany that style of tuning is evident in Johns's recording. I don't agree with that approach even though I am aware that pinblocks that exhibit very low torque will allow you tune on a much more horizontal plane and avoid the issues I've cited.  I'll assume the reasons for that are evident.  

    But I won't argue with how anyone chooses to tune.  I have no doubt, with the talent and experience present on this list, that there are those who could do it with one hand tied behind their back.     





    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 139.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-12-2014 06:15


    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------

    David, with nothing but respect for you and your contribution, I will have to offer a small disagreement with you as to what else will work.  I am left handed, so I push to pitch.  For me the best starting position on a grand is about 11:00.  My forearm is resting on the stretcher or plate, which allows me a lot of stability and control while moving the pin (more so than if my arm is suspended in the air while moving it).  The conventional wisdom is that we should move the pin the least amount possible to bring it to pitch, I have found that what works best for me is to drop the pitch 10 cents or even quite a bit more before pushing to pitch.  I can then feel the pin moving and I can drop it on a dime at the pitch point.  I can push it to pitch and it will be stable.  Or a smidgen above and drop it back will be stable.  If I overshoot, I pull it flat the same large amount and head north again.  If I am having a good day, I can hit my target point on the first or second try.  I don't end up flagpoling back and forth such as we hear in the sample.

    The interesting thing is that, the tighter the pins are, the further south I go before heading north.  This seems to get the bend out of the pin and it arrives at the target point without a bend in the pin, which allows it to be stable. Test blows confirm the stability, but I usually know before I even check whether it is solid - I get that from the feel of the pin as I move it.

    My technique is pretty much horizontal although I feel myself deviating out of that plane by very small amounts, depending on the block.

    I am not going to say that my technique is better or worse than yours or anybody elses.  It is something that I have evolved over the years.  The original impetus was to get away from the flagpoling when tuning the high treble when the blocks are tight, and it worked well there.  Gradually it moved down into the rest of the scale and has developed into my go-to method.  

    Thanks for your contributions to what has been a very good discussion.

     

    Will Truitt

     








  • 140.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-12-2014 10:20
    That makes sense.  While I may not agree with moving the pitch that far off at first one can do it that way.  I think it introduces excessive movement through the bearing points as I've mentioned but I won't rehash that point.  .  

    On the other point, however, tuning a grand from 11:00 applies the same counter force that I apply at 1:00 by a employing a vector which applies a directional force that is the sum of a downward pressure (flexing the pin toward the strings) and clockwise rotational pressure.  In the 11:00 position (tuning left handed or right handed) the flexing of the pin toward the strings will happen naturally as a consequence of the lever position and fundamental lever mechanics.  For a right handed person that can be a physically awkward position, though I do reach around to that side on occasion when the pins are very tight and also when I am standing to the side of the piano and tuning the high treble where that position is easier to achieve.  But for a left handed person it is much more natural.  

    I might also add that as the pin gets tighter a move of the lever more toward the 9:00 position will produce more flexing toward the string to offset the twisting of the pin before it moves in the block.  For pins that are less tight a position closer to the 12:00 position is all that's required because that will produce less flexing of the pins toward the strings but the amount of flexing required will be less because the twisting of the pin in the block will be less.   

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 141.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-12-2014 11:31
    Will:

    Just an added note, and not meaning this in a critical way just a clarification and further discussion (of moving the pitch south first).  I do something very similar especially when pins are tight.  From my 1:00 position the motion I use is almost a small circle, or elipse, somewhat like you are turning a crank. The small movement away from you produces a small flex that just nudges that pitch and gives you a bit of a bearing and sense of the pin flex, how the string is rendering (does the pitch react instantly) and overall pitch movement, then the crank moves around and under which is the vectored force that I try and use.  At this point that vector (it varies slightly with how easily the pin moves) is somewhat instinctive, achieved by feel not by memorization or precalculation, but if all goes well, once I feel the requisite amount of pin movement in the block and relax the pin the pitch stays put with the absolute minimum of see-sawing on the way there--hopefully none.  

    Our difference in this may simply be one of magnitude.  Certainly there are times when the first nudge pushes the pitch south by 10 cents or more if things react unexpectedly or if I overdo it.  But my goal in these cases is always minimalist and I try and just nudge the pitch until I pick up the slightest movement.  I find it takes very little movement to get my bearings, for me, less is more.  Also, and not insignificantly, I do notice that the magnitude of that nudge is different when I'm setting the reference note with the ETD as opposed to tuning the unisons aurally.  With the ETD the spinner gives me my bearings right away and is very sensitive to the slightest movement and may require no nudge at all southward, with the aural setting of unisons there's a slightly different feedback loop.    In short, I prefer that the see-sawing should never be greater than the distance one needs to travel to begin with.  

    Anyway, I appreciate the comments. It's like talking golf swing with a left handed golfer.  A whole new set of opportunities for confusion.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 142.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-12-2014 15:50


    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------

    Yes, my left handedness is another whole set of opportunities for confusion, and a Yin Yang push-pull set of movements.  Which is better  - a saw that you pull or one that you push?  Well that depends, and one could argue successfully for either.  I'm not married to either and I am all for whatever works.  I try to be careful to not extrapolate my experience onto others (as some others have done).  I just know that it works for me.  

    As for the amount of pin movement when I pull it flat, that can vary quite widely, depending on the pinblock.  Basically, I take it as far flat as I need to in order to get the twist out of the pin before I push the pin back up to the pitch point.  Otherwise the technique won't work because the twist in the pin means that it will not be stable, and then start wanging the pin flat or sharp to get it there.  I don't micro-manage the pin movement, I just pull it flat again and start over.   That might be as little as a few cents or as much as 25 cents.  I don't measure it per se, but I can watch it on Tune Lab and know how much I am moving it.   

    By the way, I tuned a Steinway grand this afternoon and paid closer attention to my technique.  I am not really aware that I am doing it (so instinctive by this point), but I do lever the hammer up when pushing to pitch, and push it down when settling to pitch.  It's not that much, but it is there, and part of how I manage the control of the pin.  

    I should mention too that, if I release my pushing pressure on the hammer and have not arrived at the target, I have to start over by pulling the note flat again.   Otherwise the pin ends up being flexed if I try to make too small a movement, and won't be stable.  

    And, like anybody else, how much or how little it needs is a conversation that my mind and body have with the pinblock and strings with each pianos

    Your first paragraph describes pretty closely what I do. 

    I have to wonder if there are some differences in magnitude required by the direction we come from - you pulling and me pushing.  I guess it should be the same thing more or less, but it certainly is different biomechanically.  

    As for tuning unisons aurally or ETD, I do both.  I find that I can hear the unison drop in place a hair before the ETD tells me that it is so. 

    Let's have a tuning competition.  The only rule is that we both have to tune with our left hand.  :-)

     

    Will






  • 143.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-12-2014 16:19
    If there was ever a time for Bill Monroe to jump in this fight, it's now.

    I know you're out there, Bill. Probably still looking for the man in black...



    -------------------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    Blue Mountain MS


    -------------------------------------------








  • 144.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-12-2014 17:14
    Will,

    In October 2012, I had rotator cuff surgery on my right shoulder, and ended up doing a fair amount of tuning left-handed. I agree with what you've written, except I don't drop pitch that much.

    From my perspective, the left-handed 11:00 position is essentially the same as a right-handed 11:00-1:00 position. It takes pin flex out of the equation.

    And yes, when tuning left handed, just get pitch barely above target, release, and you're good. At least that was my experience, slow as it was doing it with the "wrong" hand. 

    My gut sort of tells me tuning grands left-handed is actually better from a physics perspective. But the reality is that it's faster with my right, and I've learned how to better minimize shoulder stress now. So far, so good.

    -------------------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    Blue Mountain MS


    -------------------------------------------








  • 145.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-12-2014 12:03
    Thanks guys for a lively discussion on speedy tuning. As usual we all can never agree but we still can learn new methods that may make tuning life a little easier. I appreciate the discussions.

    -------------------------------------------
    Thomas Black
    Decatur AL
    256-350-9315
    -------------------------------------------





  • 146.  RE: What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-11-2014 10:54
    On 2/11/2014 9:34 AM, Ronald Nossaman via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:

    > Why do I still use it anyway? Because it's
    > comfortable to me, and does minimize the over pull necessity and narrows
    > the "guess" window.

    I'd like to clarify this some. The over pull is still there, and
    necessary. It's just mostly in the pin flex, and you don't hear it. The
    final string/pin settling is still necessary because you otherwise get
    no aural/tactile verification of the final balance between torque and
    tension without checking it directly as you must with any method.

    I think that's it.
    Ron N




  • 147.  RE:What's the secret to going faster?

    Posted 02-13-2014 01:12
    All,

    I didn't know who to reply to, so I shall just write this to the first person to pose the question.

    I just tuned a 1977 Wurlitzer Spinet today that in my estimation had never been tuned since the day it was sold.

    Using the -200 cents to pitch RCT program on the first pass, and a 0-60 cents program on the second pass I managed to get the piano to a relative pitch of A440, in the the door and out with a few minor action adjustments, and was paid in 1 hour and 1/2.

    I advised the customer that I would not be able to guarantee stability of my visit because of the pianos status, recommended a tuning one month down the road unless they were totally satisfied with the way the piano sounded at that time, and to continue with their satisfaction until they were nor longer satisfied.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv