Pianotech

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: Pianotech and PTG-L .
-------------------------------------------

Recently it has come to my attention that PTG website is not first in line when our potential customers are seeking information or looking for a tuner in their area. In fact, it is not even on the first page of listings in Google. (Would you believe, buried on page 3?)

A few years ago I was bragging to associate members about what a boom to my business being listed as an RPT on the PTG Website was. I was getting a new customer almost every week through the PTG listing.
 Not anymore.

Now I get  two or three a week referred  by "Thumbtack", an on-line "find-a-Pro" to-render-services outfit where the various "pros" send bids for the work being sought. These bids go directly to the individuals looking for the services.  The " Pros", in the case of piano tuners, can be anyone. I'm guessing the service may not be of the highest quality...not good for the public, not good for our industry, (and certainly not good for me, as my bids tend to be higher than those competitors.)

Where is the PTG?  Why are we not first and foremost on line? The opportunity to be a real presence in the piano world has never been more possible.
Why are we floundering?

Judith Palmer, RPT

SEPA Chapter

-------------------------------------------
Judith Palmer
Bala Cynwyd PA
610-667-9567
-------------------------------------------

 

In my opinion I don't believe it is wise to rely on another entity for SEO strategies.

 From my understanding Google page placements are run by a weekly or daily auction; the more an advertiser is willing to pay for the ADword campaign the better the page placement.

Example; you pay 100 per month and have a certain page placement. A few weeks or months down the road, competitors purchasing ADword drive your placement onto the second or third page.

Then it becomes 150 a month to retain the same placing. You get the idea from there..... this issue of not being on the first page is Google or its representatives selling advertising by fear.

Best to have ones own SEO strategy; a CMS web site or a partially dynamic website of HTML and some CMS.

-------------------------------------------

Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/

You pay for ad placement, and you do SEO legwork in order to get listed higher in the search results. Many of my customers don't know the difference, so I put time and money into both.

Don't get lost in the web-development acronym mumbo-jumbo, CMS, HTML, or BLAH, it's all websites and whether people, search engines, or referral mediators see them.

Hi Jim,

Agreed. All good points.

Google should be required to prominently display a disclaimer to this effect:

Despite the fact that you believe that the algorithyms we use are designed to deliver the most relevant search results possible, this is not the case. Often, in fact, relevancy is based upon how much a sponsor is willing to pay to have their links appear at the top of search results whether they are factually relevant or not. Sucker...

WARNING: Permitting this comment to appear on your web site may result in a very poor Google ranking.

I am currently being persuaded for the 3rd time in a year to go through my Google Adword campaign. Jim - permission to reply with your spot-on analysis of their high pressure tactics.

Thank you.


-------------------------------------------
Phil Bondi,RPT
Bondi's Piano Service
www.philbondi.com
239-949-3688

-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 3/14/2014 1:42:02 PM
From: silverwoodpianos@shaw.ca
Subject: RE:PTG Memeberl losing out

Hi Jim,

Agreed. All good points.

Google should be required to prominently display a disclaimer to this effect:

Despite the fact that you believe that the algorithyms we use are designed to deliver the most relevant search results possible, this is not the case. Often, in fact, relevancy is based upon how much a sponsor is willing to pay to have their links appear at the top of search results whether they are factually relevant or not. Sucker...

WARNING: Permitting this comment to appear on your web site may result in a very poor Google ranking.

3rd time?
Only?
I get emails and mailings regularly offering me first $50, and now $100 off if I please, pretty please, take out some paid advertising.

I have a website set-up right now - I am on Google page 1, usually at #1 spot.
Of course in a large metropolitan area it is more difficult to stay at #1 than in smaller centers. 
-------------------------------------------
Jurgen Goering

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-14-2014 14:16
From: Phil Bondi
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

I am currently being persuaded for the 3rd time in a year to go through my Google Adword campaign. Jim - permission to reply with your spot-on analysis of their high pressure tactics.

Thank you.


-------------------------------------------
Phil Bondi,RPT
Bondi's Piano Service
www.philbondi.com
239-949-3688

-------------------------------------------

On 3/14/2014 10:22 PM, Jurgen Goering via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> 3rd time? Only? I get emails and mailings regularly offering me first
> $50, and now $100 off if I please, pretty please, take out some paid
> advertising.

Trade you. They CALL me.
Ron N


Original Message------

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: Pianotech and PTG-L .
-------------------------------------------

Recently it has come to my attention that PTG website is not first in line when our potential customers are seeking information or looking for a tuner in their area. In fact, it is not even on the first page of listings in Google. (Would you believe, buried on page 3?)

A few years ago I was bragging to associate members about what a boom to my business being listed as an RPT on the PTG Website was. I was getting a new customer almost every week through the PTG listing.
 Not anymore.

Now I get  two or three a week referred  by "Thumbtack", an on-line "find-a-Pro" to-render-services outfit where the various "pros" send bids for the work being sought. These bids go directly to the individuals looking for the services.  The " Pros", in the case of piano tuners, can be anyone. I'm guessing the service may not be of the highest quality...not good for the public, not good for our industry, (and certainly not good for me, as my bids tend to be higher than those competitors.)

Where is the PTG?  Why are we not first and foremost on line? The opportunity to be a real presence in the piano world has never been more possible.
Why are we floundering?

Judith Palmer, RPT

SEPA Chapter

-------------------------------------------
Judith Palmer
Bala Cynwyd PA
610-667-9567
-------------------------------------------

Great discussion item.  I advertise on Google like most of us.  I've seen the Thumbtack requests for tuning, but I know my rates are going to be higher than the "tooners" who'll respond to the same ad.  I hate to spend $3 on a single lead to find out a cheaper tuner has underbid me.  I'm theorizing that most customers who go to that site are looking for the Walmart price when they go to Thumbtack.  Or maybe I'm just cynical.

-------------------------------------------
Ron Bergeron, RPT
PianoWorks LLC
Round Rock, TX
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-14-2014 00:20
From: Judith Palmer
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: Pianotech and PTG-L .
-------------------------------------------

Recently it has come to my attention that PTG website is not first in line when our potential customers are seeking information or looking for a tuner in their area. In fact, it is not even on the first page of listings in Google. (Would you believe, buried on page 3?)

A few years ago I was bragging to associate members about what a boom to my business being listed as an RPT on the PTG Website was. I was getting a new customer almost every week through the PTG listing.
 Not anymore.

Now I get  two or three a week referred  by "Thumbtack", an on-line "find-a-Pro" to-render-services outfit where the various "pros" send bids for the work being sought. These bids go directly to the individuals looking for the services.  The " Pros", in the case of piano tuners, can be anyone. I'm guessing the service may not be of the highest quality...not good for the public, not good for our industry, (and certainly not good for me, as my bids tend to be higher than those competitors.)

Where is the PTG?  Why are we not first and foremost on line? The opportunity to be a real presence in the piano world has never been more possible.
Why are we floundering?

Judith Palmer, RPT

SEPA Chapter

-------------------------------------------
Judith Palmer
Bala Cynwyd PA
610-667-9567
-------------------------------------------

It depends on location. PTG is on the first page near the top in our area. ------------------------------------------- [Ronald] [Moore] [Ft. Wayne] [IN] [260-241-1772] Moorepiano.com -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 03-14-2014 00:20 From: Judith Palmer Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: Pianotech and PTG-L . ------------------------------------------- Recently it has come to my attention that PTG website is not first in line when our potential customers are seeking information or looking for a tuner in their area. In fact, it is not even on the first page of listings in Google. (Would you believe, buried on page 3?) A few years ago I was bragging to associate members about what a boom to my business being listed as an RPT on the PTG Website was. I was getting a new customer almost every week through the PTG listing. Not anymore. Now I get two or three a week referred by "Thumbtack", an on-line "find-a-Pro" to-render-services outfit where the various "pros" send bids for the work being sought. These bids go directly to the individuals looking for the services. The " Pros", in the case of piano tuners, can be anyone. I'm guessing the service may not be of the highest quality...not good for the public, not good for our industry, (and certainly not good for me, as my bids tend to be higher than those competitors.) Where is the PTG? Why are we not first and foremost on line? The opportunity to be a real presence in the piano world has never been more possible. Why are we floundering? Judith Palmer, RPT SEPA Chapter ------------------------------------------- Judith Palmer Bala Cynwyd PA 610-667-9567 -------------------------------------------

I think that if we want potential clients to come to the PTG web site, we nees to do a much better job of having a useful, informative, easily-navigatable site. Personally, I don't have a link to ptg.com or refer my clients to it for that reason.

I think that the biggest problem is that the site caters both to piano technicians and piano owners, even though we have totally different online needs. If we are serious about having an online presence to encourage people to maintain their pianos, use RPTs, etc., then I think that we need a dedicated site just for that. That kind of site would then be worth putting money into SEO and Google Adwords.

-------------------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianoservice.com
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 3/15/2014 7:47:23 AM
From: ronmoore8426@gmail.com
Subject: RE:PTG Memeberl losing out

It depends on location. PTG is on the first page near the top in our area. ------------------------------------------- [Ronald] [Moore] [Ft. Wayne] [IN] [260-241-1772] Moorepiano.com -------------------------------------------

Peter- Informed customers are our best choice, not bargain hunters. Suppose we had a tuning specific site "All about tuning your piano by the Piano Technicians Guild" Would there be enough information shoppers visiting the site to move it to the top on Google? ------------------------------------------- Ed Sutton Editor Piano Technicians Journal ed440@me.com 704-536-7926 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 03-15-2014 10:48 From: Peter Stevenson Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out I think that if we want potential clients to come to the PTG web site, we nees to do a much better job of having a useful, informative, easily-navigatable site. Personally, I don't have a link to ptg.com or refer my clients to it for that reason. I think that the biggest problem is that the site caters both to piano technicians and piano owners, even though we have totally different online needs. If we are serious about having an online presence to encourage people to maintain their pianos, use RPTs, etc., then I think that we need a dedicated site just for that. That kind of site would then be worth putting money into SEO and Google Adwords. ------------------------------------------- Peter Stevenson RPT P.S. Piano Service Prince George BC 250-562-5358 ps@pspianoservice.com -------------------------------------------

Without advancing the discussion on the poor usability of the current PTG site let me say that I get at least a call a week from a customer who found me via the PTG site, and they consistently tell me that they went there because they specifically wanted an RPT to service their piano. Therefore, I think PTG is doing a pretty decent job on their recent efforts to promote PTG and RPT's. Whether that means the public is actually visiting more of the site than just the "Click here to find a Registered Piano Technician" button is moot to me as long as they are finding that button. 

When I was first starting out I had a Google AdWords account. For me it was a total waste of effort and money, and after about a year I did what I could to shut it down. (Not an easy thing to do in a system that deliberately and literally makes it impossible to opt out of this service once you have opted in.) Reason one was the consistent bidding wars on pay-per-click positioning. It just got too expensive for the return. Reason two was because of the client base it was attracting. Mostly bargain hunters who found pianos on Craigslist. NOT the client base I wanting to cultivate. And third, I was pretty much keeping my calendar well booked just from referrals from other customers. And I still do. But I am also fortunate to have secured a relationship with a well respected dealer. Floor tunings and referrals are worth every effort I put in to maintaining that relationship. And if you don't have a relationship with at least one dealer I encourage you to start one.

But don't get me wrong. I think Google AdWords is a great place for just starting out technicians to begin building their client base. Depending on your skill and location it may continue to work for you for years. It just doesn't work for me. I treat Google as a good research tool. And as far as advertising, I treat it just like the phone companies promoted ads in the Yellow Pages. It's not where you go to find a service for the first time so much as it is a place to find a service you have used in the past but whose name you have forgotten. 

I believe that pretty much all of us maintain, at best, something like a 20% to 25% reliable repeat customer base. That other 75% or so is made up of new and referred customers, which is why we are all always seeking new customers. And I firmly believe that the best new customers come from referrals from satisfied existing customers. Go out of your way to keep your existing customers happy and they will reward you with high praise to their friends. Best advertising you can get!


-------------------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 10:48
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

I think that if we want potential clients to come to the PTG web site, we nees to do a much better job of having a useful, informative, easily-navigatable site. Personally, I don't have a link to ptg.com or refer my clients to it for that reason.

I think that the biggest problem is that the site caters both to piano technicians and piano owners, even though we have totally different online needs. If we are serious about having an online presence to encourage people to maintain their pianos, use RPTs, etc., then I think that we need a dedicated site just for that. That kind of site would then be worth putting money into SEO and Google Adwords.

-------------------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianoservice.com
-------------------------------------------

Geoff, very well said.  Every year I spend $30 and get a free $100 coupon from Google Adwords.  I get a couple of jobs a year from Google.  A good return on my $30 investment.  I also get a couple of jobs a year from ptg.org.  That pays for my annual dues.  I'm too expensive to get much business from advertising.

Most of my private clients are either repeat business or referrals from my clients.  They are all pre sold and are glad to pay my fees.

This is what I have taught in my business classes.  Your job is to deputize your clients as your sales force.  Take the time to talk with your clients.  Tell them exactly what you want them to tell their friends about you.  Everyone wants to believe that they have the best of whatever service they are using.  Take the time to hone your presentation.  Tell your clients something special about your work situation.  Make it special enough so that they will repeat it to their friends.  Put the same attention to detail in how you present yourself to your clients as you do into perfecting your piano technician skills.

-------------------------------------------
Carl Lieberman
RPT
Venice CA
310-392-2771
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 17:13
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

Without advancing the discussion on the poor usability of the current PTG site let me say that I get at least a call a week from a customer who found me via the PTG site, and they consistently tell me that they went there because they specifically wanted an RPT to service their piano. Therefore, I think PTG is doing a pretty decent job on their recent efforts to promote PTG and RPT's. Whether that means the public is actually visiting more of the site than just the "Click here to find a Registered Piano Technician" button is moot to me as long as they are finding that button. 

When I was first starting out I had a Google AdWords account. For me it was a total waste of effort and money, and after about a year I did what I could to shut it down. (Not an easy thing to do in a system that deliberately and literally makes it impossible to opt out of this service once you have opted in.) Reason one was the consistent bidding wars on pay-per-click positioning. It just got too expensive for the return. Reason two was because of the client base it was attracting. Mostly bargain hunters who found pianos on Craigslist. NOT the client base I wanting to cultivate. And third, I was pretty much keeping my calendar well booked just from referrals from other customers. And I still do. But I am also fortunate to have secured a relationship with a well respected dealer. Floor tunings and referrals are worth every effort I put in to maintaining that relationship. And if you don't have a relationship with at least one dealer I encourage you to start one.

But don't get me wrong. I think Google AdWords is a great place for just starting out technicians to begin building their client base. Depending on your skill and location it may continue to work for you for years. It just doesn't work for me. I treat Google as a good research tool. And as far as advertising, I treat it just like the phone companies promoted ads in the Yellow Pages. It's not where you go to find a service for the first time so much as it is a place to find a service you have used in the past but whose name you have forgotten. 

I believe that pretty much all of us maintain, at best, something like a 20% to 25% reliable repeat customer base. That other 75% or so is made up of new and referred customers, which is why we are all always seeking new customers. And I firmly believe that the best new customers come from referrals from satisfied existing customers. Go out of your way to keep your existing customers happy and they will reward you with high praise to their friends. Best advertising you can get!


-------------------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 10:48
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

I think that if we want potential clients to come to the PTG web site, we nees to do a much better job of having a useful, informative, easily-navigatable site. Personally, I don't have a link to ptg.com or refer my clients to it for that reason.

I think that the biggest problem is that the site caters both to piano technicians and piano owners, even though we have totally different online needs. If we are serious about having an online presence to encourage people to maintain their pianos, use RPTs, etc., then I think that we need a dedicated site just for that. That kind of site would then be worth putting money into SEO and Google Adwords.

-------------------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianoservice.com
-------------------------------------------

Earlier in the discussion Thumbtack was mentioned.  I signed up for about 10 minutes before deleting my account, there were red flags all over it. I did some research and most of the reviews I read said it was a scam.  I'm curious if anyone has had a positive experience with it? 

-------------------------------------------
Corena Trader
Owner/Technician
Snoqualmie WA
425-281-2849
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 18:12
From: Carl Lieberman
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

Geoff, very well said.  Every year I spend $30 and get a free $100 coupon from Google Adwords.  I get a couple of jobs a year from Google.  A good return on my $30 investment.  I also get a couple of jobs a year from ptg.org.  That pays for my annual dues.  I'm too expensive to get much business from advertising.

Most of my private clients are either repeat business or referrals from my clients.  They are all pre sold and are glad to pay my fees.

This is what I have taught in my business classes.  Your job is to deputize your clients as your sales force.  Take the time to talk with your clients.  Tell them exactly what you want them to tell their friends about you.  Everyone wants to believe that they have the best of whatever service they are using.  Take the time to hone your presentation.  Tell your clients something special about your work situation.  Make it special enough so that they will repeat it to their friends.  Put the same attention to detail in how you present yourself to your clients as you do into perfecting your piano technician skills.

-------------------------------------------
Carl Lieberman
RPT
Venice CA
310-392-2771
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 17:13
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

Without advancing the discussion on the poor usability of the current PTG site let me say that I get at least a call a week from a customer who found me via the PTG site, and they consistently tell me that they went there because they specifically wanted an RPT to service their piano. Therefore, I think PTG is doing a pretty decent job on their recent efforts to promote PTG and RPT's. Whether that means the public is actually visiting more of the site than just the "Click here to find a Registered Piano Technician" button is moot to me as long as they are finding that button. 

When I was first starting out I had a Google AdWords account. For me it was a total waste of effort and money, and after about a year I did what I could to shut it down. (Not an easy thing to do in a system that deliberately and literally makes it impossible to opt out of this service once you have opted in.) Reason one was the consistent bidding wars on pay-per-click positioning. It just got too expensive for the return. Reason two was because of the client base it was attracting. Mostly bargain hunters who found pianos on Craigslist. NOT the client base I wanting to cultivate. And third, I was pretty much keeping my calendar well booked just from referrals from other customers. And I still do. But I am also fortunate to have secured a relationship with a well respected dealer. Floor tunings and referrals are worth every effort I put in to maintaining that relationship. And if you don't have a relationship with at least one dealer I encourage you to start one.

But don't get me wrong. I think Google AdWords is a great place for just starting out technicians to begin building their client base. Depending on your skill and location it may continue to work for you for years. It just doesn't work for me. I treat Google as a good research tool. And as far as advertising, I treat it just like the phone companies promoted ads in the Yellow Pages. It's not where you go to find a service for the first time so much as it is a place to find a service you have used in the past but whose name you have forgotten. 

I believe that pretty much all of us maintain, at best, something like a 20% to 25% reliable repeat customer base. That other 75% or so is made up of new and referred customers, which is why we are all always seeking new customers. And I firmly believe that the best new customers come from referrals from satisfied existing customers. Go out of your way to keep your existing customers happy and they will reward you with high praise to their friends. Best advertising you can get!


-------------------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 10:48
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

I think that if we want potential clients to come to the PTG web site, we nees to do a much better job of having a useful, informative, easily-navigatable site. Personally, I don't have a link to ptg.com or refer my clients to it for that reason.

I think that the biggest problem is that the site caters both to piano technicians and piano owners, even though we have totally different online needs. If we are serious about having an online presence to encourage people to maintain their pianos, use RPTs, etc., then I think that we need a dedicated site just for that. That kind of site would then be worth putting money into SEO and Google Adwords.

-------------------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianoservice.com
-------------------------------------------

I've received a few Thumbtack 'nibbles' but I've heard nothing from the several quotes that I've sent.  I'm thinking that it is probably a 'phishing' expedition or perhaps from some of the local 'tooners' that are trying to get information about what other technicians are charging for their services.  Like you, Corena, I'm going to cancel my account as well.  It's just not worth it.

-------------------------------------------
Thomas Rhea
Owner and Technician
Rhea Piano Services
Norfolk VA
757-373-0284
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-16-2014 14:02
From: Corena Trader
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

Earlier in the discussion Thumbtack was mentioned.  I signed up for about 10 minutes before deleting my account, there were red flags all over it. I did some research and most of the reviews I read said it was a scam.  I'm curious if anyone has had a positive experience with it? 

-------------------------------------------
Corena Trader
Owner/Technician
Snoqualmie WA
425-281-2849
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 18:12
From: Carl Lieberman
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

Geoff, very well said.  Every year I spend $30 and get a free $100 coupon from Google Adwords.  I get a couple of jobs a year from Google.  A good return on my $30 investment.  I also get a couple of jobs a year from ptg.org.  That pays for my annual dues.  I'm too expensive to get much business from advertising.

Most of my private clients are either repeat business or referrals from my clients.  They are all pre sold and are glad to pay my fees.

This is what I have taught in my business classes.  Your job is to deputize your clients as your sales force.  Take the time to talk with your clients.  Tell them exactly what you want them to tell their friends about you.  Everyone wants to believe that they have the best of whatever service they are using.  Take the time to hone your presentation.  Tell your clients something special about your work situation.  Make it special enough so that they will repeat it to their friends.  Put the same attention to detail in how you present yourself to your clients as you do into perfecting your piano technician skills.

-------------------------------------------
Carl Lieberman
RPT
Venice CA
310-392-2771
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 17:13
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

Without advancing the discussion on the poor usability of the current PTG site let me say that I get at least a call a week from a customer who found me via the PTG site, and they consistently tell me that they went there because they specifically wanted an RPT to service their piano. Therefore, I think PTG is doing a pretty decent job on their recent efforts to promote PTG and RPT's. Whether that means the public is actually visiting more of the site than just the "Click here to find a Registered Piano Technician" button is moot to me as long as they are finding that button. 

When I was first starting out I had a Google AdWords account. For me it was a total waste of effort and money, and after about a year I did what I could to shut it down. (Not an easy thing to do in a system that deliberately and literally makes it impossible to opt out of this service once you have opted in.) Reason one was the consistent bidding wars on pay-per-click positioning. It just got too expensive for the return. Reason two was because of the client base it was attracting. Mostly bargain hunters who found pianos on Craigslist. NOT the client base I wanting to cultivate. And third, I was pretty much keeping my calendar well booked just from referrals from other customers. And I still do. But I am also fortunate to have secured a relationship with a well respected dealer. Floor tunings and referrals are worth every effort I put in to maintaining that relationship. And if you don't have a relationship with at least one dealer I encourage you to start one.

But don't get me wrong. I think Google AdWords is a great place for just starting out technicians to begin building their client base. Depending on your skill and location it may continue to work for you for years. It just doesn't work for me. I treat Google as a good research tool. And as far as advertising, I treat it just like the phone companies promoted ads in the Yellow Pages. It's not where you go to find a service for the first time so much as it is a place to find a service you have used in the past but whose name you have forgotten. 

I believe that pretty much all of us maintain, at best, something like a 20% to 25% reliable repeat customer base. That other 75% or so is made up of new and referred customers, which is why we are all always seeking new customers. And I firmly believe that the best new customers come from referrals from satisfied existing customers. Go out of your way to keep your existing customers happy and they will reward you with high praise to their friends. Best advertising you can get!


-------------------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 10:48
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

I think that if we want potential clients to come to the PTG web site, we nees to do a much better job of having a useful, informative, easily-navigatable site. Personally, I don't have a link to ptg.com or refer my clients to it for that reason.

I think that the biggest problem is that the site caters both to piano technicians and piano owners, even though we have totally different online needs. If we are serious about having an online presence to encourage people to maintain their pianos, use RPTs, etc., then I think that we need a dedicated site just for that. That kind of site would then be worth putting money into SEO and Google Adwords.

-------------------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianoservice.com
-------------------------------------------

The rules have been significantly changed with the Google Hummingbird update. Semantic search is real and a wonderful improvement, but it does mean one must play an active role in developing a human presence, not just a simple static web site. No more keyword stuffing and backlink purchasing but also no more simple page one metric. The results a user gets depends on the platform they use (mobile, desktop) and where they physically are. SEO consultants who are not adapting might be significantly increasing your risk of being dinged by Google. 

-------------------------------------------
Eric Johnson
[PerARTS LLC]
[Westport] [CT]

203-520-9064
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-16-2014 15:04
From: Thomas Rhea
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

I've received a few Thumbtack 'nibbles' but I've heard nothing from the several quotes that I've sent.  I'm thinking that it is probably a 'phishing' expedition or perhaps from some of the local 'tooners' that are trying to get information about what other technicians are charging for their services.  Like you, Corena, I'm going to cancel my account as well.  It's just not worth it.

-------------------------------------------
Thomas Rhea
Owner and Technician
Rhea Piano Services
Norfolk VA
757-373-0284
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-16-2014 14:02
From: Corena Trader
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

Earlier in the discussion Thumbtack was mentioned.  I signed up for about 10 minutes before deleting my account, there were red flags all over it. I did some research and most of the reviews I read said it was a scam.  I'm curious if anyone has had a positive experience with it? 

-------------------------------------------
Corena Trader
Owner/Technician
Snoqualmie WA
425-281-2849
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 18:12
From: Carl Lieberman
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

Geoff, very well said.  Every year I spend $30 and get a free $100 coupon from Google Adwords.  I get a couple of jobs a year from Google.  A good return on my $30 investment.  I also get a couple of jobs a year from ptg.org.  That pays for my annual dues.  I'm too expensive to get much business from advertising.

Most of my private clients are either repeat business or referrals from my clients.  They are all pre sold and are glad to pay my fees.

This is what I have taught in my business classes.  Your job is to deputize your clients as your sales force.  Take the time to talk with your clients.  Tell them exactly what you want them to tell their friends about you.  Everyone wants to believe that they have the best of whatever service they are using.  Take the time to hone your presentation.  Tell your clients something special about your work situation.  Make it special enough so that they will repeat it to their friends.  Put the same attention to detail in how you present yourself to your clients as you do into perfecting your piano technician skills.

-------------------------------------------
Carl Lieberman
RPT
Venice CA
310-392-2771
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 17:13
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

Without advancing the discussion on the poor usability of the current PTG site let me say that I get at least a call a week from a customer who found me via the PTG site, and they consistently tell me that they went there because they specifically wanted an RPT to service their piano. Therefore, I think PTG is doing a pretty decent job on their recent efforts to promote PTG and RPT's. Whether that means the public is actually visiting more of the site than just the "Click here to find a Registered Piano Technician" button is moot to me as long as they are finding that button. 

When I was first starting out I had a Google AdWords account. For me it was a total waste of effort and money, and after about a year I did what I could to shut it down. (Not an easy thing to do in a system that deliberately and literally makes it impossible to opt out of this service once you have opted in.) Reason one was the consistent bidding wars on pay-per-click positioning. It just got too expensive for the return. Reason two was because of the client base it was attracting. Mostly bargain hunters who found pianos on Craigslist. NOT the client base I wanting to cultivate. And third, I was pretty much keeping my calendar well booked just from referrals from other customers. And I still do. But I am also fortunate to have secured a relationship with a well respected dealer. Floor tunings and referrals are worth every effort I put in to maintaining that relationship. And if you don't have a relationship with at least one dealer I encourage you to start one.

But don't get me wrong. I think Google AdWords is a great place for just starting out technicians to begin building their client base. Depending on your skill and location it may continue to work for you for years. It just doesn't work for me. I treat Google as a good research tool. And as far as advertising, I treat it just like the phone companies promoted ads in the Yellow Pages. It's not where you go to find a service for the first time so much as it is a place to find a service you have used in the past but whose name you have forgotten. 

I believe that pretty much all of us maintain, at best, something like a 20% to 25% reliable repeat customer base. That other 75% or so is made up of new and referred customers, which is why we are all always seeking new customers. And I firmly believe that the best new customers come from referrals from satisfied existing customers. Go out of your way to keep your existing customers happy and they will reward you with high praise to their friends. Best advertising you can get!


-------------------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 10:48
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

I think that if we want potential clients to come to the PTG web site, we nees to do a much better job of having a useful, informative, easily-navigatable site. Personally, I don't have a link to ptg.com or refer my clients to it for that reason.

I think that the biggest problem is that the site caters both to piano technicians and piano owners, even though we have totally different online needs. If we are serious about having an online presence to encourage people to maintain their pianos, use RPTs, etc., then I think that we need a dedicated site just for that. That kind of site would then be worth putting money into SEO and Google Adwords.

-------------------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianoservice.com
-------------------------------------------

Peter, I like your idea...(all of your thoughts, actually; client referrals  ARE our best advertisement)
 And I certainly don't endorse Thumbtack as an ideal way to build a client base, although a few customers have found their way to me
through that means. My point was more that I am wondering why our organization has not made better use of the power and reach available on the internet. Of course doing so would require time and resources, but the benefits seem well worth it for individual members as well as the piano-using public.  Isn't it part of the guild's mission to inform? And be visible? And benefit its members?
-------------------------------------------
Judith Palmer
Bala Cynwyd PA
610-667-9567
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-16-2014 15:14
From: Eric Johnson
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

The rules have been significantly changed with the Google Hummingbird update. Semantic search is real and a wonderful improvement, but it does mean one must play an active role in developing a human presence, not just a simple static web site. No more keyword stuffing and backlink purchasing but also no more simple page one metric. The results a user gets depends on the platform they use (mobile, desktop) and where they physically are. SEO consultants who are not adapting might be significantly increasing your risk of being dinged by Google. 

-------------------------------------------
Eric Johnson
[PerARTS LLC]
[Westport] [CT]

203-520-9064
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-16-2014 15:04
From: Thomas Rhea
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

I've received a few Thumbtack 'nibbles' but I've heard nothing from the several quotes that I've sent.  I'm thinking that it is probably a 'phishing' expedition or perhaps from some of the local 'tooners' that are trying to get information about what other technicians are charging for their services.  Like you, Corena, I'm going to cancel my account as well.  It's just not worth it.

-------------------------------------------
Thomas Rhea
Owner and Technician
Rhea Piano Services
Norfolk VA
757-373-0284
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-16-2014 14:02
From: Corena Trader
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

Earlier in the discussion Thumbtack was mentioned.  I signed up for about 10 minutes before deleting my account, there were red flags all over it. I did some research and most of the reviews I read said it was a scam.  I'm curious if anyone has had a positive experience with it? 

-------------------------------------------
Corena Trader
Owner/Technician
Snoqualmie WA
425-281-2849
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 18:12
From: Carl Lieberman
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

Geoff, very well said.  Every year I spend $30 and get a free $100 coupon from Google Adwords.  I get a couple of jobs a year from Google.  A good return on my $30 investment.  I also get a couple of jobs a year from ptg.org.  That pays for my annual dues.  I'm too expensive to get much business from advertising.

Most of my private clients are either repeat business or referrals from my clients.  They are all pre sold and are glad to pay my fees.

This is what I have taught in my business classes.  Your job is to deputize your clients as your sales force.  Take the time to talk with your clients.  Tell them exactly what you want them to tell their friends about you.  Everyone wants to believe that they have the best of whatever service they are using.  Take the time to hone your presentation.  Tell your clients something special about your work situation.  Make it special enough so that they will repeat it to their friends.  Put the same attention to detail in how you present yourself to your clients as you do into perfecting your piano technician skills.

-------------------------------------------
Carl Lieberman
RPT
Venice CA
310-392-2771
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 17:13
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

Without advancing the discussion on the poor usability of the current PTG site let me say that I get at least a call a week from a customer who found me via the PTG site, and they consistently tell me that they went there because they specifically wanted an RPT to service their piano. Therefore, I think PTG is doing a pretty decent job on their recent efforts to promote PTG and RPT's. Whether that means the public is actually visiting more of the site than just the "Click here to find a Registered Piano Technician" button is moot to me as long as they are finding that button. 

When I was first starting out I had a Google AdWords account. For me it was a total waste of effort and money, and after about a year I did what I could to shut it down. (Not an easy thing to do in a system that deliberately and literally makes it impossible to opt out of this service once you have opted in.) Reason one was the consistent bidding wars on pay-per-click positioning. It just got too expensive for the return. Reason two was because of the client base it was attracting. Mostly bargain hunters who found pianos on Craigslist. NOT the client base I wanting to cultivate. And third, I was pretty much keeping my calendar well booked just from referrals from other customers. And I still do. But I am also fortunate to have secured a relationship with a well respected dealer. Floor tunings and referrals are worth every effort I put in to maintaining that relationship. And if you don't have a relationship with at least one dealer I encourage you to start one.

But don't get me wrong. I think Google AdWords is a great place for just starting out technicians to begin building their client base. Depending on your skill and location it may continue to work for you for years. It just doesn't work for me. I treat Google as a good research tool. And as far as advertising, I treat it just like the phone companies promoted ads in the Yellow Pages. It's not where you go to find a service for the first time so much as it is a place to find a service you have used in the past but whose name you have forgotten. 

I believe that pretty much all of us maintain, at best, something like a 20% to 25% reliable repeat customer base. That other 75% or so is made up of new and referred customers, which is why we are all always seeking new customers. And I firmly believe that the best new customers come from referrals from satisfied existing customers. Go out of your way to keep your existing customers happy and they will reward you with high praise to their friends. Best advertising you can get!


-------------------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2014 10:48
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out

I think that if we want potential clients to come to the PTG web site, we nees to do a much better job of having a useful, informative, easily-navigatable site. Personally, I don't have a link to ptg.com or refer my clients to it for that reason.

I think that the biggest problem is that the site caters both to piano technicians and piano owners, even though we have totally different online needs. If we are serious about having an online presence to encourage people to maintain their pianos, use RPTs, etc., then I think that we need a dedicated site just for that. That kind of site would then be worth putting money into SEO and Google Adwords.

-------------------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianoservice.com
-------------------------------------------

Just to clarify, I agree that we are looking for informed clients, not bargain customers. My point is that if we want to have a web presence geared towards the public, it would behoove us to have a web site geared specifically to the public separate from our web site geared towards piano technicians.

-------------------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianoservice.com
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 3/17/2014 12:49:08 AM
From: Jeepers88@me.com
Subject: RE:PTG Memeberl losing out

Peter, I like your idea...(all of your thoughts, actually; client referrals  ARE our best advertisement)  And I certainly don't endorse Thumbtack as an ideal way to build a client base, although a few customers have found their way to me through that means. My point was more that I am wondering why our organization has not made better use of the power and reach available on the internet. Of course doing so would require time and resources, but the benefits seem well worth it for individual members as well as the piano-using public.  Isn't it part of the guild's mission to inform? And be visible? And benefit its members? ------------------------------------------- Judith Palmer Bala Cynwyd PA 610-667-9567 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 03-16-2014 15:14 From: Eric Johnson Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out The rules have been significantly changed with the Google Hummingbird update. Semantic search is real and a wonderful improvement, but it does mean one must play an active role in developing a human presence, not just a simple static web site. No more keyword stuffing and backlink purchasing but also no more simple page one metric. The results a user gets depends on the platform they use (mobile, desktop) and where they physically are. SEO consultants who are not adapting might be significantly increasing your risk of being dinged by Google.  ------------------------------------------- Eric Johnson [PerARTS LLC] [Westport] [CT] 203-520-9064 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 03-16-2014 15:04 From: Thomas Rhea Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out I've received a few Thumbtack 'nibbles' but I've heard nothing from the several quotes that I've sent.  I'm thinking that it is probably a 'phishing' expedition or perhaps from some of the local 'tooners' that are trying to get information about what other technicians are charging for their services.  Like you, Corena, I'm going to cancel my account as well.  It's just not worth it. ------------------------------------------- Thomas Rhea Owner and Technician Rhea Piano Services Norfolk VA 757-373-0284 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 03-16-2014 14:02 From: Corena Trader Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out Earlier in the discussion Thumbtack was mentioned.  I signed up for about 10 minutes before deleting my account, there were red flags all over it. I did some research and most of the reviews I read said it was a scam.  I'm curious if anyone has had a positive experience with it?  ------------------------------------------- Corena Trader Owner/Technician Snoqualmie WA 425-281-2849 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 03-15-2014 18:12 From: Carl Lieberman Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out Geoff, very well said.  Every year I spend $30 and get a free $100 coupon from Google Adwords.  I get a couple of jobs a year from Google.  A good return on my $30 investment.  I also get a couple of jobs a year from ptg.org.  That pays for my annual dues.  I'm too expensive to get much business from advertising. Most of my private clients are either repeat business or referrals from my clients.  They are all pre sold and are glad to pay my fees. This is what I have taught in my business classes.  Your job is to deputize your clients as your sales force.  Take the time to talk with your clients.  Tell them exactly what you want them to tell their friends about you.  Everyone wants to believe that they have the best of whatever service they are using.  Take the time to hone your presentation.  Tell your clients something special about your work situation.  Make it special enough so that they will repeat it to their friends.  Put the same attention to detail in how you present yourself to your clients as you do into perfecting your piano technician skills. ------------------------------------------- Carl Lieberman RPT Venice CA 310-392-2771 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 03-15-2014 17:13 From: Geoff Sykes Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out Without advancing the discussion on the poor usability of the current PTG site let me say that I get at least a call a week from a customer who found me via the PTG site, and they consistently tell me that they went there because they specifically wanted an RPT to service their piano. Therefore, I think PTG is doing a pretty decent job on their recent efforts to promote PTG and RPT's. Whether that means the public is actually visiting more of the site than just the "Click here to find a Registered Piano Technician" button is moot to me as long as they are finding that button.  When I was first starting out I had a Google AdWords account. For me it was a total waste of effort and money, and after about a year I did what I could to shut it down. (Not an easy thing to do in a system that deliberately and literally makes it impossible to opt out of this service once you have opted in.) Reason one was the consistent bidding wars on pay-per-click positioning. It just got too expensive for the return. Reason two was because of the client base it was attracting. Mostly bargain hunters who found pianos on Craigslist. NOT the client base I wanting to cultivate. And third, I was pretty much keeping my calendar well booked just from referrals from other customers. And I still do. But I am also fortunate to have secured a relationship with a well respected dealer. Floor tunings and referrals are worth every effort I put in to maintaining that relationship. And if you don't have a relationship with at least one dealer I encourage you to start one. But don't get me wrong. I think Google AdWords is a great place for just starting out technicians to begin building their client base. Depending on your skill and location it may continue to work for you for years. It just doesn't work for me. I treat Google as a good research tool. And as far as advertising, I treat it just like the phone companies promoted ads in the Yellow Pages. It's not where you go to find a service for the first time so much as it is a place to find a service you have used in the past but whose name you have forgotten.  I believe that pretty much all of us maintain, at best, something like a 20% to 25% reliable repeat customer base. That other 75% or so is made up of new and referred customers, which is why we are all always seeking new customers. And I firmly believe that the best new customers come from referrals from satisfied existing customers. Go out of your way to keep your existing customers happy and they will reward you with high praise to their friends. Best advertising you can get! ------------------------------------------- Geoff Sykes, RPT Los Angeles CA -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 03-15-2014 10:48 From: Peter Stevenson Subject: PTG Memeberl losing out I think that if we want potential clients to come to the PTG web site, we nees to do a much better job of having a useful, informative, easily-navigatable site. Personally, I don't have a link to ptg.com or refer my clients to it for that reason. I think that the biggest problem is that the site caters both to piano technicians and piano owners, even though we have totally different online needs. If we are serious about having an online presence to encourage people to maintain their pianos, use RPTs, etc., then I think that we need a dedicated site just for that. That kind of site would then be worth putting money into SEO and Google Adwords. ------------------------------------------- Peter Stevenson RPT P.S. Piano Service Prince George BC 250-562-5358 ps@pspianoservice.com -------------------------------------------

This post was removed