Susan,
You are certainly more experienced in this than I am, though my sense had always been that the type and style of music being played has an effect on how the players perceive, and therefore play, the intervals. Slower and more melodic or somber tends more toward the just side of things, whereas more lively pieces could tend toward greater "tampering" with the intervals for various effects. And then of course there is speed and width of vibrato. (I once heard a cellist with a very slow and wide vibrato that at first I thought was weird, but the more I listened, the more I liked it. It was very unique).
My personal style of music (personally composed or otherwise) tends to sound better (to me) with less tempering. Therefore one of my favorite temperaments is Young's 1799 with a 5bps M 3rd. And since I rarely play anything with more than 2 flats or sharps, it keeps me in the harmonious area of the keyboard.
Conversely, almost invariably, when I tune a WT for a client (usually far superior musician than I am), they start to "ooh and ahh" over the fast beating intervals that I would normally stay away from. But then of course they revel in the fact that they now can resolve to consonance, or excite with speed, at will. All the stuff that ET takes away from them (largely).
Just need 4 pianos tuned in various styles to satisfy us. 😊
Pwg
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Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 09-05-2018 00:18
From: Susan Kline
Subject: ... the subjective octave was "stretched" slightly ... about 20 cents on the average ...
Hi, Peter
Fun reasoning.
I haven't found that string players naturally gravitate to just intonation, except fourths, fifths, and octaves. Thirds and sixths we like to play even more fast-beating than ET. The net effect of string intonation is to increse the difference in size of whole tones and semitones, which is the opposite of what ET does.
When I was taking the course, but still in the early days, I decided to try tuning a diatonic scale judging only by my sense of intonation. I did two octaves of a D major scale. I just tuned each note the way I'd tune it by fingering, one after another, moving upward. When I checked, the octaves were good, which indicates that I made the same choices for each octave. Ted Sambell checked it out for me, and he said it was very close to Pythagorean.
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Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
Original Message:
Sent: 09-04-2018 21:55
From: Peter Grey
Subject: ... the subjective octave was "stretched" slightly ... about 20 cents on the average ...
In my very early childhood days of learning to play the cello (after piano lessons ended after one year), I was puzzled by the finger positions on the neck since they are not equally spaced (I was already brainwashed to believe that all half steps were equal from the keyboard training). I knew nothing about just intonation at the time, and still wondered as a teenager playing in the orchestra, why my ear caused me to feel like "that E flat should just be flatter...it sounds better that way".
Only when I started learning historical temperaments and all...it finally hit me why, and I was able to now answer all those questions.
Yes, string players, if left to themselves, will almost always favor just intervals and come as close as they can to achieve it on the fly.
I also found it difficult to play the cello along with the piano. Didn't know why then...do now.
Eventually quit the cello and became a drummer. No need for temperament or just intonation there.
Pwg
------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 09-04-2018 18:49
From: Susan Kline
Subject: ... the subjective octave was "stretched" slightly ... about 20 cents on the average ...
Linus forwarded two sound clips from researchers who were interested in whether violinists tend to stretch octaves sharp, usually about 20 cents. So they checked recordings by famous violinists, and then took a recording by Isaac Stern, and laid in a sine way on top of it. (Franck Sonata).
One of the sound clips was ET with unstretched octaves. It showed very clearly that Stern was definitely stretching his octaves, especially in the high registers. You can plainly hear that in the upper registers the sine wave is further below Stern than in the middle range.
In the second sound clip of Stern from the same recording they overlaid it with an ET sine wave, but the sine wave was also stretched 20 cents. It showed, also very clearly, that Stern was stretching about 20 cents, but it also showed that he wasn't playing in equal temperament -- and most string players don't.
I think making these clips was a very bright idea, and it probably wasn't all that easy to do.
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Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
Original Message:
Sent: 09-04-2018 16:30
From: Peter Grey
Subject: ... the subjective octave was "stretched" slightly ... about 20 cents on the average ...
I am not 100% sure of what I am hearing here. Am I hearing a violinist, or a sine wave, or both? Precisely what is attempting to be shown?
Maybe I'm dense...
Pwg
------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 09-04-2018 00:40
From: Susan Kline
Subject: ... the subjective octave was "stretched" slightly ... about 20 cents on the average ...
These really do say it all -- on two fronts.
First, Stern did play an octave stretch, the higher the octave, the further sharp it went. You wouldn't have to look hard to find violinists from his era who did this. Go earlier, and they did it even more. Early recordings of violin concerti can be interesting listening because the solo violin is usually pitched sharp to the orchestra in any register. It's their way of projecting and standing out.
When I got to go to Banff the year after graduating from the George Brown College course, I listened to a master class featuring a young violinist who played the Carmen Fantasy (with piano, not orchestra). She blew me away, because her top register wasn't pulled high -- to my ear it was smack on pitch, plus being very well in tune. Ravishing, really, and I hadn't heard violinists who did that before. I have since. There is a fashion in playing styles like this.
Second, listening to both versions, it is apparent that violinists do not play in equal temperament -- and on them, it sounds good.
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Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
Original Message:
Sent: 09-04-2018 00:03
From: Linus Liu
Subject: ... the subjective octave was "stretched" slightly ... about 20 cents on the average ...
Subject is an interesting conclusion of a research paper:
Octave discrimination: An experimental confirmation of the "stretched" subjective octave - Peter A. Dobbins and Lola L. Cuddy Department of Psychology, Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada K7L 3N6
If listeners prefer a 1220-cent octave, we should find players (violinists) who play with the 1220-cent octave.
The attached files show a possible find and comparison,
the file with "QS" is Stern's recording played along a
sine tone at 1220-cent octave. The file with "ET",
along a sine tone in ET.