Pianotech

Recently I tuned a baby grand from about 1900, and when I arrived I noticed that there had been felt placed between the first two notes above the break. Both are plain wire.

The owner explained that previous techs were unable to tune a good unison on the lowest note. The reason given was that it was a bridge issue, something to do with poor design combined with the fact that it was the end of the bridge. It didn't matter which wire was muted off, just that one had to be to achieve a good unison. So theoretically it wasn't a situation where changing a string would make a difference. The strings, by the way, had corrosion on them, though they may not be original because the pins looked modern. I observed small cracks on other parts of the bridge, but not at the low end. I've had trouble getting clean unisons out of wound bichords above the break, but not usually plain wire trichords.

So for convenience the right was muted, which of course meant the next higher note would be a bichord as well (apparently it had no issues). The owner thought the two notes sounded fine as bichords, and wanted me to leave as-is.

My question is, is this a typical problem with pianos of this age/size? If he had wanted a solution, is there one? Is it a question of bridge stiffness or placement?

If the strings are indeed fairly old, as evidenced by the corrosion, would it make sense to just restring the first two trichords before assuming it was indeed a bridge problem? Or perhaps applying CA to immobilize the bridge pins?

------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------

Some pictures would be useful as well as the brand and model as well as size. There could be a kink in the string or maybe poor seating at the bridge pins even loose bridge pins. It may be helpful to seat the strings and get some ultra thin CA down into the bridge pin holes.
How bad is the string rust/corrosion ? Perhaps the wrong size wire was used when piano was restrung which new(er) pins indicate. If the owner is happy the way it is so be it. Maybe next visit you can do more about it

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2018 11:19
From: Scott Cole
Subject: unison problems at end of bridge

Recently I tuned a baby grand from about 1900, and when I arrived I noticed that there had been felt placed between the first two notes above the break. Both are plain wire.

The owner explained that previous techs were unable to tune a good unison on the lowest note. The reason given was that it was a bridge issue, something to do with poor design combined with the fact that it was the end of the bridge. It didn't matter which wire was muted off, just that one had to be to achieve a good unison. So theoretically it wasn't a situation where changing a string would make a difference. The strings, by the way, had corrosion on them, though they may not be original because the pins looked modern. I observed small cracks on other parts of the bridge, but not at the low end. I've had trouble getting clean unisons out of wound bichords above the break, but not usually plain wire trichords.

So for convenience the right was muted, which of course meant the next higher note would be a bichord as well (apparently it had no issues). The owner thought the two notes sounded fine as bichords, and wanted me to leave as-is.

My question is, is this a typical problem with pianos of this age/size? If he had wanted a solution, is there one? Is it a question of bridge stiffness or placement?

If the strings are indeed fairly old, as evidenced by the corrosion, would it make sense to just restring the first two trichords before assuming it was indeed a bridge problem? Or perhaps applying CA to immobilize the bridge pins?

------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------

James,
It's a very small Howard, probably around 5'. And maybe not a high-end model--it has a non-shifting action.
So would you say then that the bridge theory is the least likely?

------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2018 11:49
From: James Kelly
Subject: unison problems at end of bridge

Some pictures would be useful as well as the brand and model as well as size. There could be a kink in the string or maybe poor seating at the bridge pins even loose bridge pins. It may be helpful to seat the strings and get some ultra thin CA down into the bridge pin holes.
How bad is the string rust/corrosion ? Perhaps the wrong size wire was used when piano was restrung which new(er) pins indicate. If the owner is happy the way it is so be it. Maybe next visit you can do more about it

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2018 11:19
From: Scott Cole
Subject: unison problems at end of bridge

Recently I tuned a baby grand from about 1900, and when I arrived I noticed that there had been felt placed between the first two notes above the break. Both are plain wire.

The owner explained that previous techs were unable to tune a good unison on the lowest note. The reason given was that it was a bridge issue, something to do with poor design combined with the fact that it was the end of the bridge. It didn't matter which wire was muted off, just that one had to be to achieve a good unison. So theoretically it wasn't a situation where changing a string would make a difference. The strings, by the way, had corrosion on them, though they may not be original because the pins looked modern. I observed small cracks on other parts of the bridge, but not at the low end. I've had trouble getting clean unisons out of wound bichords above the break, but not usually plain wire trichords.

So for convenience the right was muted, which of course meant the next higher note would be a bichord as well (apparently it had no issues). The owner thought the two notes sounded fine as bichords, and wanted me to leave as-is.

My question is, is this a typical problem with pianos of this age/size? If he had wanted a solution, is there one? Is it a question of bridge stiffness or placement?

If the strings are indeed fairly old, as evidenced by the corrosion, would it make sense to just restring the first two trichords before assuming it was indeed a bridge problem? Or perhaps applying CA to immobilize the bridge pins?

------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------

Scott,

Next time you go, clamp a small vise grips on the rear bridge pin of the worst offender and see if it makes any improvement. If so, that argues that at least some of the problem is in the bridge/design and adding weight (and/or a riblet) to the bridge end on the back side may help quite a bit.

If nothing changes with that it would argue in the direction of strings (or something else).

I have improved a few of these nasty little notes by installing a PitchLock string coupler between the nut (V bar) and the tuning pins (NOT in the speaking length). It seems to help unify the errant beating to a more tolerable degree. If you don't have any of these,  try using a wire tie from a bread bag (with paper on). Just twist it up enough to exert a little pressure on the strings (again between the v bar and the tuning pins). You could also try that trick at the other end between the bridge and hitch pins.

If it is bad strings you don't know if it's bad design or bad workmanship (or both). If you're going to change them it would call for a redesign by someone who knows.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2018 12:27
From: Scott Cole
Subject: unison problems at end of bridge

James,
It's a very small Howard, probably around 5'. And maybe not a high-end model--it has a non-shifting action.
So would you say then that the bridge theory is the least likely?

------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2018 11:49
From: James Kelly
Subject: unison problems at end of bridge

Some pictures would be useful as well as the brand and model as well as size. There could be a kink in the string or maybe poor seating at the bridge pins even loose bridge pins. It may be helpful to seat the strings and get some ultra thin CA down into the bridge pin holes.
How bad is the string rust/corrosion ? Perhaps the wrong size wire was used when piano was restrung which new(er) pins indicate. If the owner is happy the way it is so be it. Maybe next visit you can do more about it

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2018 11:19
From: Scott Cole
Subject: unison problems at end of bridge

Recently I tuned a baby grand from about 1900, and when I arrived I noticed that there had been felt placed between the first two notes above the break. Both are plain wire.

The owner explained that previous techs were unable to tune a good unison on the lowest note. The reason given was that it was a bridge issue, something to do with poor design combined with the fact that it was the end of the bridge. It didn't matter which wire was muted off, just that one had to be to achieve a good unison. So theoretically it wasn't a situation where changing a string would make a difference. The strings, by the way, had corrosion on them, though they may not be original because the pins looked modern. I observed small cracks on other parts of the bridge, but not at the low end. I've had trouble getting clean unisons out of wound bichords above the break, but not usually plain wire trichords.

So for convenience the right was muted, which of course meant the next higher note would be a bichord as well (apparently it had no issues). The owner thought the two notes sounded fine as bichords, and wanted me to leave as-is.

My question is, is this a typical problem with pianos of this age/size? If he had wanted a solution, is there one? Is it a question of bridge stiffness or placement?

If the strings are indeed fairly old, as evidenced by the corrosion, would it make sense to just restring the first two trichords before assuming it was indeed a bridge problem? Or perhaps applying CA to immobilize the bridge pins?

------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------

Hi Scott,

I've run into unisons that were totally untunable where the problem turned out to be contaminated strings.
Once on a grand it was a trace of glue where I suspect a piece of velcro used to hold a microphone had fallen off.  This wasn't easy to see under good lighting, in fact I noticed it when I was feeling for kinks in the wire.
Another time on an upright it was a white substance, maybe candle wax or milk.  

I would definitely check to see if all three strings are the same gauge.  If it's awkward getting at the strings to measure with a micrometer or calipers you can cut a notch roughly the width of the wire in a stiff piece of plastic.
Even if it's a loose fit you can wiggle it back and forth to feel for any difference in the fit.
If you do this first you'll have a handy little scraper to clean the glue or whatever off the strings if contamination turns out to be the problem.

Ken Kopp

------------------------------
Ken Kopp
Campbell River BC
250-286-6967
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2018 12:27
From: Scott Cole
Subject: unison problems at end of bridge

James,
It's a very small Howard, probably around 5'. And maybe not a high-end model--it has a non-shifting action.
So would you say then that the bridge theory is the least likely?

------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2018 11:49
From: James Kelly
Subject: unison problems at end of bridge

Some pictures would be useful as well as the brand and model as well as size. There could be a kink in the string or maybe poor seating at the bridge pins even loose bridge pins. It may be helpful to seat the strings and get some ultra thin CA down into the bridge pin holes.
How bad is the string rust/corrosion ? Perhaps the wrong size wire was used when piano was restrung which new(er) pins indicate. If the owner is happy the way it is so be it. Maybe next visit you can do more about it

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2018 11:19
From: Scott Cole
Subject: unison problems at end of bridge

Recently I tuned a baby grand from about 1900, and when I arrived I noticed that there had been felt placed between the first two notes above the break. Both are plain wire.

The owner explained that previous techs were unable to tune a good unison on the lowest note. The reason given was that it was a bridge issue, something to do with poor design combined with the fact that it was the end of the bridge. It didn't matter which wire was muted off, just that one had to be to achieve a good unison. So theoretically it wasn't a situation where changing a string would make a difference. The strings, by the way, had corrosion on them, though they may not be original because the pins looked modern. I observed small cracks on other parts of the bridge, but not at the low end. I've had trouble getting clean unisons out of wound bichords above the break, but not usually plain wire trichords.

So for convenience the right was muted, which of course meant the next higher note would be a bichord as well (apparently it had no issues). The owner thought the two notes sounded fine as bichords, and wanted me to leave as-is.

My question is, is this a typical problem with pianos of this age/size? If he had wanted a solution, is there one? Is it a question of bridge stiffness or placement?

If the strings are indeed fairly old, as evidenced by the corrosion, would it make sense to just restring the first two trichords before assuming it was indeed a bridge problem? Or perhaps applying CA to immobilize the bridge pins?

------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------

You cannot fix the fundamental problem. That goes to the basic design of the piano and the problem of "foreshortening." (I've written about this in articles published in the PTG Journal -- look it up.)

What you seem to have is an extreme example of what happens when foreshortening and bad scaling come together in the worst possible way. You can (possibly) relieve the situation using a combination of auxiliary ribs and mass-loading. 

The best solution might be to convert a few of those lowest notes to wrapped bi-chords rather plain steel tri-chords. If you've not done this as yet it might be wise to consult with someone who has.

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2018 11:19
From: Scott Cole
Subject: unison problems at end of bridge

Recently I tuned a baby grand from about 1900, and when I arrived I noticed that there had been felt placed between the first two notes above the break. Both are plain wire.

The owner explained that previous techs were unable to tune a good unison on the lowest note. The reason given was that it was a bridge issue, something to do with poor design combined with the fact that it was the end of the bridge. It didn't matter which wire was muted off, just that one had to be to achieve a good unison. So theoretically it wasn't a situation where changing a string would make a difference. The strings, by the way, had corrosion on them, though they may not be original because the pins looked modern. I observed small cracks on other parts of the bridge, but not at the low end. I've had trouble getting clean unisons out of wound bichords above the break, but not usually plain wire trichords.

So for convenience the right was muted, which of course meant the next higher note would be a bichord as well (apparently it had no issues). The owner thought the two notes sounded fine as bichords, and wanted me to leave as-is.

My question is, is this a typical problem with pianos of this age/size? If he had wanted a solution, is there one? Is it a question of bridge stiffness or placement?

If the strings are indeed fairly old, as evidenced by the corrosion, would it make sense to just restring the first two trichords before assuming it was indeed a bridge problem? Or perhaps applying CA to immobilize the bridge pins?

------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------