Pianotech

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again. 

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability. 

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall. 




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Get it into tunable condition before any action work. If it can't be tuned, what good is it. When I was confronted with this scenario in a church, I first let the tension down a half turn overall. Then proceeded to wrench the pins back and forth, another half-turn slack/half-turn tight; repeat. I made 30 half-turns in the treble and 20 in the bass. It is a pleasure to tune now and is stable. To add to the tuning instability, the pins were not driven deep enough so there was excessive flag poling and torsion in the pin. Before I proceeded with the back-and-forth, I drove the pins in to their proper height. Plan on 8-12 hours of wrenching, chipping and tuning. It's a good upper body workout.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Geoff,

You should absolutely try what Jon suggests for your jumpy tuning pins before even considering substance abuse.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 07:24
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Get it into tunable condition before any action work. If it can't be tuned, what good is it. When I was confronted with this scenario in a church, I first let the tension down a half turn overall. Then proceeded to wrench the pins back and forth, another half-turn slack/half-turn tight; repeat. I made 30 half-turns in the treble and 20 in the bass. It is a pleasure to tune now and is stable. To add to the tuning instability, the pins were not driven deep enough so there was excessive flag poling and torsion in the pin. Before I proceeded with the back-and-forth, I drove the pins in to their proper height. Plan on 8-12 hours of wrenching, chipping and tuning. It's a good upper body workout.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

It's a good upper body workout.

On paper, maybe, but unless you're doing it everyday, I'd say NOT.
Can you read a book or watch some movies while you're doing it?  Well then, maybe.
What's your best guess as to the original torque, the torque after driving pins, and the final torque, after work-out?
Without violating the 11th commandment with regard to discussing pricing (which means you have to be creative in responding),what could be a reasonable remuneration for 10 hours of this sort of work, and what would the difference be compared to the cost of restringing with correct pins?

As for Alan E's admonishment:
You should absolutely try what Jon suggests for your jumpy tuning pins before even considering substance abuse.
the latter could be the most economical, if selected and administered carefully, as Geoff would simply stop caring.

------------------------------
David Skolnik [RPT]
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 07:24
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Get it into tunable condition before any action work. If it can't be tuned, what good is it. When I was confronted with this scenario in a church, I first let the tension down a half turn overall. Then proceeded to wrench the pins back and forth, another half-turn slack/half-turn tight; repeat. I made 30 half-turns in the treble and 20 in the bass. It is a pleasure to tune now and is stable. To add to the tuning instability, the pins were not driven deep enough so there was excessive flag poling and torsion in the pin. Before I proceeded with the back-and-forth, I drove the pins in to their proper height. Plan on 8-12 hours of wrenching, chipping and tuning. It's a good upper body workout.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I have found if you are talking pieces of the job and cost,, the customer is interested in doing the work. 

As soon as you present the not to exceed figure with all issues dealt with,, the talking stops.

Give them the total present, and the total possible

------------------------------
Keith Roberts
owner
Hathaway Pines CA
209-728-2163
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Alan,

Substance abuse...👍🤣😓😅


Geoff,

I would try Jon's approach on a few pins first just to demonstrate to myself that it will in fact do the trick. Then have coffee and muffins available on the day you tackle it.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 10:40
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

I have found if you are talking pieces of the job and cost,, the customer is interested in doing the work.

As soon as you present the not to exceed figure with all issues dealt with,, the talking stops.

Give them the total present, and the total possible

------------------------------
Keith Roberts
owner
Hathaway Pines CA
209-728-2163

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

D'Oh! I, of course, meant Jumpy Tuning Pins. Unfortunately I can't change the subject line once posted so thank you all for understanding what I meant.

Lot's of great advice here. I'll have to schedule this work on a Friday so I can have the weekend to recover. Visit my chiropractor and get a massage. And now that it's legal, at least here in California, we can't call it substance abuse. Time to break out my headphones and make a playlist.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

How about what Jim I. made for this:
http://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer#bm1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 11:44
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

D'Oh! I, of course, meant Jumpy Tuning Pins. Unfortunately I can't change the subject line once posted so thank you all for understanding what I meant.

Lot's of great advice here. I'll have to schedule this work on a Friday so I can have the weekend to recover. Visit my chiropractor and get a massage. And now that it's legal, at least here in California, we can't call it substance abuse. Time to break out my headphones and make a playlist.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Jon --

Thank you for the link to that discussion. That is the recent discussion I was remembering but could not find, (because I was stupidly looking for the wrong thing).

Gonna borrow a torque wrench before I dig in to see just what I'm up against.

I like the idea of backing the pins out a bit and then pounding them back in to sort of deliberately wear the hole a bit. Instead of exhaustive upper back stress, (unless I have that special nine iron tuning hammer), I think this would also take a lot less time. I think I'll try a couple of strings with each technique to see if either one is actually worth the effort. 

Thanks for all the help on this everyone.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 13:41
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

How about what Jim I. made for this:
http://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer#bm1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 11:44
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

D'Oh! I, of course, meant Jumpy Tuning Pins. Unfortunately I can't change the subject line once posted so thank you all for understanding what I meant.

Lot's of great advice here. I'll have to schedule this work on a Friday so I can have the weekend to recover. Visit my chiropractor and get a massage. And now that it's legal, at least here in California, we can't call it substance abuse. Time to break out my headphones and make a playlist.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

In order to back the pin out far enough, you'd have to remove the coil. Way too much work. You might as well take them out and ream the hole for a new pin. What a mess.

Repetitive half-turns are not that hard. You develop a rhythm. Once the pins have all been backed off a half-turn. Place the lever at 9:00. Pull with your right hand to 6:00, while not breaking motion switch to pushing with your left hand to 3:00. Pull with your left hand to 6:00, while not breaking motion switch to pushing with your right hand to 9:00. Repeat as needed. Take a break every now and then...you'll know when :-)

A lever length that is long will make is easier to turn but you'll also have to traverse through more distance. An extension lever at it's max is sufficient. I used one with about a 12" handle. I hope it's air conditioned, you'll work up a sweat.

The piano I worked on was a S&S M. While the tension was down, I added counter bearing aliquots to the tenor section.
http://my.ptg.org/viewdocument/counter-bearing-aloquots
This was not the piano at the church. I also make punchings to slip under the newly-made NSL.
------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 20:51
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Jon --

Thank you for the link to that discussion. That is the recent discussion I was remembering but could not find, (because I was stupidly looking for the wrong thing).

Gonna borrow a torque wrench before I dig in to see just what I'm up against.

I like the idea of backing the pins out a bit and then pounding them back in to sort of deliberately wear the hole a bit. Instead of exhaustive upper back stress, (unless I have that special nine iron tuning hammer), I think this would also take a lot less time. I think I'll try a couple of strings with each technique to see if either one is actually worth the effort.

Thanks for all the help on this everyone.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 13:41
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

How about what Jim I. made for this:
http://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer#bm1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 11:44
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

D'Oh! I, of course, meant Jumpy Tuning Pins. Unfortunately I can't change the subject line once posted so thank you all for understanding what I meant.

Lot's of great advice here. I'll have to schedule this work on a Friday so I can have the weekend to recover. Visit my chiropractor and get a massage. And now that it's legal, at least here in California, we can't call it substance abuse. Time to break out my headphones and make a playlist.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Jon,

Did you also explain exactly HOW you made those? I have forgotten. Or just purchased half-round brass and cut to length...?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 07:36
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

In order to back the pin out far enough, you'd have to remove the coil. Way too much work. You might as well take them out and ream the hole for a new pin. What a mess.

Repetitive half-turns are not that hard. You develop a rhythm. Once the pins have all been backed off a half-turn. Place the lever at 9:00. Pull with your right hand to 6:00, while not breaking motion switch to pushing with your left hand to 3:00. Pull with your left hand to 6:00, while not breaking motion switch to pushing with your right hand to 9:00. Repeat as needed. Take a break every now and then...you'll know when :-)

A lever length that is long will make is easier to turn but you'll also have to traverse through more distance. An extension lever at it's max is sufficient. I used one with about a 12" handle. I hope it's air conditioned, you'll work up a sweat.

The piano I worked on was a S&S M. While the tension was down, I added counter bearing aliquots to the tenor section.
http://my.ptg.org/viewdocument/counter-bearing-aloquots
This was not the piano at the church. I also make punchings to slip under the newly-made NSL.
------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 20:51
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Jon --

Thank you for the link to that discussion. That is the recent discussion I was remembering but could not find, (because I was stupidly looking for the wrong thing).

Gonna borrow a torque wrench before I dig in to see just what I'm up against.

I like the idea of backing the pins out a bit and then pounding them back in to sort of deliberately wear the hole a bit. Instead of exhaustive upper back stress, (unless I have that special nine iron tuning hammer), I think this would also take a lot less time. I think I'll try a couple of strings with each technique to see if either one is actually worth the effort.

Thanks for all the help on this everyone.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 13:41
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

How about what Jim I. made for this:
http://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer#bm1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 11:44
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

D'Oh! I, of course, meant Jumpy Tuning Pins. Unfortunately I can't change the subject line once posted so thank you all for understanding what I meant.

Lot's of great advice here. I'll have to schedule this work on a Friday so I can have the weekend to recover. Visit my chiropractor and get a massage. And now that it's legal, at least here in California, we can't call it substance abuse. Time to break out my headphones and make a playlist.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I purchased the half-round stock from R. J. Leahy (now a discontinued item) and cut to length.

But let's not get off on a tangent and try to keep it on topic.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 09:05
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Jon,

Did you also explain exactly HOW you made those? I have forgotten. Or just purchased half-round brass and cut to length...?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 07:36
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

In order to back the pin out far enough, you'd have to remove the coil. Way too much work. You might as well take them out and ream the hole for a new pin. What a mess.

Repetitive half-turns are not that hard. You develop a rhythm. Once the pins have all been backed off a half-turn. Place the lever at 9:00. Pull with your right hand to 6:00, while not breaking motion switch to pushing with your left hand to 3:00. Pull with your left hand to 6:00, while not breaking motion switch to pushing with your right hand to 9:00. Repeat as needed. Take a break every now and then...you'll know when :-)

A lever length that is long will make is easier to turn but you'll also have to traverse through more distance. An extension lever at it's max is sufficient. I used one with about a 12" handle. I hope it's air conditioned, you'll work up a sweat.

The piano I worked on was a S&S M. While the tension was down, I added counter bearing aliquots to the tenor section.
http://my.ptg.org/viewdocument/counter-bearing-aloquots
This was not the piano at the church. I also make punchings to slip under the newly-made NSL.
------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 20:51
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Jon --

Thank you for the link to that discussion. That is the recent discussion I was remembering but could not find, (because I was stupidly looking for the wrong thing).

Gonna borrow a torque wrench before I dig in to see just what I'm up against.

I like the idea of backing the pins out a bit and then pounding them back in to sort of deliberately wear the hole a bit. Instead of exhaustive upper back stress, (unless I have that special nine iron tuning hammer), I think this would also take a lot less time. I think I'll try a couple of strings with each technique to see if either one is actually worth the effort.

Thanks for all the help on this everyone.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 13:41
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

How about what Jim I. made for this:
http://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer#bm1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 11:44
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

D'Oh! I, of course, meant Jumpy Tuning Pins. Unfortunately I can't change the subject line once posted so thank you all for understanding what I meant.

Lot's of great advice here. I'll have to schedule this work on a Friday so I can have the weekend to recover. Visit my chiropractor and get a massage. And now that it's legal, at least here in California, we can't call it substance abuse. Time to break out my headphones and make a playlist.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Jon --

Thanks for the method description. I can see how this would make using body weight, rather than strength, a much more efficient way to pull this off. This is good. Would you have any estimate of how many hours, or days, I might expect to devote to this fix?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 07:36
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

In order to back the pin out far enough, you'd have to remove the coil. Way too much work. You might as well take them out and ream the hole for a new pin. What a mess.

Repetitive half-turns are not that hard. You develop a rhythm. Once the pins have all been backed off a half-turn. Place the lever at 9:00. Pull with your right hand to 6:00, while not breaking motion switch to pushing with your left hand to 3:00. Pull with your left hand to 6:00, while not breaking motion switch to pushing with your right hand to 9:00. Repeat as needed. Take a break every now and then...you'll know when :-)

A lever length that is long will make is easier to turn but you'll also have to traverse through more distance. An extension lever at it's max is sufficient. I used one with about a 12" handle. I hope it's air conditioned, you'll work up a sweat.

The piano I worked on was a S&S M. While the tension was down, I added counter bearing aliquots to the tenor section.
http://my.ptg.org/viewdocument/counter-bearing-aloquots
This was not the piano at the church. I also make punchings to slip under the newly-made NSL.
------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 20:51
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Jon --

Thank you for the link to that discussion. That is the recent discussion I was remembering but could not find, (because I was stupidly looking for the wrong thing).

Gonna borrow a torque wrench before I dig in to see just what I'm up against.

I like the idea of backing the pins out a bit and then pounding them back in to sort of deliberately wear the hole a bit. Instead of exhaustive upper back stress, (unless I have that special nine iron tuning hammer), I think this would also take a lot less time. I think I'll try a couple of strings with each technique to see if either one is actually worth the effort.

Thanks for all the help on this everyone.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 13:41
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

How about what Jim I. made for this:
http://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer#bm1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 11:44
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

D'Oh! I, of course, meant Jumpy Tuning Pins. Unfortunately I can't change the subject line once posted so thank you all for understanding what I meant.

Lot's of great advice here. I'll have to schedule this work on a Friday so I can have the weekend to recover. Visit my chiropractor and get a massage. And now that it's legal, at least here in California, we can't call it substance abuse. Time to break out my headphones and make a playlist.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

8~12 hours it depends on how much wrenching you have to do and how fast you are at chipping and tuning. Notice where the beckets generally are so you can bring it back to relative pitch without listening. Then there's coil lifting and retightening them. Squeeze the becket in and rotate counter-clockwise (4 times) to coax the coil around the pin. Tap the coils square, space to the string cuts in the hammers. tap the loops down on the hitch pins. Chip, chip, chip, etc. If you have any ambition left, remove the natural curve from the wires at the bridge and from termination. Tune, tune, tune.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 12:40
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Jon --

Thanks for the method description. I can see how this would make using body weight, rather than strength, a much more efficient way to pull this off. This is good. Would you have any estimate of how many hours, or days, I might expect to devote to this fix?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 07:36
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

In order to back the pin out far enough, you'd have to remove the coil. Way too much work. You might as well take them out and ream the hole for a new pin. What a mess.

Repetitive half-turns are not that hard. You develop a rhythm. Once the pins have all been backed off a half-turn. Place the lever at 9:00. Pull with your right hand to 6:00, while not breaking motion switch to pushing with your left hand to 3:00. Pull with your left hand to 6:00, while not breaking motion switch to pushing with your right hand to 9:00. Repeat as needed. Take a break every now and then...you'll know when :-)

A lever length that is long will make is easier to turn but you'll also have to traverse through more distance. An extension lever at it's max is sufficient. I used one with about a 12" handle. I hope it's air conditioned, you'll work up a sweat.

The piano I worked on was a S&S M. While the tension was down, I added counter bearing aliquots to the tenor section.
http://my.ptg.org/viewdocument/counter-bearing-aloquots
This was not the piano at the church. I also make punchings to slip under the newly-made NSL.
------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 20:51
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Jon --

Thank you for the link to that discussion. That is the recent discussion I was remembering but could not find, (because I was stupidly looking for the wrong thing).

Gonna borrow a torque wrench before I dig in to see just what I'm up against.

I like the idea of backing the pins out a bit and then pounding them back in to sort of deliberately wear the hole a bit. Instead of exhaustive upper back stress, (unless I have that special nine iron tuning hammer), I think this would also take a lot less time. I think I'll try a couple of strings with each technique to see if either one is actually worth the effort.

Thanks for all the help on this everyone.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 13:41
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

How about what Jim I. made for this:
http://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer#bm1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 11:44
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

D'Oh! I, of course, meant Jumpy Tuning Pins. Unfortunately I can't change the subject line once posted so thank you all for understanding what I meant.

Lot's of great advice here. I'll have to schedule this work on a Friday so I can have the weekend to recover. Visit my chiropractor and get a massage. And now that it's legal, at least here in California, we can't call it substance abuse. Time to break out my headphones and make a playlist.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I have heard heating the tuning pin with a soldering iron will cause it to expand.  Supposedly when it cools the will be looser.

------------------------------
Robert Callaghan
Reno NV
775-287-2140
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 07:36
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

In order to back the pin out far enough, you'd have to remove the coil. Way too much work. You might as well take them out and ream the hole for a new pin. What a mess.

Repetitive half-turns are not that hard. You develop a rhythm. Once the pins have all been backed off a half-turn. Place the lever at 9:00. Pull with your right hand to 6:00, while not breaking motion switch to pushing with your left hand to 3:00. Pull with your left hand to 6:00, while not breaking motion switch to pushing with your right hand to 9:00. Repeat as needed. Take a break every now and then...you'll know when :-)

A lever length that is long will make is easier to turn but you'll also have to traverse through more distance. An extension lever at it's max is sufficient. I used one with about a 12" handle. I hope it's air conditioned, you'll work up a sweat.

The piano I worked on was a S&S M. While the tension was down, I added counter bearing aliquots to the tenor section.
http://my.ptg.org/viewdocument/counter-bearing-aloquots
This was not the piano at the church. I also make punchings to slip under the newly-made NSL.
------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 20:51
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Jon --

Thank you for the link to that discussion. That is the recent discussion I was remembering but could not find, (because I was stupidly looking for the wrong thing).

Gonna borrow a torque wrench before I dig in to see just what I'm up against.

I like the idea of backing the pins out a bit and then pounding them back in to sort of deliberately wear the hole a bit. Instead of exhaustive upper back stress, (unless I have that special nine iron tuning hammer), I think this would also take a lot less time. I think I'll try a couple of strings with each technique to see if either one is actually worth the effort.

Thanks for all the help on this everyone.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 13:41
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

How about what Jim I. made for this:
http://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer#bm1050e96a-6878-420f-b8af-8dc7d43555df

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2018 11:44
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

D'Oh! I, of course, meant Jumpy Tuning Pins. Unfortunately I can't change the subject line once posted so thank you all for understanding what I meant.

Lot's of great advice here. I'll have to schedule this work on a Friday so I can have the weekend to recover. Visit my chiropractor and get a massage. And now that it's legal, at least here in California, we can't call it substance abuse. Time to break out my headphones and make a playlist.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I know I'm getting in on this late, but wouldn't it at least be worth a try to put Protek on one pin and see what happens? Considering the other option of 8-12 hours of work, which may well be the best course of action, it just seems to me that to experiment on one pin would at least be worth a try...

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
www.thattuningguy.com
Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & Easy Piano Tuner user
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I doubt Protek will migrate the length of the pin. Then it might be sporadic in its effectiveness, if at all. Experiment on your own piano.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 14:20
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works.

Geoff Sykes,  08-13-2018 22:56

I know I'm getting in on this late, but wouldn't it at least be worth a try to put Protek on one pin and see what happens? Considering the other option of 8-12 hours of work, which may well be the best course of action, it just seems to me that to experiment on one pin would at least be worth a try...

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
www.thattuningguy.com
Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & Easy Piano Tuner user

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

BTW, the word Jump is not even a close accurate description. When there is a loss of torque, it's called a free rotational acceleration in physics.
-chris

------------------------------
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it".

chernobieffpiano.com
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 14:28
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

I doubt Protek will migrate the length of the pin. Then it might be sporadic in its effectiveness, if at all. Experiment on your own piano.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 14:20
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works.

Geoff Sykes,  08-13-2018 22:56

I know I'm getting in on this late, but wouldn't it at least be worth a try to put Protek on one pin and see what happens? Considering the other option of 8-12 hours of work, which may well be the best course of action, it just seems to me that to experiment on one pin would at least be worth a try...

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
www.thattuningguy.com
Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & Easy Piano Tuner user

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

So, you've never experimented on someone else's piano? How do we learn anything without at least a little experimentation? The first pianos I experimented with CA glue on the pins (many years ago now) were someone else's piano. They were cases where it couldn't hurt, since the pin was so loose. I discovered it worked, and I was prepared to deal with the consequences if it failed. I just don't see one tuning pin as a big risk. But, in this case, it's up to Geoff to decide what he wants to do.

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
www.thattuningguy.com
Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & Easy Piano Tuner user
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 14:28
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

I doubt Protek will migrate the length of the pin. Then it might be sporadic in its effectiveness, if at all. Experiment on your own piano.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 14:20
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works.

Geoff Sykes,  08-13-2018 22:56

I know I'm getting in on this late, but wouldn't it at least be worth a try to put Protek on one pin and see what happens? Considering the other option of 8-12 hours of work, which may well be the best course of action, it just seems to me that to experiment on one pin would at least be worth a try...

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
www.thattuningguy.com
Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & Easy Piano Tuner user

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I prefer to have control over the process. There is none when dousing with a lubricant where the end result could be a failure requiring a new pin block; are you prepared to accept that consequence? Using the pin to ream the hole is a proven procedure with positive consequences.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 22:48
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

I doubt Protek will migrate the length of the pin. Then it might be sporadic in its effectiveness, if at all. Experiment on your own piano.

Jon Page,  08-15-2018 14:28

So, you've never experimented on someone else's piano? How do we learn anything without at least a little experimentation? The first pianos I experimented with CA glue on the pins (many years ago now) were someone else's piano. They were cases where it couldn't hurt, since the pin was so loose. I discovered it worked, and I was prepared to deal with the consequences if it failed. I just don't see one tuning pin as a big risk. But, in this case, it's up to Geoff to decide what he wants to do.

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
www.thattuningguy.com
Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & Easy Piano Tuner user

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 14:28
From: Jon Page
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

I doubt Protek will migrate the length of the pin. Then it might be sporadic in its effectiveness, if at all. Experiment on your own piano.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 14:20
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works.

Geoff Sykes,  08-13-2018 22:56

I know I'm getting in on this late, but wouldn't it at least be worth a try to put Protek on one pin and see what happens? Considering the other option of 8-12 hours of work, which may well be the best course of action, it just seems to me that to experiment on one pin would at least be worth a try...

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
www.thattuningguy.com
Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & Easy Piano Tuner user

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I have tried dipping a pin in teflon powder before driving, into a tight hole.  Its amazing how a little reduction of friction changes the torque and feel. I will not try it again, though. Mushy feel and torque, despite a tight hole on te edge of too loose.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 14:20
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works.

Geoff Sykes,  08-13-2018 22:56

I know I'm getting in on this late, but wouldn't it at least be worth a try to put Protek on one pin and see what happens? Considering the other option of 8-12 hours of work, which may well be the best course of action, it just seems to me that to experiment on one pin would at least be worth a try...

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
www.thattuningguy.com
Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & Easy Piano Tuner user

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

FRA pins...frapins...I have a case of frapins.  😉

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 21:09
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

I have tried dipping a pin in teflon powder before driving, into a tight hole.  Its amazing how a little reduction of friction changes the torque and feel. I will not try it again, though. Mushy feel and torque, despite a tight hole on te edge of too loose.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2018 14:20
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works.

Geoff Sykes,  08-13-2018 22:56

I know I'm getting in on this late, but wouldn't it at least be worth a try to put Protek on one pin and see what happens? Considering the other option of 8-12 hours of work, which may well be the best course of action, it just seems to me that to experiment on one pin would at least be worth a try...

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
www.thattuningguy.com
Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & Easy Piano Tuner user

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Jumpy Key Pins - slight return

Baldwin   M   yr:1962

I'll try to make this brief:

Mom was theoretically a piano teacher. She died and left the piano to her daughter. Daughter only had it long enough to donate it to their church in moms name. The church took it before having it looked at, even after I told them not to. By the time I saw it the commemorative brass plaque had already been attached to the fallboard. The piano sits proudly in the HUGE Sanctuary, (replacing a very nice 1975 Yamaha U3 that I did a lot of work on, and that now sits in the corner). It was unplayable.

Upon delivery to the church one leg collapsed and broke. This also took out the pedal lyre which upon inspection showed signs of having been broken multiple times before. Movers repaired the broken leg before I ever saw it. I had the fragile decorative pedal lyre re-engineered and rebuilt. It's not going to break ever again.

I'll skip over the other work that there is much of, and which it desperately needs but does not deserve, and go straight to the chase. Piano was apparently restrung several years ago. Newer looking pins and strings. But the pins are just so incredibly tight and jumpy that tuning is practically impossible. Certainly not a tuning that I could pretend would be stable anyway. My experience from having come upon jumpy pins that were the result of CA treatment has been that they usually feel crunchy. These feel, to my limited knowledge in this particular department, like they are too big and/or the walls may be glazed. After enough pressure they almost squeak when they finally break friction and jump.

I've read through the archives here and found several potential solutions. One of which involves the use of Protek, which I would not attempt unless someone here can honestly say they've tried it and it works. One of them involves simply easing the tuning down a bit and then turning the pins back and forth several times, slowly, in an effort to wear out the hole a bit. The rest involved removing the pins, a route I'm really not prepared to go, at a cost that I'm sure the customer would balk at. But then I could be wrong because in spite of my recommendation that they not spend any more money on this beast they are now asking me to do some of the action work it needs in order to make it easier to play, and approach the tuning pin problem so that it might be tuned with a bit more accuracy and stability.

(- sigh -)

Looking for a slight return on this subject of tight tuning pin fixes that won't cause the mountain to fall.




------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------