Pianotech

Since it is so far confined to a few notes, I'd say that gage faulty wire.   I was pulling a Wurly spinet up and all the 16 ½ wire broke.  After wrestling with the piano I told the owner that tuning it was like hitting a stick on a chainlink fence.

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Regards,

Jon Page
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-25-2018 12:03
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Baldwin breaking strings.

So I am working on this Baldwin Acrosonic spinet today. Serial number dates 1960, but it looks much newer. It had not been tuned in decades. 150 cents flat. Started to pull it up to pitch in the midrange first, knowing that plates are more prone to break if pitch raised that much starting from note one. I got to about C#5 and BANG!. Broken wire. Okay, it's not the end of the piano. Both sides of the wire were on that note, leaving only one. Continued to the next string - BANG. Now there are no strings left on that note and I'm gonna have to pull the drop action. My day just got much worse. Since I needed to go ahead and pitch raise, what the heck. More strings might break but I'm only pulling the action once. Next note, D5. BANG!. What's going on? I stopped working on the piano after three consecutive broken wires in the middle octave and explained to the customer I need to ask smarter guys about this. Capo looks okay. Wire is breaking at tuning pins. Looks like someone has been monkeying with the srews on the pressure bar because it and a couple of screw slots are gouged. I'm thinking the pressure bar has been screwed in too far creating acute bearing angle. Any thoughts?

Hi Dave:
It would be my guess also. I just don't know how I would know exactly how to set the pressure bar to where it might have been. I'd try adding a little bit of lubricant on the bar. And also see if new string replacements would tend to break in the same way. If it was possible, I'd try to tie a new string to the old ones (saves taking the action out). Even tying one string you would be able to see if the wire it too brittle. If it is, it will break again after being tied and pulled to pitch.
I feel your pain.
Paul McCloud
San Diego



Dave Conte:

So I am working on this Baldwin Acrosonic spinet today. Serial number dates 1960, but it looks much newer. It had not been tuned in decades. 150 cents flat. Started to pull it up to pitch in the midrange first, knowing that plates are more prone to break if pitch raised that much starting from note one. I got to about C#5 and BANG!. Broken wire. Okay, it's not the end of the piano. Both sides of the wire were on that note, leaving only one. Continued to the next string - BANG . Now there are no strings left on that note and I'm gonna have to pull the drop action. My day just got much worse. Since I needed to go ahead and pitch raise, what the heck. More strings might break but I'm only pulling the action once. Next note, D5. BANG!. What's going on? I stopped working on the piano after three consecutive broken wires in the middle octave and explained to the customer I need to ask smarter guys about this. Capo looks okay. Wire is breaking at tuning pins. Looks like someone has been monkeying with the srews on the pressure bar because it and a couple of screw slots are gouged. I'm thinking the pressure bar has been screwed in too far creating acute bearing angle. Any thoughts?


Original Message------

So I am working on this Baldwin Acrosonic spinet today. Serial number dates 1960, but it looks much newer. It had not been tuned in decades. 150 cents flat. Started to pull it up to pitch in the midrange first, knowing that plates are more prone to break if pitch raised that much starting from note one. I got to about C#5 and BANG!. Broken wire. Okay, it's not the end of the piano. Both sides of the wire were on that note, leaving only one. Continued to the next string - BANG. Now there are no strings left on that note and I'm gonna have to pull the drop action. My day just got much worse. Since I needed to go ahead and pitch raise, what the heck. More strings might break but I'm only pulling the action once. Next note, D5. BANG!. What's going on? I stopped working on the piano after three consecutive broken wires in the middle octave and explained to the customer I need to ask smarter guys about this. Capo looks okay. Wire is breaking at tuning pins. Looks like someone has been monkeying with the srews on the pressure bar because it and a couple of screw slots are gouged. I'm thinking the pressure bar has been screwed in too far creating acute bearing angle. Any thoughts?

Lube yes & tap, tap, tap.
Original Message:
Sent: 08-25-2018 12:03
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Baldwin breaking strings.

So I am working on this Baldwin Acrosonic spinet today. Serial number dates 1960, but it looks much newer. It had not been tuned in decades. 150 cents flat. Started to pull it up to pitch in the midrange first, knowing that plates are more prone to break if pitch raised that much starting from note one. I got to about C#5 and BANG!. Broken wire. Okay, it's not the end of the piano. Both sides of the wire were on that note, leaving only one. Continued to the next string - BANG. Now there are no strings left on that note and I'm gonna have to pull the drop action. My day just got much worse. Since I needed to go ahead and pitch raise, what the heck. More strings might break but I'm only pulling the action once. Next note, D5. BANG!. What's going on? I stopped working on the piano after three consecutive broken wires in the middle octave and explained to the customer I need to ask smarter guys about this. Capo looks okay. Wire is breaking at tuning pins. Looks like someone has been monkeying with the srews on the pressure bar because it and a couple of screw slots are gouged. I'm thinking the pressure bar has been screwed in too far creating acute bearing angle. Any thoughts?

Hi Dave

You are fighting what I would call a definite losing, uphill battle. Just to replace those broken strings is going to take you hours of work. And then after all that, are you going to return a few times and pull them up to pitch???

This would be my approach:
Explain to the client that labor beyond tuning is, let’s say, $100 hourly. Within the time it would take for you to remove the action and replace the strings, and reinstall the action, they would far exceed the value of the instrument. And it’s better for them to take that money and put it into a decent used piano.
I would let them know that you are happy to assist them in finding a replacement piano, (you can send them Craigslist listings or email them links to local piano stores). And recommend they have a tech look at it before buying “even if it’s not me” to make sure it can hold a tuning, isn’t filled with evidence of mice, etc.
And then I would tell them “so for today let’s only go with the minimum appointment fee, and I’m really sorry that your piano can’t accept a tuning.”

Good luck!
Elizabeth


Original Message------

So I am working on this Baldwin Acrosonic spinet today. Serial number dates 1960, but it looks much newer. It had not been tuned in decades. 150 cents flat. Started to pull it up to pitch in the midrange first, knowing that plates are more prone to break if pitch raised that much starting from note one. I got to about C#5 and BANG!. Broken wire. Okay, it's not the end of the piano. Both sides of the wire were on that note, leaving only one. Continued to the next string - BANG. Now there are no strings left on that note and I'm gonna have to pull the drop action. My day just got much worse. Since I needed to go ahead and pitch raise, what the heck. More strings might break but I'm only pulling the action once. Next note, D5. BANG!. What's going on? I stopped working on the piano after three consecutive broken wires in the middle octave and explained to the customer I need to ask smarter guys about this. Capo looks okay. Wire is breaking at tuning pins. Looks like someone has been monkeying with the srews on the pressure bar because it and a couple of screw slots are gouged. I'm thinking the pressure bar has been screwed in too far creating acute bearing angle. Any thoughts?

Hi Dave,

I had exactly the same problem with a 1950's Mendelsohn.

I suspect it was a pressure bar problem - being screwed down too tight.

I told the customer it was a structural problem and time to get another piano. 

Paul.

------------------------------
Paul Brown, RPT
President
Piano Technicians Guild
Vancouver, BC Canada
Email: pres@ptg.org
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-26-2018 09:11
From: Elizabeth Pearson
Subject: Baldwin breaking strings.

Hi Dave

You are fighting what I would call a definite losing, uphill battle. Just to replace those broken strings is going to take you hours of work. And then after all that, are you going to return a few times and pull them up to pitch???

This would be my approach:
Explain to the client that labor beyond tuning is, let's say, $100 hourly. Within the time it would take for you to remove the action and replace the strings, and reinstall the action, they would far exceed the value of the instrument. And it's better for them to take that money and put it into a decent used piano.
I would let them know that you are happy to assist them in finding a replacement piano, (you can send them Craigslist listings or email them links to local piano stores). And recommend they have a tech look at it before buying "even if it's not me" to make sure it can hold a tuning, isn't filled with evidence of mice, etc.
And then I would tell them "so for today let's only go with the minimum appointment fee, and I'm really sorry that your piano can't accept a tuning."

Good luck!
Elizabeth


Original Message------

So I am working on this Baldwin Acrosonic spinet today. Serial number dates 1960, but it looks much newer. It had not been tuned in decades. 150 cents flat. Started to pull it up to pitch in the midrange first, knowing that plates are more prone to break if pitch raised that much starting from note one. I got to about C#5 and BANG!. Broken wire. Okay, it's not the end of the piano. Both sides of the wire were on that note, leaving only one. Continued to the next string - BANG. Now there are no strings left on that note and I'm gonna have to pull the drop action. My day just got much worse. Since I needed to go ahead and pitch raise, what the heck. More strings might break but I'm only pulling the action once. Next note, D5. BANG!. What's going on? I stopped working on the piano after three consecutive broken wires in the middle octave and explained to the customer I need to ask smarter guys about this. Capo looks okay. Wire is breaking at tuning pins. Looks like someone has been monkeying with the srews on the pressure bar because it and a couple of screw slots are gouged. I'm thinking the pressure bar has been screwed in too far creating acute bearing angle. Any thoughts?

From the responses to Dave's post I gather that the consensus is to condemn a piano if it can't be tuned to A440. My goal is to tune a piano to A440 when possible but my feeling is that a piano can be useful even if it can't be tuned to A440.

Bob Anderson
Tucson, AZ


Original Message------

Hi Dave

You are fighting what I would call a definite losing, uphill battle. Just to replace those broken strings is going to take you hours of work. And then after all that, are you going to return a few times and pull them up to pitch???

This would be my approach:
Explain to the client that labor beyond tuning is, let’s say, $100 hourly. Within the time it would take for you to remove the action and replace the strings, and reinstall the action, they would far exceed the value of the instrument. And it’s better for them to take that money and put it into a decent used piano.
I would let them know that you are happy to assist them in finding a replacement piano, (you can send them Craigslist listings or email them links to local piano stores). And recommend they have a tech look at it before buying “even if it’s not me” to make sure it can hold a tuning, isn’t filled with evidence of mice, etc.
And then I would tell them “so for today let’s only go with the minimum appointment fee, and I’m really sorry that your piano can’t accept a tuning.”

Good luck!
Elizabeth

Last year I had the same type piano that was 60 years old and had never been tuned after its post delivery tuning. the first pitch raise nearly killed me the piano was groaning and moaning. i did not break any strings and went slow and steady doing several pitch raises over several visits. I followed the pitch raise sequence using my SATIII doing a 25% overshoot each pass. Eventually the wild bull settled down and in the end it was a piano.  If there are loose screws on the pressure bar on top of the low pitch it is contributing to the broken strings. Someone may have thought loosening the pressure bar would make strings easier to tune. I did a service call a few years back that had random broken strings. After I pressed the kid he admitted he had a tuning lever and he touched up unisons.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-25-2018 12:03
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Baldwin breaking strings.

So I am working on this Baldwin Acrosonic spinet today. Serial number dates 1960, but it looks much newer. It had not been tuned in decades. 150 cents flat. Started to pull it up to pitch in the midrange first, knowing that plates are more prone to break if pitch raised that much starting from note one. I got to about C#5 and BANG!. Broken wire. Okay, it's not the end of the piano. Both sides of the wire were on that note, leaving only one. Continued to the next string - BANG. Now there are no strings left on that note and I'm gonna have to pull the drop action. My day just got much worse. Since I needed to go ahead and pitch raise, what the heck. More strings might break but I'm only pulling the action once. Next note, D5. BANG!. What's going on? I stopped working on the piano after three consecutive broken wires in the middle octave and explained to the customer I need to ask smarter guys about this. Capo looks okay. Wire is breaking at tuning pins. Looks like someone has been monkeying with the srews on the pressure bar because it and a couple of screw slots are gouged. I'm thinking the pressure bar has been screwed in too far creating acute bearing angle. Any thoughts?

Hi Dave,
Sorry for the shameful plug here, but my Baldwin Service Manual might be of great help to you. There are step by step instructions on the proper way to remove those actions. Plus the Acrosonic had three scales, the 727,739, and the 800. And they are not similar to each other. The ebook comes with diagrams and regulation specs. 
Regards,
chris




 Baldwin Service Manual - Chernobieff Piano

Chernobieff Piano		remove preview
Baldwin Service Manual - Chernobieff Piano A copy of the original factory service manual digitized and now available as an e-book. All scales The factory regulation procedure Original diagrams All necessary measurements ( keydip, key height, let-off, etc.etc.) 28 pages Compiled and edited by Chris Chernobieff Examples from the book. View this on Chernobieff Piano >

http://chernobieffpiano.com/product/baldwin-service-manual/



------------------------------
I'd rather be short and fat than tall and skinny.
chernobieffpiano.com
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-26-2018 10:06
From: James Kelly
Subject: Baldwin breaking strings.

Last year I had the same type piano that was 60 years old and had never been tuned after its post delivery tuning. the first pitch raise nearly killed me the piano was groaning and moaning. i did not break any strings and went slow and steady doing several pitch raises over several visits. I followed the pitch raise sequence using my SATIII doing a 25% overshoot each pass. Eventually the wild bull settled down and in the end it was a piano.  If there are loose screws on the pressure bar on top of the low pitch it is contributing to the broken strings. Someone may have thought loosening the pressure bar would make strings easier to tune. I did a service call a few years back that had random broken strings. After I pressed the kid he admitted he had a tuning lever and he touched up unisons.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 08-25-2018 12:03
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Baldwin breaking strings.

So I am working on this Baldwin Acrosonic spinet today. Serial number dates 1960, but it looks much newer. It had not been tuned in decades. 150 cents flat. Started to pull it up to pitch in the midrange first, knowing that plates are more prone to break if pitch raised that much starting from note one. I got to about C#5 and BANG!. Broken wire. Okay, it's not the end of the piano. Both sides of the wire were on that note, leaving only one. Continued to the next string - BANG. Now there are no strings left on that note and I'm gonna have to pull the drop action. My day just got much worse. Since I needed to go ahead and pitch raise, what the heck. More strings might break but I'm only pulling the action once. Next note, D5. BANG!. What's going on? I stopped working on the piano after three consecutive broken wires in the middle octave and explained to the customer I need to ask smarter guys about this. Capo looks okay. Wire is breaking at tuning pins. Looks like someone has been monkeying with the srews on the pressure bar because it and a couple of screw slots are gouged. I'm thinking the pressure bar has been screwed in too far creating acute bearing angle. Any thoughts?

      Good idea. Action R&R. Should be done occasionally anyway. Replacing piano the back-up plan. Two moves would be needed vs 1 action removal. Besides what small piano usually beats an Acro? To me wire rarely breaks after a careful application of something like Ballistol and lively tapping with a hardwood drift.

Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2018 11:16
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Baldwin breaking strings.

Hi Dave,
Sorry for the shameful plug here, but my Baldwin Service Manual might be of great help to you. There are step by step instructions on the proper way to remove those actions. Plus the Acrosonic had three scales, the 727,739, and the 800. And they are not similar to each other. The ebook comes with diagrams and regulation specs.
Regards,
chris




 Baldwin Service Manual - Chernobieff Piano

Chernobieff Piano		remove preview
Baldwin Service Manual - Chernobieff Piano A copy of the original factory service manual digitized and now available as an e-book. All scales The factory regulation procedure Original diagrams All necessary measurements ( keydip, key height, let-off, etc.etc.) 28 pages Compiled and edited by Chris Chernobieff Examples from the book. View this on Chernobieff Piano >

http://chernobieffpiano.com/product/baldwin-service-manual/



------------------------------
I'd rather be short and fat than tall and skinny.
chernobieffpiano.com
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 08-26-2018 10:06
From: James Kelly
Subject: Baldwin breaking strings.

Last year I had the same type piano that was 60 years old and had never been tuned after its post delivery tuning. the first pitch raise nearly killed me the piano was groaning and moaning. i did not break any strings and went slow and steady doing several pitch raises over several visits. I followed the pitch raise sequence using my SATIII doing a 25% overshoot each pass. Eventually the wild bull settled down and in the end it was a piano.  If there are loose screws on the pressure bar on top of the low pitch it is contributing to the broken strings. Someone may have thought loosening the pressure bar would make strings easier to tune. I did a service call a few years back that had random broken strings. After I pressed the kid he admitted he had a tuning lever and he touched up unisons.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 08-25-2018 12:03
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Baldwin breaking strings.

So I am working on this Baldwin Acrosonic spinet today. Serial number dates 1960, but it looks much newer. It had not been tuned in decades. 150 cents flat. Started to pull it up to pitch in the midrange first, knowing that plates are more prone to break if pitch raised that much starting from note one. I got to about C#5 and BANG!. Broken wire. Okay, it's not the end of the piano. Both sides of the wire were on that note, leaving only one. Continued to the next string - BANG. Now there are no strings left on that note and I'm gonna have to pull the drop action. My day just got much worse. Since I needed to go ahead and pitch raise, what the heck. More strings might break but I'm only pulling the action once. Next note, D5. BANG!. What's going on? I stopped working on the piano after three consecutive broken wires in the middle octave and explained to the customer I need to ask smarter guys about this. Capo looks okay. Wire is breaking at tuning pins. Looks like someone has been monkeying with the srews on the pressure bar because it and a couple of screw slots are gouged. I'm thinking the pressure bar has been screwed in too far creating acute bearing angle. Any thoughts?