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Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

  • 1.  Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

    Posted 02-16-2018 19:12
    A Steinway piano came into my shop for cabinet repairs- replace missing veneer and satinize. The piano sat all beautiful, then the weather got cooler and I see these mysterious white lines all over the place. Then when the shop warms up they disappear.

    IrwjFlvbR9i42jqZLG2Q_cracks 2.jpg

    Anyone have any idea what the heck is going on?

    Some observations:
    When I removed the old veneer (on the vertical curved part) it seemed very dry and brittle. I put it on the sander and it smelled like an old LP (vinyl?). It's thick too. Also the old veneer had been put on with a cloth underneath. And the glue was also dried out. 
    My guess, is there are cracks that haven't broken through the surface yet. Just a  guess though.
    Anyone seen this before?
    Thanks
    -chris
    #caveman​

    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-16-2018 19:53
    Have you asked the owner if they have observed this phenomenon too?

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

    Member
    Posted 02-16-2018 22:09
    Maybe Ruth Zeiner has seen this but it seem bizarre for veneer to be on a cloth of some type. I have used smaller pieces of veneer mounted on a glue backing that you heat up. Maybe this is what it once was . Smelling like vinyl seems equally as bizarre. I once say a piano that suffered from what looked like cold cracks . It was a woodtone veneer covered with thick thick epoxy like what is used on bartops. 

    Looks like you have a nightmare on your hands

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2018 09:08
    Assuming at present that this is NOT the original finish...?

    I have observed stuff like this before, here and there.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

    Posted 02-17-2018 14:17
    Have you tried cleaning it with mineral spirits. Could it be old wax?

    Sent from my iPhone


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  • 6.  RE: Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

    Posted 02-17-2018 14:20
    Last thing that went on it was Murphys oil soap. Never had a prob of any kind with murphys. 



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  • 7.  RE: Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2018 14:29
    Owner knows about this?

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

    Posted 02-19-2018 20:49
    This piano was bought from an estate sale by a store for resale after rebuilding it. The worse case scenario. I think i will recommend selling it as-is with full disclaimer. Or, buy another lid. I don't think this is refinishing problem to fix but a veneer lamination glue fail.
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

    Posted 02-19-2018 21:11
    I’d give a good cleaning with naptaha before throwing in the towel

    Sent from my iPhone


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  • 10.  RE: Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

    Posted 02-19-2018 22:04
    What does the naphtha do in this case? You must have a theory of what is going on, I hope.



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  • 11.  RE: Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

    Posted 02-19-2018 22:23
    I have seen these same conditions show up on pianos the were half way cleaned with mineral spirits. Naphtha is hotter and will clean whatever off the piano. Clean to original finish and make sure last wipe is with clean chemical. Get all the wax or crude off. I don’t know for sure this will work. But it saved me a few times. I think it may be mineral spirits mixed in with crud that shows up under certain environmental conditions. Just a guess.


    Sent from my iPhone


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  • 12.  RE: Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

    Posted 02-19-2018 22:25
    Thanks Thomas, I'll see if I can find a safe spot to try. I'll let you know how it goes. Keep fingers crossed.
    -chris



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  • 13.  RE: Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-18-2018 15:16
    Concerning the cloth on the veneer, my guess is that it was impregnated with hot hyde glue so all they had to do was heat it when they applied it and hold it for a few minutes until the glue set up enough so it would not come off.

    ------------------------------
    Clarence Zeches
    Piano Service Enterprise School of Technology
    Toccoa GA
    706-886-4035
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    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Strange Finish problem: They appear then disappear

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2018 01:51
    Chris,

    One other (ugly) possibility: I've seen some lacquer-finished pianos on which the lacquer degraded and crazed in a pattern just like this one. It didn't alligator like varnish, just cracks in an otherwise smooth finish. That allows moisture, furniture polish, Pledge, or whatever under the finish at the cracks, so the lacquer is not fully adherent adjacent to the cracks.

    Then someone puts a new finish over the old one, which looks just great while it's wet, and as long as the top coat is coherent. When the weather changes, or the veneer exudes moisture, it condenses under the old finish at the aforementioned cracks, and they show through the top coat. About the vinyl smell, I have seen this done with a vinyl acetate/water-based finish, which has good cohesion.

    I can't tell from the picture if this is what happened, but it's something to explore. What is the age? I'd slap so many disclaimers on this the piano would collapse from their weight.

    Bob Davis, RPT
    Lodi, CA



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