Pianotech

Back to discussions
Expand all | Collapse all

Yamaha G-2 hammers

  • 1.  Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-06-2018 09:39

    Hi all,

     

    I just brought up one of our practice room grands to the shop for some work. I'm going to put on new hammers and shanks/flanges among other things.  Has anyone ever put Abel Naturals on a G2?  They are my favorite hammer to work with as they never need too much work. I've used them on Steinways, old Mason and Hamlins, and a couple Baldwin R's, and an older Kawai grand (model 650??) and they all turned out very nicely.

     

    Also, what shanks have you used on G-2's.  This will be my first Yamaha grand recondition job. If Roger Gable is seeing this too, I know he's rebuild tons of Yamaha Grands. What say you, Roger?

     

    Thanks

    Paul

     



  • 2.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-06-2018 11:54
    Paul,
    Yes, I've installed many Abel hammers on Yamaha grands and find them quite acceptable. One of my C3 rentals still have Abel hammers.  A characteristic I've noticed about Abel is that they wear slightly faster than stock Yamaha or Renner hammers, although I wouldn't loose any sleep over it. I would recommend, though, using Renner on larger Yamaha grands such as the C7. Hammer choice is highly opinionated and we're splitting hairs to some degree based upon ones perception of tone. I tried Ronsen on occasion I found, although good tone envelope, lacking in power expected of Yamaha. As for shanks, I highly, highly, recommend using Yamaha shanks. I used an aftermarket shank a few years ago and lost a mega church customer because the bushings kept seizing up. Yamaha parts are so precisely machined that when I installed a new set of shanks and hammers a few months ago I found the drop screws needed little adjustment.
    Roger



    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-07-2018 15:58
    I would definitely put something softer than an Abel (or Renner) hammer on a practice room piano.  I would probably opt for a 14lb Ronsen Wurzen Felt hammer.  It's a little brighter out of the box than the Wurzen (or Bacon) but will have enough punch for that piano right away.  They are very stable hammers over time, very resilient and last.  No lacquer if they seem under to you.  Just let them play in.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Posted 04-07-2018 17:28

    Paul you mentioned two things in your OP:

    1- putting new hammers on an old belly
    2- new hammers on a rebuilt belly

    The age of the belly in itself will factor in the decision. As belly's age, the impedance reduces. This reduction in stiffness effects the hammer choice. A dense hammer which may work nicely on a new belly, may very likely be a bad choice for a more flexible aged belly.

    Case in point...I just put a set of Bacons on a Falconi 74 from the 80's. I'm not sure what the originals were, because the hammers I replaced were replacements, and in horrible shape...felt coming off the moldings. However, I'd bet they were set up with dense hammers originally. Whatever they were or weren't set up with originally, the Bacons were right on the money, because they were appropriate to the condition of the aging belly. Very little b72 in the top octave only, and in the shop, the b-72 in the hammer core up to note 50 or so. The clarity of pitch and brightness (living room venue) were appropriate to the venue.

    The choice of hammer is made relative to the present structural capabilities of the belly. Knowing that structure mostly reduces with age, suggests that dense hammers and old belly's are going to be an uphill battle...thank goodness for Ray Negron. 



    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-07-2018 21:07
    Jim,
    Your absolutely right, the age of the soundboard is a primary factor; a factor many technicians don't consider.
    Roger



    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-07-2018 21:20
    Voicing the soundboard with riblets can sometimes offset some of the age related impedance issues. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Posted 04-07-2018 21:47
    Re the Falconi...next time I see Bruce Clark I'll try to remember to ask him about the hammers....as he was the designer back when Hector was a pup.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Posted 04-07-2018 21:52
    ...and, Achilles was whining in his tent...right?

    Anyway, he preceded Santi in those designs?   I did not know that.   Thanks!

    Kind regards.

    Horace

      Original Message


    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Posted 04-08-2018 01:09
    Going with the hammers you're most comfortable working with will yield the best results regardless of the condition of the soundboard.  Hearing what a board can do, and matching a hammer type to bring out its potential is pretty advanced stuff, and requires experience. So if you are trying to choose hammers that sound good out of the box, stick with what you know.
    Stiffness is a by product of design and mass, i don't understand how that changes with age? Elasticity of a material on the other hand will fatigue with age, if that is what is meant.
    Riblets don't fix any age related issues, they are a band aid fix to design flaws. When ribs are overbuilt, made excessively stiff by laminating for example, unbalance across the panel is created. Stiff rib- flexible field, stiff rib-flexible field,Etc.Etc.  Along comes the riblet to bring back balance by adding more stiffness to the fields. But it would be better if it were possible to reduce the excessive stiff ribs. Judging from my many conversations with Darrell, I think he would concur. But, I digress from the original OP.
    -chris
    #caveman

    ​

    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2018 14:09
    I don't agree with that.  Too often we select hammers that we are comfortable working with that are not right for the piano at all.  I've been advocating careful hammer matching for years (and so have others).  Hammer sampling is always a good idea in spite of how hard it may be to extrapolate the entire piano from a few samples.  It's not that complicated or difficult to make good choices.  I do this routinely on *all* pianos that I replace hammers on. 

    A hammer that ends up being needled way down in order to better match the impedance characteristics of the scale/belly, or, for that matter, a hammer that needs to be heavily lacquered, will perform differently than a hammer that is less abused.  Hammers need to perform in two ways, they need to compress and they need to decompress.  The decompression phase is just as important as the compression phase as it influences hammer string contact time and, perhaps more importantly, stability.  A hammer that has experienced a lot of needling, or a lot of lacquering, decompresses at a different rate than one that is still in an uncompromised state and its ability to return fully to its original shape and state prior to impact compression gets compromised the more you mess with it.  While some manipulation is usually necessary the amount varies considerably depending on your choice.  Generally speaking less is more when it comes to hammer performance and longevity.  Since this is a practice room piano the goal should be to put something on there which is under your target so that you can leave it uncompromised and let it play in to the desired state.  A hammer that is right at the level or above and requires needling to get it to absorb more unwanted energy that would otherwise be delivered to the string will be less stable and is in danger of becoming bombastic in a relatively short amount of time given the likely use.


    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2018 00:48
    Peter,
    I've heard about Del's riblets, but never connected with any class he may have had. Do these riblets extend the full length of the soundboard or local areas only?
    Roger



    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2018 01:51
    Darrell's riblets ....

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Posted 04-08-2018 05:59
    Darrell's riblets are about 5.75" (146 mm) in length. There might be a photo in the archives.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2018 20:49
    Clarification:  I said "sometimes". Riblets are not a cure-all for soundboards. They are simply one facet of voicing that can sometimes help.

    I make my own at this point. The photos show Darrell's design which adds both weight and stiffness. They can easily be made to conform to the current crown such that no counter pressure is applied, as well as 100% surface contact.

    Article in August 2007 PTJ discusses riblets and other methods.

    It takes some experimentation to get the sense of what they do, but if they don't work (or make it worse) you just take them off. Nothing permanent has been done. Read the article as it says it better than I can. (I have had to read it about 5 times to fully understand it).

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2018 07:20

    This G2 is a 1989. How old of a belly is considered old?  It was a donated piano a few years ago and babied it's whole life before it got here. I examined everything I could briefly and it's in excellent shape. I need to do some capo bar reshaping I think since it breaks lots of strings in the top section. However, the hammers are so shot and grooved I think that is probably the main reason for the string breakage.

     

    Keep the good info coming. I have a couple months until our new fiscal year starts and the Dean has requested I hold off on buying the hammers/shanks/flanges and possibly wippens until then.  Meanwhile, I'll commence with the restringing and capo issues (if any).

     

    Thanks

    Paul

     




    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Posted 04-09-2018 08:40
    The determination of old would be, for me, can you, with the existing hammers, achieve improvement at all in the low to mid  5th octave or not. If its explosive there, and minimally responsive to your efforts, its getting tired. Refine the strike point of a couple of notes in that low/mid 5th octave, reduce the strike surface, then increase it, beat the wahoo out of the hammers and juice the grooves back up with a touch of b-72. If it  takes much "doing" to get any improvement, the part of the board that gets tired first, will be tired.

    David Love...I'm curious about how you physically carry an adequate selection of test hammers. Every time I have considered this, the sheer variability of flange designs has turned me away from doing this...unless, you just bring the shank with no flange, and mount the test shank to whatever flange is extant on the instrument. Also, what register(s) do you have samples for?

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2018 11:18
    I'm at the point where I pretty much am using either Ronsen (Bacon or Wurzen generally) or Renner hammers (Blue Points mostly but sometimes Blues or Hamburg Steinway) so I carry only those samples prehung at 130mm on a Steinway shank and flange.  You can pretty much use that S/F on any piano and it will work well enough for sampling, although probably 75% of the action replacement work I do is on Steinways.  Some regulation adjustments may be required.  If the hammers are hung at a radically different point on the shank then I pop it off with a pair of hammer removing pliers and reglue it.  Otherwise I just move the action in or out and usually that's only an issue in the upper end of the piano.  I sample midrange, around C4, and midtreble, around A5, as those are the key areas for me.  Having new and old side by side is very telling.  I have samples for the low tenor (around notes 25-30) and low treble/high tenor (around note 50-55) as well but don't always use them. The very top section and the bass are not as critical but I do carry samples for those sections as well.  I'll experiment with mass differences also with the extra samples.  Often hammers in the killer octave suffer from simply too much mass so I'll make sure I have some  lighter hammers available.  The hammers I have are kept in ZipLoc bags by type (and labeled) so I know what I'm pulling out easily.  I can't imagine putting new hammers on without sampling.  For the customers it's very important as it gives them a real sense of the difference and I've sold many hammer replacement jobs by simply demonstrating what the difference will be.  For very picky customers who really have something specific in mind it also brings them into the decision making which can be a benefit if your tastes don't necessarily match theirs.

    But in this case with a practice room, I'm wouldn't be looking for the hammer that creates a performance ready piano (especially on a G2) I would want long term stability and a hammer that won't require voicing after the first week of eight hours a day playing.  That argues strongly for a Ronsen hammer, either a Wurzen or Weikert for that piano.  I wouldn't sweat over soundboard matching in this case.  Just don't put on something too hard.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2018 09:30

    Does anyone have the stringing scale for a G-2?  I notice that the string gage isn't marked on the plate. That would be a great help so I don't have to mic them all.

     

    Thanks

    Paul

     




    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Member
    Posted 04-09-2018 09:42
    Best thing is to contact Yamaha tech service and give them the serial number and year. I doubt the scaling has changed but never say never. Dealt with some redesign when putting hammers on a C7 . You said the piano was babied but grooved hammers flat strike points isnt a good sign however owners may not have had the money for new hammers etc. The broken strings may be the wrong gauge as well.
    I am not sure this is relevant but I recall being told that metric string should be used in Yamahas. Anyone ?

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2018 09:45

    The battered hammers have certainly been done by the students!  Hammers don't last very long here as they get played 14 hours a day on average.




    Original Message


  • 21.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2018 10:07
    Mr. Williams,
    generally Yamaha pianos print the string scale on the bridge instead of the plate. I've been having tremendous success with Ronsen Weikert Special felt hammers in my super high use instruments. They are out lasting everything else by a wide margin and do not get harsh as quickly if at all. My time at Steinway gave me an abiding dis-like for all things Bacon Felt Company but that was a long time ago and maybe I should re-visit the issue.
    Mr. Ialeggio, forgive my stupidity but what is B72 ?

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 22.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2018 10:20

    Aha, the scale is indeed on the bridge!  Forgot about that :>)  Thanks a bunch

     

    Also would like to know what B72 is. :>)

    Paul

     




    Original Message


  • 23.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Posted 04-09-2018 13:11
    The Bacon felt coming out of the Bacon factory for the last 5 or 6 years is a different animal than the garbage that they were producing ten years ago. Talking to Ray about this a while ago, he said he was almost set to stop using the Bacon felt, until this improvement happened. I think Ray actually went to the factory, and showed them what was not working with their process or felting machine. The felt is now really nice...you might re-visit them.

    Paraloid b-72.  Ken Eschete as someone familiar with the museum conservation world, has been working with this material which is used in the conservation field. Dale Erwin sells the pellets now, maybe others. Its a high tech specialized plastic that is more flexible after curing than other plastics, clear. Nothing like keytop plastic. With acetone it flashes completely in 45min, giving the finished tone in that short 45 min time frame. Makes on-site building of less dense hammers practical, as you know tonally what you are getting in 45min.  Dan Levitan and Ken Eschete, I think are presenting a class on this stuff at the convention in PA this summer.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 24.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2018 11:25
    Hammers that wear best are hammers that have the healthiest, high quality fiber with the least amount of heat pressing, chemical additives and needle voicing.  Those hammers have the greatest fiber integrity, interlocking and return more consistently to their pre-compression state after impact which is what stability is all about.  14 hours a day?  Use Ronsen.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 25.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2018 11:37
    Hi Roger,
    Actually, I think Darrell is the one who has demonstrated and sells the riblets. They are short...maybe 6-8 inches long.

    Jeannie Grassi
    Registered Piano Technician
    Island Piano Service
    206-842-3721
    grassipianos@gmail.com


    Original Message


  • 26.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2018 12:23
    Jeannie and Susan,
    Thanks for the correction. Darrell not Del.
    The reason for my inquiry is the fact that I have a 17 year old Steinway 7'5" that exhibits a low impedance characteristic around B flat 4 (note 50).  Increasing the impedance via riblets seems to be a viable band-aid approach. The low impedance characteristic I'm referring to is a strong low frequency impact noise and shortened sustain. This is very localized and doesn't extend much beyond a couple of notes either direction. I didn't notice this when the piano was new (although maybe so subtle I didn't recognize it) but now it's getting beyond a practical hammer voicing "fix". By "fix", I mean, softening the hammer to reduce the strength of the attack without killing the upper-end tone envelope.
    To add to previous comments by Jim Ialeggio the soundboard does loose stiffness (impedance) over time -- contrary to other comments made-- and the impedance can develop in localized areas, and this is a highly local phenomenon. I'll re-read the Journal article and check with Darrell in the near future.
    Roger



    Original Message


  • 27.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Posted 04-09-2018 13:14
    The very fact that you have to add material to the rib structure to fix tonal deficiencies proves my point, all by itself.  Steinway ribs are very incongruous. On width, usually the top 5 treble ribs are too narrow, you can mic them yourself, anything less than 1.00" is a problem rib. Coupled by the horrendous practice of hand planing the height (and rounding them) leaves them in a horribly weakened state for impedance problems to creep in at a later date. Riblets don't extend from rim to rim, so the on-going structural problem is still there. Riblets are a nice additional tool to have in some cases.
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 28.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-18-2018 09:59
    Sorry for chiming in late to the party here :)

    We've used the different Abel hammers for Yamaha grands (shorter C's and G's) here at the conservatory, with great results. If anything, I'd say I like their hammers even more than the originals from Yamaha - their's tend to be overly bright, at least here in Europe. Maybe not so much the older G series, but the C series pianos are very harsh and bright when they arrive here. They need a lot of needling to get the best possible dynamics and timbre. 

    The Abel hammers we order would be the ones that uses the same principle as Yamaha, impregnated.

    I agree totally with Paul above - the practicing room piano hammers wear down fast, I haven't seen a big difference in what kind of hammer we've used. 

    A small notice about the possible cultural differences - pretty much all hammers in Europe are needled down, never hardened (except for the highest treble). But that goes for original Yamaha hammers, too, so I guess that's a given.

    Oh, and by the way, Paul, I have a G2 from the 80's standing six feet from where I'm writing this, in my living room. If you need to double-check something regarding consistency or so, I'd be happy to assist.

    On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 8:14 PM, Chris Chernobieff via Piano Technicians Guild




    Original Message


  • 29.  RE: Yamaha G-2 hammers

    Posted 04-07-2018 21:20
    ‎Hi, Roger, Jim,

    I totally agree about soundboard age/condition as serious factors in selecting hammers.

    Also; and only FWIW: At one point I was working on a fair number of earlier Falconi instruments.   While I might be wrong, I'm pretty sure that most of the production during the 80's were set up with the then-current version of the Renner "Blue" hammer.   Ric Baldassin would probably be the best source for more real production data.

    Kind regards.

    Horace

      Original Message


    Original Message