Pianotech

Expand all | Collapse all

Glide Adjustment Methods

  • 1.  Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-07-2017 19:52
    Hello all,

    I was re-studying methods of adjusting the glide studs in grands. I don't fancy removing 20 keys to adjust the glide studs with the "paper"method, and I'm not so keen on knocking either -- suppose Im having trouble differentiating the sounds of the knocks.

    Does anyone know of an easier way of adjusting the glide studs other than these two?

    Thanks,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-07-2017 20:10
    Ben,
    Take a look at the WNG tool (https://www.wessellnickelandgross.com/index.php/tools/key-frame-tool.html) that makes this adjustment much easier. Also consider signing up for the 37 Steps Grand Regulation seminar at the PTG Home Office (attending the convention in St Louis next week, etc.).

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-07-2017 22:21
    Be aware that the paper method will not work on Yamaha's. The glide bolts in Yamaha grands are deliberately set to stick out about 2mm. Changing them will extremely screw with key height and overall regulation. The paper method is great for most pianos but learn the knock method as it will work on everything.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-07-2017 22:34
    Having nice knockers helps too. Instead of using your hand, it's better to have a good tool.
    I took a piano hammer and added a handle to it for knocking. Helped a lot.  I also made a low profile wrench for turning the glide bolts. That helped too.
    Once you have the right tools the rest is developing the skill. There's no short cut in developing a skill.

    Chernobieff Piano Restorations

    Chris Chernobieff ( pronounced chur-no-bif )
    Associate Member of the Piano Technicians Guild
    Knoxville, Tennessee
    email: chrisppff@gmail.com
    Follow on:  Facebook
    phone: 865-986-7720








  • 5.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-09-2017 10:09
    Chris wrote:
    "I also made a low profile wrench for turning the glide bolts."

    We have, I am pretty sure, every wrench commercially available in the past twenty years for adjusting balance rail glide bolts (mostly of the tuning-pin configuration). For the tuning-pin type, the overwhelming favorite in our shop is a motorcycle spoke wrench (Pro-Motion 6.0 & 6.3 mm). If memory serves, the idea came into my world thanks to Mark Adams.

    For glide bolts that call for a slotted screwdriver, we modified a "stubby" so that it will both fit in between adjacent balance rail pins and so that a screwdriver an be inserted into its handle and used as a wrench. (I would take and attach a picture, but am away form the shop for the next week at the convention.)

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-08-2017 15:24
    Edited by Benjamin Sloane 07-08-2017 19:11
    Geoff,

    Piano manufacturers in the Orient gained a reputation for avoiding the sundry modifications of wood dimensions over time with space and climate changes constructing a fixed cheek block. The Occident already determined that is impossible.

    Out of the factory, 2mil will work, no question. Beyond that, I don't know. Maybe that is why Japanese won't buy a rebuilt piano.



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-08-2017 17:37
    Benjamin --

    As it was explained to me, the quality control in manufacture at Yamaha is such that they can anticipate key height and dip and add pre-defined punching's during assembly accordingly. Setting the glide bolts at about 2mm allows them to then use the glide bolts to fine tune key height and dip without having to overly play with regulation and punching's again, which is already pretty close by the time the pianos get to that point.

    The reason both the Japanese and the Chinese, well, Asians in general, don't buy used pianos, or used anything for that matter, has nothing to do with their knowledge of quality or manufacturing techniques. It's actually much more of a cultural thing. Their thinking is that if something is no longer good enough for the original owner then it is, by definition, no longer worth owning by anyone. Purchasing anything used, for them, is a major loss of respect, (face). A declaration to their community that they are no longer worthy.

    I remember reading, (somewhere), that the main reason for poor quality control from products manufactured in primarily China, is that the workers doing the work are not motivated to care. They get paid nothing and have as much as said during interviews that they could care less whether the product fails or not. If it fails it will not affect them because their family will never be able to afford the product in the first place. 


    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-08-2017 20:40
    Geoff,

    So can every US manufacturer.

    I do think there is some credence, perhaps in the past, not present, to the "Built to last" production model in the USA. Not so much an Eastern philosophy, and dying in the West. Immutability as a concept is more Western, actually. To everything; humanity, nature, God. Change is Eastern.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-08-2017 22:00
    Geoff.

    The philosophy of not buying used anything is based on a universal belief that buying new keeps people in the manufacturing sector working.  If people buy used pianos it would take away income from the people working in the factories.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-10-2017 04:02
    Yes, definitely the cute WN&G gizmo which I haven't gotten around to buying yet.

    Maybe I should do that sooner than later.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-10-2017 08:52
      |   view attached
    As requested here's a pic of the aforementioned tools. Nothing special, just work well for me. 





  • 12.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-11-2017 08:29
    While we're sharing videos, here's the WNG tool in action (pun intended!).






  • 13.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-11-2017 09:16
    Since we are sharing visuals related to the WNG balance rail bedding tool… here is one possibility for use on an action with two "blind" glides that combines the WNG tools and the paper method. (Note the motorcycle spoke wrenches in place, ready to fine-tune the bedding.)

    Alanbalance rail bedding

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-11-2017 16:39
    Chris,

    Will these work inside the piano? It looks to me like they'd be too big to fit...

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-07-2017 20:30
    See p. 6 of the PACE Grand Regulation book for a simple and dependable method.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-08-2017 10:33

    See p. 6 of the PACE Grand Regulation book for a simple and dependable method.

     

    This refers to an excellent article on key frame bedding written by Bill Spurlock.  One interesting point from the article is Bill advocates against raising all the glide bolts up so that that none are touching the keybed.  He points out that doing this can "ruin existing key level and dip settings". 

     

    Most articles I have read about key frame bedding recommend the opposite and advice you to start  by tuning up all of the glide bolts.  Even the instructions that come with the WNG tool recommend turning up all of the glide bolts before starting.

     

    I've never tested Bill's statement but I have always wondered if turning them all up will cause a significant  change in key leveling and dip leading to unnecessary and extra work. Does anyone have an opinion on this?






  • 17.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-08-2017 15:05
    On a piano that seems to be fairly well-regulated, I never turn them all up prior to checking the bedding. If starting a regulation, I would check that to be sure. Yes, everything could change with big changes at the glides.

    I check the keyframe bedding on every grand I tune. Except the darn Steinways, who continue to use 3rd century technology for attaching the fallboard. ;)


    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-07-2017 20:52
    Benjamin

    The information you got from Ed and Patrick are good.  But you should also develop your knocking skills. It's the easist way to bed the keyframe.

    Use the heel of your palm to knock on the balance rail buttons right next to the studs. It doesn't take much to hear the knocks.


    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-07-2017 22:31
    Here's what I do with the pianos that are already set up. (In other words, not starting with the bare keyframe and no keys on it.) The glides need to be close to the correct position in order for this to work. Generally, if one can hit a glide bolt and hear a knock, it's too high. So make sure they're all a bit on the high side (i.e., the bottom of the glide not touching the keybed.)

    Start either on the bass side or the treble side. Grab a bolt and pull it up and down. If you hear a slight knocking, it's still too high. Adjust the glide down until the knocking *just* goes away. Move in small increments. Move to the next nearest bolt and do the same thing. Check the bolts you've already adjusted to make sure they don't change from moving adjacent bolts. Once all bolts have no knocking, it's done. Just make sure you're not adjusting the glides too far down, which changes the level of the keys.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-08-2017 00:16
    Many thanks all. I will definitely look into all the suggestions!

    One technique that I found in an older article is to use the Lowell Downbearing Guage. I currently don't have one, and am not sure where to find one. But it looks to me to be a similar to a bubble guage. Is anyone familiar with this technique, and will a bubble guage work?

    In the mean time I will try out some of the aforementioned suggestions. Thanks!

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-08-2017 05:32
    Edited by Benjamin Sloane 07-08-2017 09:33
    It should first be observed that when adjusting glides, keys are not removed to use paper to check for proper contact of the glide with the key bed. Keys are removed to adjust the glides themselves.

    Sometimes removing keys concealing glides cannot be avoided. E.g., adjusting glides on the old and newest Baldwins I've seen requires not only removing keys, but fastening the stack back on the key frame with the keys off to expose the glide, and when completing the adjustment of the glides, removing the stack, returning the keys to their proper place, and putting the stack back on once glides are adjusted to their proper height, and placing the action back in the piano.

    Kawai has glides underneath keys but is engineered to be adjusted from the bottom of the key frame. These glides require an action prop mounted underneath the key bed to be of as much benefit as possible. Unfortunately, not all key frames with glides beneath the keys are designed and built this way.

    If you do not fasten the stack on after removing keys to adjust glides underneath them, you will be in for a surprise when you put the top action back on the key frame and put the action back on the key bed.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-08-2017 09:55

    From Chris: Instead of using your hand, it's better to have a good tool.

    I took a piano hammer and added a handle to it for knocking. Helped a lot.  I also made a low profile wrench for turning the glide bolts. That helped too.

     

     

    Any chance you could post a photo?

     

    Thanks,

     

    David Weiss






  • 23.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-08-2017 14:35
    Hand is best. Kent Webb also advise for at least Steinways is to also move all the pedals several time as well and then re-check. Yes, taking them up until they just start to knock and then down is good advise. You'll be surprised that you might get a knock. It's very subtle. I learned this at one of the Steinway factory training seminars. Still want to do the other 2!

    Paul

    ------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Director of Piano Services
    School of Music
    813 Assembly St
    University of South Carolina
    Columbia, SC 29208
    pwilliams@mozart.sc.edu
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-08-2017 15:03
    I edited in and out some of this about pedal depression in my post on this subject. I think at this stage it is a separate subject. What happens when you depress the pedal? I think Kent Webb is great, but he didn't explain what happens then. He just claimed bedding it changes, but not how.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-08-2017 07:19
    Hi Ben,

    Extremely simple, dependable method. No extra expensive tools required. Action remains intact.

    Start by anchoring the back of your hand against the pinblock, your fingers on the keysticks surrounding the glides. Using the pinblock for leverage, flex your hand and press down on each glide bolt area to see where the glides are. If the keys in that area move and flex downward, you'll know the glides aren't touching the keyframe. You can depress a key, and put a dip block on it to help you see this.
    Check to see if the front rail is floating. Squeeze the front rail to the keybed and look for any movement.

    Starting from the bass end, turn the glides up slightly. You should see the keys move/wink downward as the glides loose contact with the keybed.
    Flex the keys at each glide to ensure there is no contact. The keys should flex at each section. You can also do the tap test.

    Then, starting with the second glide in turn the glide down until the keys wink up. When they wink up, your glide has made contact. Using a 6" ruler, and looking dead ahead at the keyfronts helps to see this. Do the flex test, and the knock test to ensure the glide is solidly bedded.

    Move to the next glide. This time, you can turn the glide while knocking to hear the progression- no knock-> a little knock-> louder knock-> no knock. Do the flex test, and then check the previous glide.

    Keep going with this, checking the previous glides after you finish the current one. If a previous glide is knocking, you either have to back off the current one, or turn down the knocking one slightly.

    When you finish, engage the damper pedal and check again. If a glide knocks with the pedal depressed, you'll need to turn it down a little more.

    As you go, check to make sure the front rail isn't floating. But remember of course on a Steinway the cheek ends of the front rail tap a little without the cheekblocks fastened down.

    It took me longer to write this than it takes to do it. To help you with the sense of where the glides are at first, pull the action out and tip it up, balancing it on the backrail (don't let the dropscrews touch the stretcher!) and look at the glide bolts. You can even use a straight edge to see how much they protrude from flush.

    And always, when reinstalling the action, you should hold the front end up so the glides don't smash into the front of the piano.

    Hope all this helps. it takes practice but it's extremely simple, quick, and there's no need to purchase any tool fancier or more expensive than your glide bolt turner.


    Good luck.




  • 26.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-08-2017 07:21
    PS- using the flex test is a sure way to avoid what you described, having to differentiate between knocks you hear. You will need to do some knocking, but this alternative reduces the knocking greatly.




  • 27.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-08-2017 07:43

      I agree with Patrick about looking into purchasing the WNG tool. I also think you can improvise as others suggested. I had a Yamaha C7 with a large and heavy key frame and used the paper method . In order to turn the glide bolts I improvised and "made" a tool using a 1/2 box wrench with a screwdriver blade that was on a large shank for use in a drill. I will have a slide in my class in St Louis next week. It is important to bed the frame properly and follow certain sequences.Good contact with the keybed sets the foundation for a good regulation. You will often find the screws /glider have been messed with and cranked out or totally in. To be honest I have not used the WNG tool yet but it is now in my tool kit. I also like the idea of pounders as Chris suggests

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-11-2017 00:41
    I lean a 6" rule (pocket style, with a clip) against the front of a key next to each glide. I adjust the cross piece of the clip so that it is slightly above the top of the key, leaving a 1 mm or so gap. Now I turn the glide, and see what happens. Turn it down, and the key should rise, assuming it is touching. Turn it up and see whether the key goes down.

    For each glide, I experiment, and leave it so that the least turn down raises the key, and a turn upwards does nothing. Leave it in the middle, move on to the next glide.

    One time through may be enough, but if you are needing to turn a lot, a second pass is recommended.

    Follow with the knocking method: pull up on the action frame (fingers on the let off buttons often works) and thump down with two or three fingers of the other hand, or with some form of thumper. You want to be able to create a thump, but only with a pretty vigorous lift of the action frame. And you want them all the same. Do step lightly on the una corda pedal when doing the bass, as friction against the stop block will make it quite difficult to lift, and to create a knock. The top treble is also a little iffy, due to the extra stiffness of the frame there and the bearing of the spring, so I just adjust it using the 6" rule and call it good enough.

    The pedal thing: press one foot hard on all the pedals. Check for knocks again. Why? you will be flexing the key bed downward, emulating a pianist using left and right pedals at the same time. It CAN make enough difference to produce a knock.

    (A slightly more refined, and faster, method is to leave the glide about 5 degrees turn downward from what seems to be the neutral spot - i.e. cheat slightly in the direction of downwards when you are settling into the middle zone. You want a bit of downward pressure, and definitely don't want the glide to be high. This will make the knocking procedure go faster, as you will usually need to lower each glide a bit if you start from a true, zeroed neutral).

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 07-13-2017 10:33
    I would definitely NOT routinely raise all glide bolts to start the bedding procedure from scratch. Glide bolts are used in a variety of ways by manufacturers and technicians...some ways are recommended and some are not. Raising them all, as had been previously noted, can cause some big problems with regulation and key level to arise.

    If your goal is to find and fix all such issues, and your client is committed to paying for it...knock your self out (it's a pun...get it?...knock yourself out...oh forget it). Otherwise, for routine servicing, fix the one that is knocking and let the other sleeping dogs lie...lay...whatever.

    FWIW, I use a long shanked screwdriver with a rounded tip, which I put against the keyframe at each glide and tap the handle with the palm of my hand. I have never been able to get the "lifting" method to work for me.

    ------------------------------
    Eric Johnson [RPT]
    [Eric Johnson Pianos]
    [Westport] [CT]

    203-520-9064
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-06-2018 00:46
    Hello all,

    Im sorry to reopen this discussion after several months. Let me fill y'all in before asking another question.

    About a month after until just last week, I've been working with Jim Connolly, RPT, to develop my knocking skills. Last week I finally got it down completely! (Yes, any of you who want embarrassing stories about how Ben hurt himself while trying to knock can contact Jim....)

    Several months ago I purchased the WNG tool as discussed above. While it gets it close (?), it almost always leaves a knock (by my ears, verified by Jim). And that's not even with the pedal down.

    Am I missing something? I followed the instructions on WNG's website, but it still doesn't seem to work. I don't want to declare it a waste of money yet, and was wondering how those of you who use it use it successfully.


    P.S. I found using a Mason Hamlin Screw Stringer wrench works very well for turning the glides.

    P.P.S. Are they call glides or balance rail studs?

    P.P.P.S. Don't you just love post scripts?

    P.P.P.P.S. Thanks all!

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-06-2018 06:51
    I come from the old school of "hard knocks" ( pun intended).  Which tool one uses is more of preference. The larger real issue with mastering the knock test has  to do (more) with understanding the physical leverage needed to lift the  weight of the keyboard.  I've taught a number of chapter technicals on this  very subject and I was shocked as to how many techs couldn't  get the knock test mastered.  I've learned that adjusting your  body position can help quite a bit.
      If you are one that is struggles with the knock test, try standing  and leaning over the pinblock area. Pay close attention to establishing a good forearm leverage, as your arms reach into the action cavity.
      Some with extremely strong wrists can manage this test with ease in the sitting position. Just remember that this is a 2-handed operation. One arm must be able to lift the weight of the keyboard in a controlled manner ,while the other hand is chopping like a karate hit with the other.  I've found that once you come to terms with how much weight is bearing down on the glides , along with forming a good forearm position, this test becomes much more manageable.  My 2 cents....


    ------------------------------
    Tom Servinsky
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-06-2018 07:01
    I am by no means an expert in bedding a Yamaha key frame but I do know if you remove the keybed Spring, the knocking is loud and bedding is simple!

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 33.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-06-2018 07:56
    Something that hasn't been mentioned yet (I believe) is that tightening all the screws underneath the keybed can have a significant effect on this adjustment as well. I do not do it routinely (that would be a real pain), but before embarking on a complete regulation I get under there with a big screwdriver (w/wrench for leverage) and crank them all tight (repeat ALL).

    I have learned the importance of this by neglecting to do it (oops!) and then having to start all over again.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-06-2018 13:19
    Hello Thomas,

    One thing that Jim told me is that pushing up on the underside of the key bed with your knee will produce the same effect as pushing on the underside of the pin block. It frees up a hand. Just one piece of advice I've really appreciated!

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-07-2018 08:13
    Benjamin,

    I'm not exactly clear on that. Can you elaborate please?

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-07-2018 10:25
    Hi Peter,

    This is the method Jim taught me:

    1. Raise the glides (I wasn't clear if this was just because I was new at this or if this is something he recommends I do each time)

    2. Start with the second highest one, go down, end with the highest gilde

    3. Push down on the sustain pedal as hard as you can

    4. Lower the glide until there is no knock

    5. To test, press on the underside of the key bed with your knee (this is all done from a sitting position). If you can hear a knock when pressing upward with your knee, but not when not pressing with your knee, then the glides are adjusted properly

    6. If you can hear a knock when you knock without the knee on the key bed, but it goes away when you press your knee into the underside of the key bed, then the glide is too high

    7. If there is no knock with or without your knee pressing into the underside of the key bed, the glide is too low

    8. When doing the end glides, it's easier to know where they are if you knock at the second-to-end glides. E.g. to adjust glide 1, listen at glide 2, on the side closest to glide 1.

    Success, I found out, is based largely in being able to apply enough pressure to the sustain pedal. This stimulates a forceful pianist playing FFF, and the glides need to be adjusted properly so that he can have that feeling of power that he needs.

    I hope this helps. If I haven't explained it clearly, please let me know and I'll try again.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-08-2018 11:06
    Benjamin,

    This sounds like something that will work well on some brands, but not others. Any experience to share of pianos that just wouldn't cooperate?

    ------------------------------
    David Stocker, RPT
    PNWRVP
    Olympia WA
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-08-2018 14:50
    Benjamin ,

    I guess my confusion is in that you are pressing DOWN on the sustain, and UP with your knee. Just trying to assimilate the logic here. Not saying it's wrong. What EXACTLY is the knee trying to simulate?  Everything else I get. (Though I do it differently).

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-08-2018 16:00
    Edited by Benjamin Sanchez 03-08-2018 16:03
    Hello David,

    As far as I know, it works well on Stainways. Only tried it otherwise on a Kolher and Campbell 4'7" spinet grand. Couldn't get my hand in there to knock, so I ended up using the WNG tool. Haven't tried it on anything other than Steinways at this point.

    Hello Peter,

    Pressing down on the sustain is to stimulate a concert pianist REALLY going at it, giving that thing everything they got - when they do that, generally they press on the pedals real hard.

    Pressing up with the knee is just a test to see if you have the glide adjusted down enough, but not too far down. Actual adjustment is made WITHOUT pushing on the underside of the key bed. If there is no knock with the sustain pedal but without the knee, the glide is in the neighborhood. If you add the knee test, and there's a knock, then it's perfect. If, when adding the knee test, no knock is produced both before and after the test, then the glide is too far down.

    (Essentially pushing on the key bed with the knee has the same effect as pulling up on the pin block. Keep in mind that this is just a test, not something to do while adjusting the glides.)

    Hope this clarifies. Give it a try next time you're near a grand and have a few extra minutes. Step by step directions are in my previous post. Let me know if how it goes.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-08-2018 16:06
    Going back to my original "reopen this thread" post, has anyone else here had experience with the WNG tool? Does it work for you? Or am I just doing something wrong?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 41.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-08-2018 16:22
    Yes. I bought  mine a couple of months ago and cannot recommend it highly enough. Previously I would have only considered adjusting glides on grands that I was involved with doing serious regulation on. I now carry the WNG tool with me, and whenever I find myself taking the fallboard off, even to just fish a pencil out, I check the glides. It only takes five minutes. I do them all twice. It is rare that I don't encounter at least a couple of glides that don't need obvious adjustment. Often they are all out of wack.

    ------------------------------
    Craig Miller
    Marietta GA
    770-321-9390
    ------------------------------



  • 42.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-08-2018 16:48
    Just to clarify, I experience no knock. But I find that if any of them are very far off, it can take several passes, as each time you change one it affects the others. You may have to keep cycling through them all until you get results. However, I also have only used one method of knocking for some years: With the cheekblocks installed, I bang on the keys above the balance rail with my right hand, which is protected by a weightlifters glove, while holding the frontrail down with my left. I do not use a tool to knock. Also, if you install the tool at the end glides, you should not see movement when tightening and releasing the cheekblock screws. Also, sometimes the knock can come from elsewhere.

    ------------------------------
    Craig Miller
    Marietta GA
    770-321-9390
    ------------------------------



  • 43.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-15-2018 15:19
    The WNG tool will work to make it so there is no knock with the keyframe simply sitting there. If you raise it, by pulling up on the action (or perhaps the glide bolt) with one hand, the other hand will be able to produce a knock. That is simply logical, as the tool shows the action moving relative to the block, and where the motion stops. It is just resting there, at a zero point. So you would need to lower each glide a hair, probably on the order of 1/8 turn or so, to get that somewhat more positive connection. It gets you to the point where you can gauge that extra little turn.

    Another comment, on the method of producing the knock. I prefer to place a couple fingers on the balance rail (if accessible) or the keys, touching them without any pressure. Raise the action with the other hand. Jerk downwards, suddenly putting weight on the fingers bearing on the keys/rail. The karate chop method I always found troublesome, partly because the impact of fingers/heel of hand on whatever made a noise, making it harder to distinguish a light knock. The real key, though, is consistent lifting with the other hand.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 44.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-15-2018 15:36
    Just remove the action spring, keep the action pushed toward the Bass and proceed with the knocking ritual. You’ll like it. Amazing how easy it becomes!

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 45.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-15-2018 15:59
    Spoke with WNG the other day. They mentioned that it might be the front rail was not bedded, that was producing the knock. Haven't tried it yet, but it seems likely, knowing the piano. I was able to determine that the knock in that little 4'7" grand spinet was coming from something else, probably hardened felt. So it seems like the WNG tool is working after all.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 46.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods

    Posted 03-16-2018 11:38
    One method I liked, I forget who and what convention class it was,,

    With the key slip off,, cut a business card so it stands on the keybed and hooks under the the front edge of the keys with a slight bend.
    It should look like this,,, (
    With your wrench on the glide and the card placed on the corresponding keys, push down and the card will flex if the balance rail moves, even the slightest. Step on the sustain pedal to check. Sometimes a block of wood for the push on the bolt is better.
    Finding which bolt that is floating is easy.
    For full regulation,
    I raise all the bolts and start in the treble section where the keys are the lightest. Get them all even and bedded solid, then as Fred Sturm said,, raise the balance rail, all bolts 1/8 turn. Check your key height, dip and let off.

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-728-2163
    ------------------------------



  • 47.  RE: Glide Adjustment Methods