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D-D Temperament

  • 1.  D-D Temperament

    Posted 08-24-2018 19:35
    Anyone have a D-D temperament sequence. I heard a D-D  temperament in the Virgil Smith video performed by Alan Zajicek, and the slower beat speeds seem to suit me better than a F-F. Thought i'd play with it awhile.
    Thanks for any help.
    -chris

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    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it".

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
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  • 2.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2018 19:52
    Why not just transpose you F-F temperament?

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 3.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Posted 08-24-2018 20:12
    I could I suppose, but I have:
    Coleman pure 5th Sequence
    Kimbell-Tremper
    Potter F-A
    Brady F-F
    Coleman F-F
    Defebaugh F-F
    Baldassin-Sanderson F-F
    Potter F-A 1
    Potter F-A 2
    European A (The Small)
    European A (The Great)

    Overwhelmed with options, the problem is which one to choose.





  • 4.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Member
    Posted 08-24-2018 20:15
    Also, the F-F doesn't offer you the sweet starting point of the D3-A4 perfect twelfth. However, once you've got the Ds positioned, any one of the F-F sequences would work if carefully transposed. 

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    jason's cell 425 830 1561





  • 5.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2018 14:13
    There are a couple of reasons I like, use and recommend this particular A-A temperament. First there is the quality of tuning the fourths and fifths in a sequence that allows the setting of the pin and the expansion or contraction of the intervals to be in natural accord. This only works if one sets the pin (or settles the string if one prefers) from above the target pitch. This is the technique I use on the vast majority of pianos. Second the A3-D4 beating roughly once per second lets me chose how wide an octave I want to use by comparing it with D4-A4. A pretty good description on the stretch we used in the C&A dept. on almost exclusively B's and D's was that A3-D4 beat 1bps and D4-A4 was very close to pure. This usually produced an octave beating around .5 bps or more or less 2 cents wide maybe a bit more. We were essentially producing then what is now fashionable to describe as pure twelfth tuning. It's a very natural way to learn to set a temperament and I witnessed a number of people hired right off the street learn to use it accurately with great stability in under 2 months.

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 6.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Member
    Posted 08-24-2018 20:13
    You'd start with fork-A4 and fork-D3 both beatless.
    Then tune the A3 and D4 so that the octaves are clean, the D3-A3 and D4-A4 fifths have a very slow beat, and the A3-D4 fourth beats more noticeably, and the four notes together sound sweet and A4 matches the fork.
    Then the stacked contiguous thirds starting with D3: D-F#-A#-D, striving for even progression, and hen a fifth down from A# to D#. Also a fourth up from A#3 to D#4, if you're willing to go outside the D-D octave for this temperament. Make that D# octave sound the same as the D-D and then you can use the continguous thirds to tune D#3-G3-B3-D#4. Then down a fifth from B3 to E3, and check the fourth E3-A3. Tune G# from E so that the third beats the same as the D-B sixth. Then C4 as a M3 from G#, speed to match the sixth of F#3-D#4, and check C4 as a fourth against G3. Now it's just the F3, which you'll test as the tonic of a M3, a 4th, a 5th, and a 6th.
    I can give you the theoretical beat rates, but my spreadsheet doesn't calculate inharmonicity so the numbers would be a little off from the reality. Very little, probably.


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    jason's cell 425 830 1561





  • 7.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Posted 08-24-2018 20:21
    Thank Jason,
    Very nice and helpful.
    Appreciate it.
    -Chris 





  • 8.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Posted 08-25-2018 01:53
    Sounds pretty cool having slower beat speeds. The only problem I see is if the lower notes (D D# E) were wound strings. That would complicate the partial series of those notes.

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    Cobrun Sells
    C.J. Piano Tuner
    www.cjtuner.com
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
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  • 9.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2018 10:12
    Back in 1984 LaRoy Edwards suggested to me that a temperment between A3 and A4 might be better as it was in a more consistent part of the scale vis a vis inharmonicity. Later that year I started using Braide-Whites F-F transposed up a M3rd. For me it had the advantage of having the A3-D4 fourth and the D4-A4 fifth both beating at .99 beats per second assuming a pure octave. You can find the chart on page 68 of Piano Tuning and Allied Arts. I could use a metronome set at 60 bpm and give myself a fixed reference to match. When I got to Steinway in 1990 I discovered that they had been using the same temperment for years.

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 10.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Posted 08-25-2018 12:36
    I too use the F-F temperament when tuning aurally. For 40 years it
    has provided a musical smile for a host of musicians. In fact no professional musician has ever complained about the temperament or the tuning.
    Now Mr. Sanderson and I tune the pianos and they’re still smiling!


    Sent from my iPhone




  • 11.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Posted 08-25-2018 12:37
    I forgot to mention Suttons Swans Wing Temperament in my list and it is an A-A.
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it".

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Posted 08-25-2018 15:01
    Thank you for noticing. I thought that was totally forgotten. I'll be presenting a new A2-A4 temperament before long.
    Here is a lovely pattern in the A2-A4 thirds when tuned with octaves at or near 6/3. [ > means "a little faster"]
    A2-C#3 > A2-C#4 > C#3-F3 > C#3-F4 > F3-A3 > F3-A4 > A3-C#4 > C#4-F4 > F4-A4

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 13.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Posted 08-25-2018 16:04
    No Problem. Still making my way through the article, but this chart you devised sure makes it easy to follow. Hope you keep it in the updated version.


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    I'd rather be short and fat than tall and skinny.
    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
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  • 14.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Posted 08-27-2018 07:10
    I wrote this backwards.
    "Here is a lovely pattern in the A2-A4 thirds when tuned with octaves at or near 6/3. [ > means "a little faster"]
    A2-C#3 > A2-C#4 > C#3-F3 > C#3-F4 > F3-A3 > F3-A4 > A3-C#4 > C#4-F4 > F4-A4"

    I meant the opposite, as you go up the sequence, each interval beats a little faster. 
    A2-C#3 < A2-C#4 < C#3-F3 < C#3-F4 < F3-A3 < F3-A4 < A3-C#4 < C#4-F4 < F4-A4"

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 15.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Posted 08-25-2018 16:11
    Karl thanks for mentioning this. Is this the chart you refer to? Its on pg 108 in my copy of the book.

    Any tips you want to add regarding any differences of your transposed A3-A4 version. 
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    I'd rather be short and fat than tall and skinny.
    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2018 20:34
    Mr. Chernobieff,

    That is indeed the sequence. In my version (29th printing) table IV is on page 88 so I'm guessing you'd find table III where I found the beat rates around page 88 in your volume. The biggest difference in the A-A version I use is that I start with an A440 fork or pitch source. Back when I got started in the early 1980's a lot of folks still used a C523.3 fork but I abandoned using mine when I started tuning A-A. The reasoning was that orchestras tune to A and starting on C just introduced an unnecessary level of difficulty in making the oboist or concertmaster happy. The sequence is as follows.

    A4 from fork
    A3 from A4
    ** D4 from A3 and A4 ** out of sequence.D4 should be the last note but I like to set it first as mentioned previously.
    E4 from A3 and A4
    B3 from E4
    F#4 from B3
    C#4 from F#4
    G#4 from C#4
    D#4 from G#4
    A#3 from D#4   having D4 already tuned makes the aural checks around A#3 much easier
    F4 from A#3
    C4 from F4
    G4 from C4
    D4 from G4

    One can and should use several notes outside and below the temperament for aural proofing of ones intervals. As I stated earlier except for my out of sequence note each of the fifths will be contracted slightly with the setting of the pin and each of the fourths will be expanded in the same way. Just because a thing is simple and easy doesn't make it bad.

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 17.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Posted 08-25-2018 21:43
    Thanks Karl,
    I like it. And I like simple too.
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    I'd rather be short and fat than tall and skinny.
    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2018 14:41
    A two octave temperament A2-A4 is, in my view, the best which will accommodate the requirements of different pianos. That, with a focus on contiguous thirds and 4:5 ratios for setting the initial framework will give you a broad range of beat speeds and adjust automatically for inharmonicity differences. Changing the spread for a one octave temperament isn't as effective under any circumstances. 


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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 19.  RE: D-D Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2018 15:47

                 Contiguous 3rds are fine as far as they go but what about playing hands apart? 4 Contiguous M6ths make a triple octave and 3 M10ths a quadruple. Strategy can be expanded.