Pianotech

Hello to all,
I have encountered an annoying problem with agraffes in a “rebuilt” 1926 Model M Steinway. I replaced one a few months ago that popped. It was a particularly stubborn one to remove and I ended up having to drill it out and use a threaded insert for the new one (Thank you Pianotek Supply!) At the time I noticed that several others had been replaced by someone else in the past, all in the trichord tenor section. It is very obvious to spot which ones were replaced because the “rebuilder” had spray painted the agraffes along with the plate leading me to surmise that the original ones were left in the piano for the restringing.
I got another call this week that another one had popped and am hoping it will be simpler to replace than the previous one.

Since I’ve never encountered such an epidemic in a single piano, my question is what could have caused this? Age? I have worked on many older pianos than this and not had a problem like this. Contamination from paint? Contamination from some other source? Was there a known problem with agraffes from the factory during this particular time period?What have been others' experiences?

Since the piano was purchased from a store as “rebuilt” the owners are not inclined to pay for a restringing job with new agraffes.

Thanks for your input,
~ jeannie

Jeannie Grassi, Registered Piano Technician
Island Piano Service
Bainbridge Island, WA
206-842-3721

Here is a photo that Ron Nossaman posted as to why the agraffes break. The threading did not go all the way to the base.
I removed two from an M yesterday with the breaks at the start of the threading. That makes three in the past week.



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Regards,

Jon Page
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-08-2018 10:55
From: Jeannie Grassi
Subject: Bad agraffes

Hello to all,
I have encountered an annoying problem with agraffes in a "rebuilt" 1926 Model M Steinway. I replaced one a few months ago that popped. It was a particularly stubborn one to remove and I ended up having to drill it out and use a threaded insert for the new one (Thank you Pianotek Supply!) At the time I noticed that several others had been replaced by someone else in the past, all in the trichord tenor section. It is very obvious to spot which ones were replaced because the "rebuilder" had spray painted the agraffes along with the plate leading me to surmise that the original ones were left in the piano for the restringing.
I got another call this week that another one had popped and am hoping it will be simpler to replace than the previous one.

Since I've never encountered such an epidemic in a single piano, my question is what could have caused this? Age? I have worked on many older pianos than this and not had a problem like this. Contamination from paint? Contamination from some other source? Was there a known problem with agraffes from the factory during this particular time period?What have been others' experiences?

Since the piano was purchased from a store as "rebuilt" the owners are not inclined to pay for a restringing job with new agraffes.

Thanks for your input,
~ jeannie

Jeannie Grassi, Registered Piano Technician
Island Piano Service
Bainbridge Island, WA
206-842-3721

There is a rule of thumb I use when I encounter broken agraffs. One, darn it.  Two, look out. Three, replace all of them. 

The question is, who is going to pay for it? If the store gave any kind of guarantee, they would have to be responsible if it's still covered. Otherwise the customer will have to pay. You can try to explain that they can either pay you one at a time, or bite the bullet and replace all of them.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-08-2018 10:55
From: Jeannie Grassi
Subject: Bad agraffes

Hello to all,
I have encountered an annoying problem with agraffes in a "rebuilt" 1926 Model M Steinway. I replaced one a few months ago that popped. It was a particularly stubborn one to remove and I ended up having to drill it out and use a threaded insert for the new one (Thank you Pianotek Supply!) At the time I noticed that several others had been replaced by someone else in the past, all in the trichord tenor section. It is very obvious to spot which ones were replaced because the "rebuilder" had spray painted the agraffes along with the plate leading me to surmise that the original ones were left in the piano for the restringing.
I got another call this week that another one had popped and am hoping it will be simpler to replace than the previous one.

Since I've never encountered such an epidemic in a single piano, my question is what could have caused this? Age? I have worked on many older pianos than this and not had a problem like this. Contamination from paint? Contamination from some other source? Was there a known problem with agraffes from the factory during this particular time period?What have been others' experiences?

Since the piano was purchased from a store as "rebuilt" the owners are not inclined to pay for a restringing job with new agraffes.

Thanks for your input,
~ jeannie

Jeannie Grassi, Registered Piano Technician
Island Piano Service
Bainbridge Island, WA
206-842-3721

My rule is the same as Wim's. 

If the piano is "out of warranty" then that settles that issue. If not, then the dealer should own up to his/her responsibility. 

If it's on the owner, I would explain that this is a problem that is very hard to foresee. Though clearly whoever rebuilt the piano had a pretty good indication of it and decided not to deal with it completely. The dealer would not be expected to see this issue necessarily, so I would possibly cut them some slack.

Also, it could be instructive to know the price paid for the piano as well as who the rebuilder is, plus precisely how the instrument was represented to the buyer. (What paperwork exists?)

Depending on the specific circumstances, sometimes a carefully worded letter from an attorney can work wonders (initially non-threatening of course).

But if it truly is a "buyer beware" situation or simply way beyond any sort of warranty, then it's on the homeowner to pay, unfortunately.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-08-2018 13:09
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Bad agraffes

There is a rule of thumb I use when I encounter broken agraffs. One, darn it.  Two, look out. Three, replace all of them.

The question is, who is going to pay for it? If the store gave any kind of guarantee, they would have to be responsible if it's still covered. Otherwise the customer will have to pay. You can try to explain that they can either pay you one at a time, or bite the bullet and replace all of them.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 09-08-2018 10:55
From: Jeannie Grassi
Subject: Bad agraffes

Hello to all,
I have encountered an annoying problem with agraffes in a "rebuilt" 1926 Model M Steinway. I replaced one a few months ago that popped. It was a particularly stubborn one to remove and I ended up having to drill it out and use a threaded insert for the new one (Thank you Pianotek Supply!) At the time I noticed that several others had been replaced by someone else in the past, all in the trichord tenor section. It is very obvious to spot which ones were replaced because the "rebuilder" had spray painted the agraffes along with the plate leading me to surmise that the original ones were left in the piano for the restringing.
I got another call this week that another one had popped and am hoping it will be simpler to replace than the previous one.

Since I've never encountered such an epidemic in a single piano, my question is what could have caused this? Age? I have worked on many older pianos than this and not had a problem like this. Contamination from paint? Contamination from some other source? Was there a known problem with agraffes from the factory during this particular time period?What have been others' experiences?

Since the piano was purchased from a store as "rebuilt" the owners are not inclined to pay for a restringing job with new agraffes.

Thanks for your input,
~ jeannie

Jeannie Grassi, Registered Piano Technician
Island Piano Service
Bainbridge Island, WA
206-842-3721

Steinways from the 1920's are very prone to agraffe failure. Also, Steinway in general "forces" agraffes too far when they install them. One can tell this when you have rebuilt many and your standard practice is to remove agraffes for chamfering of string holes and buffing. 

The Steinway plates from the 20's have the agraffe holes chamfered so there is no thread at the top of the holes. The thinking being this gives more room to "twist" the argaffe before it will break. But the usual over forcing practices of the factory agraffe installation quickly used up this little safety margin

Agraffes are not made as well as they could be as regards resisting damage from installation. There should be a radius where the threaded shank meets the top because the cutting process to produce a right angle will create tiny little metal cracks, and when the agraffe is installed with forcing, the cracks grow over time.

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Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-08-2018 17:01
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Bad agraffes

My rule is the same as Wim's.

If the piano is "out of warranty" then that settles that issue. If not, then the dealer should own up to his/her responsibility.

If it's on the owner, I would explain that this is a problem that is very hard to foresee. Though clearly whoever rebuilt the piano had a pretty good indication of it and decided not to deal with it completely. The dealer would not be expected to see this issue necessarily, so I would possibly cut them some slack.

Also, it could be instructive to know the price paid for the piano as well as who the rebuilder is, plus precisely how the instrument was represented to the buyer. (What paperwork exists?)

Depending on the specific circumstances, sometimes a carefully worded letter from an attorney can work wonders (initially non-threatening of course).

But if it truly is a "buyer beware" situation or simply way beyond any sort of warranty, then it's on the homeowner to pay, unfortunately.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 09-08-2018 13:09
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Bad agraffes

There is a rule of thumb I use when I encounter broken agraffs. One, darn it.  Two, look out. Three, replace all of them.

The question is, who is going to pay for it? If the store gave any kind of guarantee, they would have to be responsible if it's still covered. Otherwise the customer will have to pay. You can try to explain that they can either pay you one at a time, or bite the bullet and replace all of them.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 09-08-2018 10:55
From: Jeannie Grassi
Subject: Bad agraffes

Hello to all,
I have encountered an annoying problem with agraffes in a "rebuilt" 1926 Model M Steinway. I replaced one a few months ago that popped. It was a particularly stubborn one to remove and I ended up having to drill it out and use a threaded insert for the new one (Thank you Pianotek Supply!) At the time I noticed that several others had been replaced by someone else in the past, all in the trichord tenor section. It is very obvious to spot which ones were replaced because the "rebuilder" had spray painted the agraffes along with the plate leading me to surmise that the original ones were left in the piano for the restringing.
I got another call this week that another one had popped and am hoping it will be simpler to replace than the previous one.

Since I've never encountered such an epidemic in a single piano, my question is what could have caused this? Age? I have worked on many older pianos than this and not had a problem like this. Contamination from paint? Contamination from some other source? Was there a known problem with agraffes from the factory during this particular time period?What have been others' experiences?

Since the piano was purchased from a store as "rebuilt" the owners are not inclined to pay for a restringing job with new agraffes.

Thanks for your input,
~ jeannie

Jeannie Grassi, Registered Piano Technician
Island Piano Service
Bainbridge Island, WA
206-842-3721

Isaac Sadigursky pinpointed the S&S agraffe problem per Jon Page's photo: 1925-29 serial #s 235,000 to 265,000. The only agraffes I have ever had to replace fall in that range.

Bob Anderson
Tucson, AZ


Original Message------

Hello to all,
I have encountered an annoying problem with agraffes in a “rebuilt” 1926 Model M Steinway. I replaced one a few months ago that popped. It was a particularly stubborn one to remove and I ended up having to drill it out and use a threaded insert for the new one (Thank you Pianotek Supply!) At the time I noticed that several others had been replaced by someone else in the past, all in the trichord tenor section. It is very obvious to spot which ones were replaced because the “rebuilder” had spray painted the agraffes along with the plate leading me to surmise that the original ones were left in the piano for the restringing.
I got another call this week that another one had popped and am hoping it will be simpler to replace than the previous one.

Since I’ve never encountered such an epidemic in a single piano, my question is what could have caused this? Age? I have worked on many older pianos than this and not had a problem like this. Contamination from paint? Contamination from some other source? Was there a known problem with agraffes from the factory during this particular time period?What have been others' experiences?

Since the piano was purchased from a store as “rebuilt” the owners are not inclined to pay for a restringing job with new agraffes.

Thanks for your input,
~ jeannie

Jeannie Grassi, Registered Piano Technician
Island Piano Service
Bainbridge Island, WA
206-842-3721