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Voicing solvent jars

  • 1.  Voicing solvent jars

    Posted 05-04-2018 09:19
    Looking for a small jar for acetone or ethanol voicing mixes, which does not allow evaporation of the solvent between uses. Currently, since I don't use the voicing mixtures but occasionally, I end up discarding the contents of the jar for each job, since the evaporation between uses creates an unknown dilution.

    I have fine amber glass jars, but the plastic lids and cardboard seals are not adequate to the task.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-04-2018 09:22

    How about baby food jars?

     






  • 3.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Posted 05-04-2018 09:36
      |   view attached
    These squeeze bottles work quite nicely. I believe pianotek carries them.





  • 4.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-04-2018 10:17
    Jim, I have used the Hypo-25 applicator bottles with the thin metal needle that you can get from Pianotek (page B-2).  Very targeted and controlled application of material. 

    Will Truitt

    ------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-04-2018 10:27
    Will -
    His problem is not the delivery, it's the storage, and those bottles are made of LDPE, which is not good for long term.  The one Chris showed is (I think) HDPE which is probably better, but glass with appropriate tops would be best.

    You can look at Fischer Scientific https://www.fishersci.com/us/en/products/I9C8L7WG/vials.html
    or B&H Photo https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Storage-Bottles-Tanks/ci/797/N/4077265210

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Posted 05-04-2018 10:11
    The amber jars sound like the medicine bottles you can (or could) by from the druggist.
    Nothing seems adequate to seal acetone.
    If you make a mark showing the fluid level on the side of the jar, you will know how much to add to reconstitute the dilution.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Posted 05-04-2018 10:50
    Good idea Ed.  I checked out materials rated for acetone contact, and EDPM (rubber roofing) comes up as an A rating. All I actually need is appropriate gasket material, because I love the size of the amber jars I have. I'm going to order a piece of 3/32" EDPM from mcmaster, and try that. combined with Ed's excellent, "duhh, why did't I think of that" idea, that should be a big improvement.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Posted 05-04-2018 10:51
    make the EDPM

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Posted 05-04-2018 11:33
    EPDM ...just got a free sample from the lumber yard

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-04-2018 11:23
    Every year my family buys glass jars with metal lids from Walmart to jam our excess plums. I don't know how this would work with acetone or other voicing "juices." One can simply screw on the lid, or one can seal it on.

    To seal it, insert whatever material you want into the jar, tighten the lid, and boil the jar. In a few minutes a seal is created that will last at least several years - assuming you have fruit guts in it. Like I said, I've never tried this with acetone, so I'm not sure if it would work here or not.

    Has anyone else tried this?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Posted 05-04-2018 12:09
    Ben-
    Have you ever used acetone?
    It boils at 133 degrees Farenheit.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Posted 05-04-2018 12:24
    Good Morning,

    Excellent point about flash points.

    Once again, I'm late to the parade with a suggestion.

    For years/decades, I used 500ml dark amber chemical storage bottles.
    These have caps with Nalgene/related seals which have stood up to a
    variety of nasty liquids with no problems. These, I carried vertically
    in a hard-shell case, separated by custom-cut foam.

    Someplace along the line, I started using 250ml Nalgene bottles for the
    same thing. These latter have the advantage of being not only
    (virtually) nasty-liquid-proof, but also, being able to be simply dumped
    into a box and carried...no special treatment other than to keep things
    out of direct sunlight.

    In either case, not overfilling the storage container will help minimize
    leakage.

    Among other vendors, the above are both available from either of the
    sources David mentioned earlier in the thread.

    Obviously, YMMV.

    Kind regards.

    Horace

    On 5/4/2018 9:08 AM, Ed Sutton via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >
    > Ben-
    > Have you ever used acetone?
    > It boils at 133 degrees Farenheit.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Ed Sutton
    > ed440@me.com
    > (980) 254-7413
    > ------------------------------
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 05-04-2018 11:23
    > From: Benjamin Sanchez
    > Subject: Voicing solvent jars
    >
    > Every year my family buys glass jars with metal lids from Walmart to jam our excess plums. I don't know how this would work with acetone or other voicing "juices." One can simply screw on the lid, or one can seal it on.
    >
    > To seal it, insert whatever material you want into the jar, tighten the lid, and boil the jar. In a few minutes a seal is created that will last at least several years - assuming you have fruit guts in it. Like I said, I've never tried this with acetone, so I'm not sure if it would work here or not.
    >
    > Has anyone else tried this?
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Benjamin Sanchez
    > Professional Piano Services
    > (805)315-8050
    > www.professional-piano-services.com <http://www.professional-piano-services.com>
    > BenPianoPro@comcast.net <BenPianoPro@comcast.net>
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 05-04-2018 10:11
    > From: Ed Sutton
    > Subject: Voicing solvent jars
    >
    > The amber jars sound like the medicine bottles you can (or could) by from the druggist.
    > Nothing seems adequate to seal acetone.
    > If you make a mark showing the fluid level on the side of the jar, you will know how much to add to reconstitute the dilution.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Ed Sutton
    > ed440@me.com <ed440@me.com>
    > (980) 254-7413
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 05-04-2018 09:19
    > From: Jim Ialeggio
    > Subject: Voicing solvent jars
    >
    > Looking for a small jar for acetone or ethanol voicing mixes, which does not allow evaporation of the solvent between uses. Currently, since I don't use the voicing mixtures but occasionally, I end up discarding the contents of the jar for each job, since the evaporation between uses creates an unknown dilution.
    >
    > I have fine amber glass jars, but the plastic lids and cardboard seals are not adequate to the task.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Jim Ialeggio
    > grandpianosolutions.com
    > Shirley, MA
    > 978 425-9026
    > ------------------------------
    >
    >
    > Reply to Sender : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=05518cf4-726d-4ed4-8816-048b957c45a3&MID=688836&MDATE=756%253d45%253a459&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >
    > Reply to Discussion : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=688836&MDATE=756%253d45%253a459&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
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    >
    >
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    >




  • 13.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-04-2018 12:40
    Hi Ed,

    No, I've not yet. That's a somewhat low boiling point, but it might be high enough to seal the jar.... I'm not entirely sure, just one of those ideas off the top of my head.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Posted 05-04-2018 13:19
    Ben
    Don't boil volatile solvents.
    Don't put them in pans on top of stoves and hot plates.
    You can have a very bad accident.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Posted 05-04-2018 14:32
      |   view attached
    Hi, Benjamin,

    To put further emphasis on Ed's note, please take a gander at the
    attached Material Safety Data Sheet (AKD, an "MSDS") for acetone. While
    this particular one is from a specific vendor, there are many more
    available via Google. This one was selected because the company which
    provides it is international in scope; and the document itself is
    reasonably accessible.

    Kind regards.

    Horace

    On 5/4/2018 10:19 AM, Ed Sutton via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >
    > Ben
    > Don't boil volatile solvents.
    > Don't put them in pans on top of stoves and hot plates.
    > You can have a very bad accident.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Ed Sutton
    > ed440@me.com
    > (980) 254-7413
    > ------------------------------
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 05-04-2018 12:39
    > From: Benjamin Sanchez
    > Subject: Voicing solvent jars
    >
    > Hi Ed,
    >
    > No, I've not yet. That's a somewhat low boiling point, but it might be high enough to seal the jar.... I'm not entirely sure, just one of those ideas off the top of my head.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Benjamin Sanchez
    > Professional Piano Services
    > (805)315-8050
    > www.professional-piano-services.com <http://www.professional-piano-services.com>
    > BenPianoPro@comcast.net <BenPianoPro@comcast.net>
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 05-04-2018 12:08
    > From: Ed Sutton
    > Subject: Voicing solvent jars
    >
    > Ben-
    > Have you ever used acetone?
    > It boils at 133 degrees Farenheit.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Ed Sutton
    > ed440@me.com <ed440@me.com>
    > (980) 254-7413
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 05-04-2018 11:23
    > From: Benjamin Sanchez
    > Subject: Voicing solvent jars
    >
    > Every year my family buys glass jars with metal lids from Walmart to jam our excess plums. I don't know how this would work with acetone or other voicing "juices." One can simply screw on the lid, or one can seal it on.
    >
    > To seal it, insert whatever material you want into the jar, tighten the lid, and boil the jar. In a few minutes a seal is created that will last at least several years - assuming you have fruit guts in it. Like I said, I've never tried this with acetone, so I'm not sure if it would work here or not.
    >
    > Has anyone else tried this?
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Benjamin Sanchez
    > Professional Piano Services
    > (805)315-8050
    > www.professional-piano-services.com <http://www.professional-piano-services.com>
    > BenPianoPro@comcast.net <BenPianoPro@comcast.net>
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 05-04-2018 10:11
    > From: Ed Sutton
    > Subject: Voicing solvent jars
    >
    > The amber jars sound like the medicine bottles you can (or could) by from the druggist.
    > Nothing seems adequate to seal acetone.
    > If you make a mark showing the fluid level on the side of the jar, you will know how much to add to reconstitute the dilution.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Ed Sutton
    > ed440@me.com <ed440@me.com>
    > (980) 254-7413
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 05-04-2018 09:19
    > From: Jim Ialeggio
    > Subject: Voicing solvent jars
    >
    > Looking for a small jar for acetone or ethanol voicing mixes, which does not allow evaporation of the solvent between uses. Currently, since I don't use the voicing mixtures but occasionally, I end up discarding the contents of the jar for each job, since the evaporation between uses creates an unknown dilution.
    >
    > I have fine amber glass jars, but the plastic lids and cardboard seals are not adequate to the task.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Jim Ialeggio
    > grandpianosolutions.com
    > Shirley, MA
    > 978 425-9026
    > ------------------------------
    >
    >
    > Reply to Sender : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=05518cf4-726d-4ed4-8816-048b957c45a3&MID=688840&MDATE=756%253d45%253a459&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >
    > Reply to Discussion : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=688840&MDATE=756%253d45%253a459&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >
    >
    >
    > You are subscribed to "Pianotech" as hgreeley@sonic.net. To change your subscriptions, go to http://my.ptg.org/preferences?section=Subscriptions&MDATE=756%253d45%253a459&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved. To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to http://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/eGroups/Unsubscribe.aspx?UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved&GroupKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf.
    >


    Attachment(s)

    pdf
    LC10420.pdf   290 KB 1 version


  • 16.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-04-2018 15:46
    Hi Ed, Horace,

    Thanks for the warnings. I admit, it was more of a theory, one that I have very little intention of testing out. But you're right, I probably shouldn't boil a volatile substance.... probably....

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-04-2018 22:14
    I wonder, myself, why you should even use such a volatile substance. I keep some acetone as nail polish remover in the little picnic cooler for liquids, in case I run amok with CA glue. The only time I ever had to use it was when I put a rubber button on a lid and managed to glue the end of my left thumb to my forefinger. I found out what I had already suspected, that the bond from CA mixed with white glue is a lot stronger than CA alone, which can usually be pulled loose, taking only an outer superficial layer of skin. It took time and effort and nail polish remover to unattach myself from myself.

    Acetone -- I assume acetone and keytop is the desired application, and acetone is used because it dries fast. I absolutely DESPISE the tone of keytop in acetone, which I have also found extremely difficult to get rid of, even when the solution was dilute.

    Most concert pianos I work on were set up by someone else, who did whatever tone building of the new hammers was required. I manage the voicing, but need to use very little juice, mostly in the very high or very low registers.

    If I were setting up new hammers, and needed tone building, I'd use lacquer and lacquer thinner, as sounding better.

    As it is, I take a different approach. (I'm sure that few people will feel attracted to my way of doing it.) I keep ultrablonde shellac in the old herbal dropper bottle, and I have a plastic squeeze bottle of "vodka". If a piano suddenly needs to be "bigger" (like when someone was playing Rachmaninoff 3 on a previously mild-mannered slightly wimpy Steinway D) I voice the high and low registers, phasing in gradually, with the ultrablonde shellac. One can't work on the voicing till it has had awhile to set up. The tone from it is very good, and it is totally non-toxic. (Shellac is why M and M's don't melt in your hand; it's also used to coat vitamin tablets, and the ethanol is human-potable, from the liquor store. Fumes are no problem; you could drink the stuff.)

    Why I think this hasn't caught on (and no one has made a "tuner's tale" about it) is that the effect is more or less temporary. With repeated applications, (I've done this several times with octave 7) it gradually stays brighter, but the first time I used it, while it made a big difference, it played back down most of the way later on. I theorize that this is because shellac is brittle once it has dried. A good heavy playing, and it will ease off in brightness. It's also very cooperative, since it dissolves so easily. Add some vodka on top of a hammer and the shellac in the outer layers can wick deeper in. Or you could get a high treble hammer well soaked with vodka and dry it out with a shop towel, removing quite a bit.

    Technicians tend to want permanence, more or less, but I think that a temporary effect, used carefully, has considerable attractions. For tRach 3, requested late the night before the concert by the artist to make the top end a lot brighter, I drove over, used the shellac, tried to voice a little, but it wasn't set up enough yet. The following morning I had intended to needle it more before the dress rehearsal, but I didn't get there in time. The pianist was playing very heavily with a great big sound. The heavy playing had taken the edge off the shellac, and the increased brightness ended up just right. Happiness all round, the teachers heard the volume of sound it was making and their jaws dropped.

    Well, ---- I doubt anyone will rush to try it, but the approach does have certain advantages.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-06-2018 11:52
    Susan,

    I like your approach. I have the vodka and I have the shellac. I'm going to play with it. I think you should write a full fledged article on it.

    Also, if I am not mistaken, shellac was the hardener of choice for quite some time in the Steinway factory. Anyone have details on that?
    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-06-2018 12:31
    Thank you, Peter. Please tell me how it works for you!

    One detail: I use ultrablonde shellac, but it still has a trace of color. This is a "defect" which might be a "feature", since you can tell exactly how far it has wicked in. I use a small amount of it in the strike area. I've never tried soaking a whole hammer in it, though I think I once did drip in some from the sides for a hammer which had been through a lot and sounded really dead.

    If I want to be subtle, I dip a piece of piano wire in the bottle, and lay it in each string groove.

    As for an article, I've used it several times, but not a multitude of times or on a lot of different pianos. I don't think I have the volume of experience needed for a real article. It might be up to a "Tips, Tools, and Techniques" though.

    A few background notes: I saw Steve Brady use it shortly before a two piano concert at Linfield College, when one of the pianos (a B from a teaching studio, with pretty new hammers) was brought to pair with their D, which was much brighter. He had a big squeeze bottle of it. The time was short, just a couple of hours, but it worked just fine.

    Then, I found out (maybe from Horace Greeley?) that the Steinway voicers had used whatever was used in the case finishing department. Hence, in early days they had used shellac, changing to lacquer when the company changed to lacquer.

    The Linfield event and the Steinway data were both encouraging enough that I dared try using shellac. I like the sound. That it would start bright but soften down from heavy loud playing was a surprise. I'd really like for some other people to try it, and see if it acts that way for them.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-06-2018 12:34
    Oh, just to be sure, Peter -- you don't make the shellac with the vodka, because the vodka is half water. You make the shellac from flakes with 190 proof bulk ethanol, because it's extremely dry. And of course it has to be kept tightly capped so moisture from the air doesn't get into it.

    You probably just meant that you already have the shellac to brighten, and the vodka to make less bright -- I keep both in my kit.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-06-2018 19:30
    Susan,

    I actually do have THE VODKA, the high test stuff that will burn your throat to ribbons if you drink it. Had to buy it in MA cause it's "not available" in NH (unless you're in the military, oddly enough). 

    I'm not sure I have ultra blond shellac but I can get it. 

    BTW your piano wire technique is much like Scott Jones' little voicing kit. This stuff would be a good addtion/alternative to these lacquer preps.

    Pwg


    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-07-2018 03:29
    It should be easy for you to find ultrablonde shellac flakes online. I just pour some flakes into a small mason jar, fill with 190 proof ethanol, cap tightly, and swish around in a warm water bath. Then I dry off the jar and put the dissolved shellac into an old tincture bottle, complete with handy eye dropper. (One can use a plastic straw like a pipette, finger over one end, to transfer liquid into the tincture bottle.) And then I put the tincture bottle into a ziploc bag and I'm all set for a long long time.

    Once I had several kinds of shellac flakes, but kept them in the garage. They melt in heat, and are no longer flakes, but more like rocks. I suppose one could put them into a strong canvas back and shatter them by hammering, but it's easier to keep the flakes in the house away from excess heat.

    hmmm, 190 proof VODKA. And here what I always called "vodka" (actually, 190 proof Clear Spring cut half and half with tap water) was closer to 100 proof. It's what I use to mellow hammers sounding like broken glass or tin cans, also to soften glue to extract upright hammer shanks, etc. Of course, if you dip a whole hammer into it, you get a kind of blob with the internal structure trashed forever. Well, some people like misshapen hammers so sweet and forgiving that they couldn't snarl if their lives depended on it.

    100 proof ethanol is a pretty good disinfectant.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-08-2018 03:27
    Just as an aside... since the subject of super blonde shellac came up:
    I re-tested my corrosion test using a new set of possible corrosion inhibitors.  Super blonde shellac came up best, after most of the other corrosion inhibitors have long gone to rust, the super blonde is still quite shiny and rust free.

    Perhaps this is something we should consider on strings too.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-08-2018 06:02
    What is the proper mixture of ethanol/shellac flakes? There's been talk of the mixture but I don't believe the formula has been shared.

    Looking forward to that reply.

    ------------------------------
    -Phil Bondi
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-08-2018 07:19
    Has anyone considered a Chapter grant for sponsored research to find out the best solution to some of these questions?  There are some great questions and posts.  Science might apply to finding some real answers.  I know this is coming in on the solvent thread but the question applies to many others as well.

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    J
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  • 26.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-08-2018 08:50
    …or perhaps a PTG Foundation Research Grant?

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-08-2018 13:30
    Sorry, I can't help with the formula. I just put the flakes in the mason jar and cover with the 190 proof ethanol. I seem to end up with a usable concentration.

    I never weighed the ingredients or measured the ounces of ethanol.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-08-2018 13:43
    56g of shellac flakes + 4 oz of alcohol produces a standard 2 lb cut of shellac...which of course is WAY too thick for this application.

    Double the alcohol or half the shellac = 1lb cut...probably still too thick but is a good starting point. 

    Otherwise just do the math to produce other viscosities.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-08-2018 12:58
    Wow, I didn't know that.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Posted 05-06-2018 12:17
    Susan,

    Assumption that I use the acetone is for keytop material is incorrect. Never touch the stuff.

    Following on Ken Echete's experimentation, I have switched to B-72, which is a consolidant used in the museum conservation world. It is a plastic, but remains flexible. I never use keytops. I believe they use it for consolidating parchments and things like that. Used with acetone, in 45 minutes, it has completely flashed, and is presenting the  final tonal result...a major improvement for bringing up soft hammers on-site, vs lacquer which I didn't like to stat with, and have now ditched.

    I believe Ken and in conversation with Dan Levitan, both use Everclear (ethanol) as the solvent. A little slower than acetone in the flash time, but easier on the brain cells. I will be experimenting with the ethanol if I can find it locally...our liquor stores have shied away from carry straight ethanol. 

    Have used shellac in the past. You take on the temporary nature was my experience. 


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-06-2018 12:44
    Jim, I'm glad to hear you don't use keytop, and that you also experienced the temporary effect of shellac.

    Certain states do not allow the sale of 190 proof ethanol. You might check on the web to see if it's legal in any near you. While it is flammable and so strong it would hurt someone sipping it, it is certainly safer than the other solvents piano technicians often use. My local brand is called Clear Spring, no doubt a variation on Everclear.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-07-2018 15:07
    Jim -
    I think Graves Extra Fine XXX Grain Alcohol at 190 proof is the same.  On-line says that Everclear sale is illegal in Mass, but Graves is actually bottled in Somerville by M.S. Walker, Inc. Welcome to MS Walker.com
    If you reach customer service, they would be able to tell you who handles it in your area.   
    Anyone visiting you from Connecticut or Vermont anytime soon?

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Posted 05-07-2018 16:44
    I found some Everclear this morning at the corner Liquor store. I talked to the owner about it. She said up to 3 years ago they were not allowed to carry it, but now, for whatever reason, they can. This one says 195% or proof..I forget...its in the shop.'

    I asked her what the devil people do with it. She said a number of customers use it to make herbal tinctures...whatever...

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-07-2018 17:44
    It's excellent for herbal tinctures, and I've made some good ones with it.

    It's SUPERIOR for making shellac!

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-07-2018 19:52
    I bought my Everclear at Kappy's in Danvers, MA a year ago, when you (Susan) were talking about it then on some other thread. I made some shellac with it and it's still good.  But, I just made a new batch today, including superblonde.

    I use different colors for various touch up situations both on pianos and furniture. The superblonde will get diluted and used in the voicing kit as well now.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-07-2018 21:21
    A chance to get someone else's experience with this is so welcome!

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Member
    Posted 05-04-2018 11:50
    I would strongly advise getting something from a scientific supply company that will not dissolve, leak, crack etc. further mark the jar or bottle with labels that are appropriate you are dealing with dangerous stuff here that could cause all sorts of havoc and burn your shop down. it is a hazardous material. i store my ca glues in an orange ammo can with a flammable sticker on it. i can find it easily that way and store it in a location apart from others . all of my other bad stuff is in original containers . if it goes bad i bring it to a hazardous waste collection day. ideally you should have special cabinets for flammables in the shop including the step on cans for rags, cloth, oily rags that can spontaneous combust.

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-04-2018 13:32
    I use old herbal tincture bottles. They seal well, and even include a nice eyedropper. I've had ultrablonde shellac made from flakes and 190 proof ethanol (liquor store) last literally years without drying out or going gummy. I just stick the tincture bottle into a ziploc bag and leave it in my kit.

    Some herbs are more colored than others. Some are really nice to take in some water -- eleuthero (ginseng), spirit of peppermint.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2018 01:55
    The glass jars you want are often called Boston bottles and can be purchased  from a scientific supply company.  I use 50 and 100 ml bottles.  they can be purchased with polypropylene seals that are resistant to acetone and most other solvents. 

    100 ml is useful for car storage of an adequate amount.  50 ml will fit into my tool kit.

    Polypropylene is good but it will decay and eventually crack or leak (after about 10 years).

    One example:

    https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/30ml-60ml-100ml-120ml-amber-round_60423842033.html?spm=a2700.7724857.main07.90.1cad72f51Zm3dG

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-07-2018 10:43
    What I have done is to create a washer out of a bicycle inner tube. I cut a circle to fit the top of a glass jar, then use its original lid to hold it on. I use it for a jar of acetone to clean CA tips, and haven't needed to replenish in a couple years, so it seems to seal well.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 41.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Posted 05-07-2018 11:32
    RIght...this is what I just did, only with lumberyard rubber roofing. I don't know what the actual composition of bicycle inner tube is. If they are rubber(not sure) natural rubber comes up as a "D" rating on the acetone resistant materials list. I have a bunch of inner tubes for gasket material. I wonder what the the material composition actually is.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 42.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2018 10:35
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072RDMCNN/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apip_whXFeYewJEMrg

    ------------------------------
    Brad Fant, RPT
    Pasadena CA
    ------------------------------



  • 43.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-07-2018 13:53
    Bicycle inner tubes are made from butyl rubber, a synthetic known for chemical resistance and gas impermeability.  Seems like an excellent choice for gaskets on a jar of hammer hardener.

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    Michael Spalding RPT
    Fredonia WI
    262-692-3943
    ------------------------------



  • 44.  RE: Voicing solvent jars

    Posted 05-07-2018 17:35
    For Acetone, go to in the US, go to CVS and buy 100% acetone nail polish remover.  Its already in a plastic bottle ready to go.

    ------------------------------
    Jeffrey Gegner
    Tipton IN
    765-860-5900
    ------------------------------