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3D Printers and Action Brackets

  • 1.  3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-01-2018 18:21
    Does anyone know if a 3D printer would work to duplicate action brackets?

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    Rick Butler
    Bowie MD
    240 396 7480
    RickRickRickRickRick
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  • 2.  RE: 3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-02-2018 00:23
    Ya know Rick I've wondered the same thing for years.  I think this has come up before.  At the "Design to Build" expo I met a guy that came up with a formula that's stronger than steel  .....  or so he claims.  I'd be curious if anyone has looked into this.  Obviously YC doesn't want to commit the resources  .....  or has and isn't into production yet.  Mayhaps Mr. F Schwartz with the huge service desk from Kawai could chime in on this.
     
    Lar
     
     





  • 3.  RE: 3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-02-2018 06:16
    My daughter, who is an engineer with NASA ( working with the space station ), has asked on several occasions, why does't the piano industry jump on board and just start printing up obsolete or hard to obtain parts.  She thinks that once the price of 3D printers goes down and more people are taught how to use them, this WILL be the new frontier of replacing hard to find parts.  The Young Chang action bracket issue would be a perfect example.  I've asked Schaff several times why them haven't  start implementing 3D printers to create on-demand parts, and I always get the usual hem-and-haws why its  still not practical.
    Its interesting with the space station, if a latch on a door breaks, the engineers at Houston create a CAD blueprint of the part, send the code to the station, and viola....the part is printed on the space station.   Of course they have different metal elements on hand,  designed for internal and external uses. Pretty slick stuff!

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    Tom Servinsky
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  • 4.  RE: 3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Posted 04-02-2018 08:38
    probably for the same reason that CNC , for me, has never worked out financially for one off parts, though I have tried numerous times...ie, the part always ends up being way way more expensive than making the part, however inefficiently in your own shop. Many times I have priced out curved work that would be a cinch for CNC, only to find, that the machines and their owner earn 10 times what I as an artisan make. And, to boot, when you tell them its a one off, they have no interest, because even with the technology, one-off's are losing propositions. The administrative, CAD, machine setup, design time, and inevitable corrections, simply cannot be amortized in a one-off. 

    I think the difference is that expensive machines represent a huge capital expenditure that must be recouped. As an artisan, being somewhat paid in being able to enjoy my hobby/career on my own time, I don't have the same pressure to recoup capital investment, as enjoyment in what one does is not a capital expenditure.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 5.  RE: 3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-02-2018 08:58
    The printing of obsolete (or prototype) parts, etc was the very first thing I thought of when I first learned of 3d printing (after I got over the fact that this was not since fiction).

    I am mystified as to why it is not being done by anyone. I even assumed that Bruce Clark must have one in his office...Nope!

    And the whole idea is that it is supposed to encourage one-offs or limited runs due to greatly reduced overhead. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 6.  RE: 3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Posted 04-02-2018 10:39
    Judging from parts I've seen, affordable 3D printers aren't capable of fine enough work to make ready-to-install action parts. Printed parts would need considerable hand finishing. Maybe in another year?
    Molded parts, such as Kawai and WNG action parts can be very accurately made, and the cost of making the molds is far beyond small shop economies. The WNG modular parts system is a way of having one mold serve a large market. Bruce Clark is one clever guy!

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 7.  RE: 3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-02-2018 10:41
    I have a buddy who can make anything out of a 3D printer. He's offered to make piano parts for me before, but I haven't asked him to yet. He's very busy. Aside from his military service, he is an "amateur" drone builder. "Amateur" to the point where he consults  for some of the drone building companies across the country.

    He told me once that he could print anything. I asked him about printing a paintball gun for his drone. He looked at me and said, "could I? Sure. Will I? Nope! It's not legal here to print any type of weapon." But, if one can print something that complicated, then I think it would be more than possible to print piano parts. The main difficulty is in acquiring and learning the printer.

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    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
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  • 8.  RE: 3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Member
    Posted 04-02-2018 10:43
    I think I read someplace there are universities and product development centers that can help with prototyping and even print 3-D parts. This may be worth pursuing however I think trying to print some of the smaller, precise parts may be way beyond the ability of many printers.
    Action brackets look to me like they are cast from molds and machined for screws. I have seen wooden action brackets in older Chickerings and understand that they are quite stable so maybe that is easier to do then a 3-d made bracket.

    The one-off low volume of the tools and parts we use is a non-starter for most companies. I had some ideas for tools that a company actually considered but their design team did not see how it could be profitable. We are fortunate to have some of the great tools we have many invented by technicians. I would love to have the opportunity again to see the enormous tool collection that the late Paul Monachinno
    had of tools used in the factory. Maybe there are some tools worth considering making using current technology. The new WN&G
    tools , Flugelbauer tools, the Hart tool, Mannino broaches , Faulk tuning levers, Levitan lever and many others have made many jobs easier but we are a very specialized market.

    Perhaps we can start a brainstorming list of parts that are candidates or not candidates for 3-d printing, laser cutting, CAD/CAM, wood shop, machine shop.

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 9.  RE: 3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Posted 04-02-2018 11:37
    Hello to all from Argentina. In my case, bought a 3D printer and I’ made vertical piano flanges to tried.The people that I bought himthe printer maked the file. I had many problems to configure the printer, but this is the result.







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    Gabriel Lorenzi
    Piano Tuner
    Santa Fe
    54 9 342 5004440
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  • 10.  RE: 3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Posted 04-02-2018 13:31
    I recently got a Zortrax M200 printer. It comes along with a pretty good 3D printing software that reads stl files which can create meshes with higher or lower density, to get an optimal mix of weight/strength/stiffness. 

    Parts can be drawn using FreeCAD and exported to the stl file format readable by the Zortrax printing software. 
    Attached is a picture of a printed whippen, took about 3 hours to print. Probably interesting for anyone who wants to play around with own design ideas.
    Accuracy is pretty good, around 0.15 mm. You can even print the pin center holes (slightly smaller) and ream them up for hard bushings, or larger for conventional felt bushings. 

    Most interesting printing material is probably a carbon reinforced filament, both for action parts or brackets.

    regards,

    Bernhard



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    Bernhard Stopper
    Klavierbaumeister
    Tuebingen
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  • 11.  RE: 3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-03-2018 10:53
    To print the action bracket on a personal 3D printer (the cheap way) you're running into two problems: 

    1. You'll have to be content with printing in plastic meaning lower strength and size problems of your own. You can't just design something to be X inches long and have it come out exactly that way, because it "prints" with melted plastic and when the plastic then cools it shrinks the size of your part. 
    2. I imagine the size of the action bracket is larger than the print size of most personal/library/homedepot printers. I have a relatively large printer and its bed is only 8"x12". 

    There are other types of printers that allow you to end up with metal parts, but they are industrial printers, too expensive for common folks to buy and play around with. You could probably find companies willing to print your part for a fee though I'm not sure what the fee would be.

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    Anthony Willey
    Shoreline WA
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  • 12.  RE: 3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Posted 04-06-2018 04:29
    There's more to consider when using plastics and composite for piano parts than is obvious. Although I'm sure many can be 3D replicated to exact measurements and dimensions, characteristics of the composite parts such as nail and screw holding capacity, strength, weight, stiffness, as well as it's use and function on the piano, it's expected performance reliability, and life expectancy will need to be considered. 
    Action, Keys, Pedal etc undergoes hundreds if not thousands of gyrations on a single recital much more over the piano's lifetime, if there now exist technology and materials that match or surpass the original then perhaps this is the future. 
    Kudos to WNG who seem to be at the forefront.
    I had experimented on many parts including case moldings, inanimate decorative pieces, latches etc, with molded epoxy, polyester, fiberglass and carbon fiber, but as beautiful as they were none were ever used on our pianos because I could not  justify or predict what it would be in 100 years.
    Action Bracket? Ours had a threaded hole to which all rails were fastened and subsequently damper lifter rods hinges, came lose over a short period of time and some sort of powder came out of the thread. 
    Just my 2 cent, 
    Thanks

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    Richard Weinstein
    Arcadia CA
    415-767-9536
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  • 13.  RE: 3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Posted 02-21-2023 22:54

    I completely agree with you that personal 3D printers have their limitations, particularly when it comes to the size and strength of the parts that can be printed. As you pointed out, it can be challenging to print large parts using personal printers because of the limited bed size. Additionally, the use of plastic materials can also be a limiting factor in terms of part strength and durability.

    However, I think it's worth noting that 3D printing technology is constantly evolving, and we're seeing new printers and materials being developed that address some of these limitations. For example, there are now printers that can print with metal, ceramics, and other materials, which can result in stronger and more durable parts. These printers can be expensive, but as the technology becomes more widespread, we may see more affordable options in the future.

    In the meantime, I agree that outsourcing the printing of larger or more complex parts may be a viable option for those who don't have access to industrial-grade printers. There are many companies that offer 3D printing services, and while the fees can vary, it's always worth getting a quote to see if it's within your budget.



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    Jasm Charl
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  • 14.  RE: 3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Posted 02-21-2023 23:14

    This is a resurrection of a thread from five years ago. For what it's worth, Supply88 now supplies printed actions brackets that work well.



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    Floyd Gadd RPT
    Regina SK
    (306) 502-9103
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  • 15.  RE: 3D Printers and Action Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-23-2023 07:55

    And Schaff is making "obsolete" Chickering action flanges too. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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