Pianotech

I'm preparing an article and class on setting front segment string bearings during stinging and rebuilding. The goal is to specify what parameters will help strings render well and predictably during tuning. There's a lot to communicate about this, actually.

Problem: What terminology for what I think of, in my own mind, as "front segment friction bearings", would be best to use in published information. The terminology should be consistent with past use. It should also make sense to readers who have no clue what a "front segment" might be, and why they might care.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

By 'front segment' are you referring to the segment between the agraffe/v-bar and counter bearing
or the segment between the counter bearing and tuning pin.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2018 09:23
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Front segment terminology

I'm preparing an article and class on setting front segment string bearings during stinging and rebuilding. The goal is to specify what parameters will help strings render well and predictably during tuning. There's a lot to communicate about this, actually.

Problem: What terminology for what I think of, in my own mind, as "front segment friction bearings", would be best to use in published information. The terminology should be consistent with past use. It should also make sense to readers who have no clue what a "front segment" might be, and why they might care.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

The entire length, however divided, between agraffe/capo and the pin

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2018 10:03
From: Jon Page
Subject: Front segment terminology

By 'front segment' are you referring to the segment between the agraffe/v-bar and counter bearing
or the segment between the counter bearing and tuning pin.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2018 09:23
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Front segment terminology

I'm preparing an article and class on setting front segment string bearings during stinging and rebuilding. The goal is to specify what parameters will help strings render well and predictably during tuning. There's a lot to communicate about this, actually.

Problem: What terminology for what I think of, in my own mind, as "front segment friction bearings", would be best to use in published information. The terminology should be consistent with past use. It should also make sense to readers who have no clue what a "front segment" might be, and why they might care.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message------

I'm preparing an article and class on setting front segment string bearings during stinging and rebuilding. The goal is to specify what parameters will help strings render well and predictably during tuning. There's a lot to communicate about this, actually.

Problem: What terminology for what I think of, in my own mind, as "front segment friction bearings", would be best to use in published information. The terminology should be consistent with past use. It should also make sense to readers who have no clue what a "front segment" might be, and why they might care.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Hmmm...this is going to be hard to communicate.  I'm referring to the entire length of string from tuning pin to speaking length termination, be that agraffe or capo. In this entire length of wire, ie the "front segment" I am referring to, the string may traverse counterbearing bar(s), duplex rests (which are a type of counterbearing bar), various types of felt rests. I think of it as the entire non-speaking length system that contains the non-speaking length(s) of string, and all the various possible types of string rests, angles of termination the string traverses on its way to the pin.

I may have to invent a term and define it...but that's dangerous.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2018 11:10
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Front segment terminology

Jim,

If you're referring to the first termination point as the string leaves the tuning pin, Yamaha calls it the plate apron termination. Seems appropriate to me.

Roger

Original Message------

I'm preparing an article and class on setting front segment string bearings during stinging and rebuilding. The goal is to specify what parameters will help strings render well and predictably during tuning. There's a lot to communicate about this, actually.

Problem: What terminology for what I think of, in my own mind, as "front segment friction bearings", would be best to use in published information. The terminology should be consistent with past use. It should also make sense to readers who have no clue what a "front segment" might be, and why they might care.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Front NSL seems pretty good to me.

Just define your terms at the outset.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2018 11:43
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Front segment terminology

Hmmm...this is going to be hard to communicate.  I'm referring to the entire length of string from tuning pin to speaking length termination, be that agraffe or capo. In this entire length of wire, ie the "front segment" I am referring to, the string may traverse counterbearing bar(s), duplex rests (which are a type of counterbearing bar), various types of felt rests. I think of it as the entire non-speaking length system that contains the non-speaking length(s) of string, and all the various possible types of string rests, angles of termination the string traverses on its way to the pin.

I may have to invent a term and define it...but that's dangerous.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2018 11:10
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Front segment terminology

Jim,

If you're referring to the first termination point as the string leaves the tuning pin, Yamaha calls it the plate apron termination. Seems appropriate to me.

Roger

Original Message------

I'm preparing an article and class on setting front segment string bearings during stinging and rebuilding. The goal is to specify what parameters will help strings render well and predictably during tuning. There's a lot to communicate about this, actually.

Problem: What terminology for what I think of, in my own mind, as "front segment friction bearings", would be best to use in published information. The terminology should be consistent with past use. It should also make sense to readers who have no clue what a "front segment" might be, and why they might care.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Hi Jim,

Why don't you just take a picture, draw on brackets by hand or computer, then label each section as 1,2,3, etc. 

I know it's not the proper terms, but hey, it'll simplify your class. At least for me, numbers would be better than trying to remember which section is the "front apron termination segment." That might be well and good for engineers, but if this is for someone who has little or no experience with your subject matter...

Just my thoughts,

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2018 09:23
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Front segment terminology

I'm preparing an article and class on setting front segment string bearings during stinging and rebuilding. The goal is to specify what parameters will help strings render well and predictably during tuning. There's a lot to communicate about this, actually.

Problem: What terminology for what I think of, in my own mind, as "front segment friction bearings", would be best to use in published information. The terminology should be consistent with past use. It should also make sense to readers who have no clue what a "front segment" might be, and why they might care.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message------

I'm preparing an article and class on setting front segment string bearings during stinging and rebuilding. The goal is to specify what parameters will help strings render well and predictably during tuning. There's a lot to communicate about this, actually.

Problem: What terminology for what I think of, in my own mind, as "front segment friction bearings", would be best to use in published information. The terminology should be consistent with past use. It should also make sense to readers who have no clue what a "front segment" might be, and why they might care.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Hi Del,

I plan to reference your article from many years ago for some parts of this analysis.

You comment on "waste" lengths gives me an idea. The term "waste" is a negative, meaning, not important. This notion of the front segment being a throw-away unimportant string length accurately describes the lack of understanding of this segment's utility.  On the other hand "Speaking Length" is a positive which describes the SL's function. One option might be to invent a term that to some degree describes the front segment's function..."tuners length" would be possible, as 70% of a tuners job is contained in deducing the behavior and tension in that segment. I'll have to think about other positive descriptive terms.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2018 23:52
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Front segment terminology

Many years back I started referring to the string segment between the back bridge pins and the back bearing bar (whatever its configuration might be) as the "backscale." The string segment between the V-bar and the front bearing bar (again, whatever its configuration) was the "frontscale." 

My reasoning at the time was that the terminology of the day -- in back they were all "waste" or "dead" lengths and in front they were any number of things, none of which were consistent. The term "duplex" length seemed vague and diminished the importance of these string segments. As well, it seemed to me that all pianos have front "duplex" string lengths -- sometimes this duplex length would be "tuned" and sometimes not, but they were all duplex. 

When tuned both the frontscale and the backscale could be referred to as "aliquot," or "tuned" string segments.

Obviously, none of this was, or is, official. It was simply, at the time (1970s and 1980s), the best way I could think of to draw attention to the importance of these string segments -- they matter, they are not waste -- in the overall scheme of things.

ddf

--

Delwin D Fandrich

Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.

Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide

6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA

Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525

Original Message------

I'm preparing an article and class on setting front segment string bearings during stinging and rebuilding. The goal is to specify what parameters will help strings render well and predictably during tuning. There's a lot to communicate about this, actually.

Problem: What terminology for what I think of, in my own mind, as "front segment friction bearings", would be best to use in published information. The terminology should be consistent with past use. It should also make sense to readers who have no clue what a "front segment" might be, and why they might care.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Jim,

What is confusing, or non-descriptive about "non-speaking length" or NSL?  To me it's the most obvious and widely accepted term.

Of course, I could be wrong...

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-02-2018 10:33
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Front segment terminology

Hi Del,

I plan to reference your article from many years ago for some parts of this analysis.

You comment on "waste" lengths gives me an idea. The term "waste" is a negative, meaning, not important. This notion of the front segment being a throw-away unimportant string length accurately describes the lack of understanding of this segment's utility.  On the other hand "Speaking Length" is a positive which describes the SL's function. One option might be to invent a term that to some degree describes the front segment's function..."tuners length" would be possible, as 70% of a tuners job is contained in deducing the behavior and tension in that segment. I'll have to think about other positive descriptive terms.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2018 23:52
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Front segment terminology

Many years back I started referring to the string segment between the back bridge pins and the back bearing bar (whatever its configuration might be) as the "backscale." The string segment between the V-bar and the front bearing bar (again, whatever its configuration) was the "frontscale." 

My reasoning at the time was that the terminology of the day -- in back they were all "waste" or "dead" lengths and in front they were any number of things, none of which were consistent. The term "duplex" length seemed vague and diminished the importance of these string segments. As well, it seemed to me that all pianos have front "duplex" string lengths -- sometimes this duplex length would be "tuned" and sometimes not, but they were all duplex. 

When tuned both the frontscale and the backscale could be referred to as "aliquot," or "tuned" string segments.

Obviously, none of this was, or is, official. It was simply, at the time (1970s and 1980s), the best way I could think of to draw attention to the importance of these string segments -- they matter, they are not waste -- in the overall scheme of things.

ddf

--

Delwin D Fandrich

Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.

Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide

6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA

Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525

Original Message------

I'm preparing an article and class on setting front segment string bearings during stinging and rebuilding. The goal is to specify what parameters will help strings render well and predictably during tuning. There's a lot to communicate about this, actually.

Problem: What terminology for what I think of, in my own mind, as "front segment friction bearings", would be best to use in published information. The terminology should be consistent with past use. It should also make sense to readers who have no clue what a "front segment" might be, and why they might care.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

<or non-descriptive about "non-speaking length" or NSL?


It speaks in the negative. It says what it isn't not, rather than what it is.  And, it can be confusing because the duplex segment, especially a tuned duplex, is speaking. The duplex segment is part of the overall NSL.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-02-2018 11:05
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Front segment terminology

Jim,

What is confusing, or non-descriptive about "non-speaking length" or NSL?  To me it's the most obvious and widely accepted term.

Of course, I could be wrong...

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-02-2018 10:33
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Front segment terminology

Hi Del,

I plan to reference your article from many years ago for some parts of this analysis.

You comment on "waste" lengths gives me an idea. The term "waste" is a negative, meaning, not important. This notion of the front segment being a throw-away unimportant string length accurately describes the lack of understanding of this segment's utility.  On the other hand "Speaking Length" is a positive which describes the SL's function. One option might be to invent a term that to some degree describes the front segment's function..."tuners length" would be possible, as 70% of a tuners job is contained in deducing the behavior and tension in that segment. I'll have to think about other positive descriptive terms.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2018 23:52
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Front segment terminology

Many years back I started referring to the string segment between the back bridge pins and the back bearing bar (whatever its configuration might be) as the "backscale." The string segment between the V-bar and the front bearing bar (again, whatever its configuration) was the "frontscale." 

My reasoning at the time was that the terminology of the day -- in back they were all "waste" or "dead" lengths and in front they were any number of things, none of which were consistent. The term "duplex" length seemed vague and diminished the importance of these string segments. As well, it seemed to me that all pianos have front "duplex" string lengths -- sometimes this duplex length would be "tuned" and sometimes not, but they were all duplex. 

When tuned both the frontscale and the backscale could be referred to as "aliquot," or "tuned" string segments.

Obviously, none of this was, or is, official. It was simply, at the time (1970s and 1980s), the best way I could think of to draw attention to the importance of these string segments -- they matter, they are not waste -- in the overall scheme of things.

ddf

--

Delwin D Fandrich

Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.

Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide

6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA

Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525

Original Message------

I'm preparing an article and class on setting front segment string bearings during stinging and rebuilding. The goal is to specify what parameters will help strings render well and predictably during tuning. There's a lot to communicate about this, actually.

Problem: What terminology for what I think of, in my own mind, as "front segment friction bearings", would be best to use in published information. The terminology should be consistent with past use. It should also make sense to readers who have no clue what a "front segment" might be, and why they might care.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message------

Hi Del,

I plan to reference your article from many years ago for some parts of this analysis.

You comment on "waste" lengths gives me an idea. The term "waste" is a negative, meaning, not important. This notion of the front segment being a throw-away unimportant string length accurately describes the lack of understanding of this segment's utility.  On the other hand "Speaking Length" is a positive which describes the SL's function. One option might be to invent a term that to some degree describes the front segment's function..."tuners length" would be possible, as 70% of a tuners job is contained in deducing the behavior and tension in that segment. I'll have to think about other positive descriptive terms.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Jim,
For years I've used (and like) "front scale" and "back scale".  I prefer terms which are short, descriptive, can be applied to all (or most) instruments, and which are not translated from a foreign language.

------------------------------
John Rhodes
Vancouver WA
360-721-0728
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2018 09:23
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Front segment terminology

I'm preparing an article and class on setting front segment string bearings during stinging and rebuilding. The goal is to specify what parameters will help strings render well and predictably during tuning. There's a lot to communicate about this, actually.

Problem: What terminology for what I think of, in my own mind, as "front segment friction bearings", would be best to use in published information. The terminology should be consistent with past use. It should also make sense to readers who have no clue what a "front segment" might be, and why they might care.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Re: John's "front scale/back scale." Simpler? Yes. Accurate? Well, if we're dealing with a back scale with tuned aliquot, sure, parts of it. But the front segment isn't much of "chromatic scale", it's more a "harmonic noise generator," if that.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-02-2018 11:49
From: John Rhodes
Subject: Front segment terminology

Jim,
For years I've used (and like) "front scale" and "back scale".  I prefer terms which are short, descriptive, can be applied to all (or most) instruments, and which are not translated from a foreign language.

------------------------------
John Rhodes
Vancouver WA
360-721-0728

Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2018 09:23
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Front segment terminology

I'm preparing an article and class on setting front segment string bearings during stinging and rebuilding. The goal is to specify what parameters will help strings render well and predictably during tuning. There's a lot to communicate about this, actually.

Problem: What terminology for what I think of, in my own mind, as "front segment friction bearings", would be best to use in published information. The terminology should be consistent with past use. It should also make sense to readers who have no clue what a "front segment" might be, and why they might care.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

I've been calling the segments: tuning pin segment (t pin to counterbearing) and counterbearing segment (counterbearing to v bar), which is the front duplex in another context. Together I would call them "tuning and counterbearing segments" or the "front length." I try to avoid "front" because in verticals those segments are not in the front. On the other hand, the notions of back segment, or back or rear duplex are pervasive and are often used for so-equipped verticals. 

Numbering the segments, similar to what I did for damper wire bends in Pianos Inside Out, is another possibility though that forever leaves things abstract and incomprehensible for all but the most motivated readers.

------------------------------
Mario Igrec, RPT
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2018 09:23
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Front segment terminology

I'm preparing an article and class on setting front segment string bearings during stinging and rebuilding. The goal is to specify what parameters will help strings render well and predictably during tuning. There's a lot to communicate about this, actually.

Problem: What terminology for what I think of, in my own mind, as "front segment friction bearings", would be best to use in published information. The terminology should be consistent with past use. It should also make sense to readers who have no clue what a "front segment" might be, and why they might care.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------