Pianotech

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

Original Message------

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

I've messed with this a lot, trying to get really good soft check functioning consistently.  I was frustrated by check wires drilled and inserted at 72 deg. I have gone exclusively over to 90 deg drilling. The reason?

If you draw out the two check insertion positions in autocad or something like that, and go about, virtually bending the wire to move the head back and forth along the key (closer or farther from the tail), the geometry of the 72 deg insertion gives actually very little back to front adjustment. When you bend back, and correct the head angle to accommodate the new wire angle, the geometry places the head very close to the original front to back position, effectively getting you right back where you started. One can bend until the cows come home, and the head will be pretty close to its original front back position. 

If you nailed the insertion point, things may be fine...but I never nail that insertion point right on the money. Also, varied shank lengths to hit treble strike points in the treble will place the tail at different front to back positions on the key, making front back moves necessary. 

I need front to back adjustment of the head. The geometry of the 90 degree insertion, allows much more front to back adjustment, and that is my preference now.  Think about it...take an angled insertion. Bending the wire back swings the head mostly down and a little back. now the head is at the wrong angle...so you bend it forward, effectively undoing the previous bend, placing the head right where it started. On the other hand, with a 90 degree insertion, a bend back moves the head mostly back, not down, and a second bend at the head to correct angle, though undoing some of the 1st bend, is very minor, compared to the angled insertion.

This simple change in my procedure really helped me with soft check, and its easier to drill, insert and adjust to boot.    


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:53
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

David,

Not that it would make a lot of difference, but I would prefer not to bend the wire more than necessary. The 72 degree angle would make sense because the wire would be perpendicular to the hammer shank at check.

Roger

Original Message------

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

It's been awhile since I've drilled for wires but I seem to recall that it was best to drill at 90° to the key directly below the end of the shank in the rest position. When the wire is bent for checking, the backcheck it is at 68~72°. I'd like to note that the height of the b/c should be level with ot 2 mm below the hammer tail with the key held with the hammer in the 'drop' position.

One could figure it out mathematically by subtracting (overall hammer length + Let Off + Drop) from String height; That would be b/c height with the key fully depressed. One could also figure for the height above the key by measuring the end of the key's height when fully depressed from the keybed and subtracting that from the above mentioned equation. In theory :-)

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 23:18
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

I've messed with this a lot, trying to get really good soft check functioning consistently.  I was frustrated by check wires drilled and inserted at 72 deg. I have gone exclusively over to 90 deg drilling. The reason?

If you draw out the two check insertion positions in autocad or something like that, and go about, virtually bending the wire to move the head back and forth along the key (closer or farther from the tail), the geometry of the 72 deg insertion gives actually very little back to front adjustment. When you bend back, and correct the head angle to accommodate the new wire angle, the geometry places the head very close to the original front to back position, effectively getting you right back where you started. One can bend until the cows come home, and the head will be pretty close to its original front back position.

If you nailed the insertion point, things may be fine...but I never nail that insertion point right on the money. Also, varied shank lengths to hit treble strike points in the treble will place the tail at different front to back positions on the key, making front back moves necessary.

I need front to back adjustment of the head. The geometry of the 90 degree insertion, allows much more front to back adjustment, and that is my preference now.  Think about it...take an angled insertion. Bending the wire back swings the head mostly down and a little back. now the head is at the wrong angle...so you bend it forward, effectively undoing the previous bend, placing the head right where it started. On the other hand, with a 90 degree insertion, a bend back moves the head mostly back, not down, and a second bend at the head to correct angle, though undoing some of the 1st bend, is very minor, compared to the angled insertion.

This simple change in my procedure really helped me with soft check, and its easier to drill, insert and adjust to boot.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:53
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

David,

Not that it would make a lot of difference, but I would prefer not to bend the wire more than necessary. The 72 degree angle would make sense because the wire would be perpendicular to the hammer shank at check.

Roger

Original Message------

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

Original Message------

I've messed with this a lot, trying to get really good soft check functioning consistently.  I was frustrated by check wires drilled and inserted at 72 deg. I have gone exclusively over to 90 deg drilling. The reason?

If you draw out the two check insertion positions in autocad or something like that, and go about, virtually bending the wire to move the head back and forth along the key (closer or farther from the tail), the geometry of the 72 deg insertion gives actually very little back to front adjustment. When you bend back, and correct the head angle to accommodate the new wire angle, the geometry places the head very close to the original front to back position, effectively getting you right back where you started. One can bend until the cows come home, and the head will be pretty close to its original front back position. 

If you nailed the insertion point, things may be fine...but I never nail that insertion point right on the money. Also, varied shank lengths to hit treble strike points in the treble will place the tail at different front to back positions on the key, making front back moves necessary. 

I need front to back adjustment of the head. The geometry of the 90 degree insertion, allows much more front to back adjustment, and that is my preference now.  Think about it...take an angled insertion. Bending the wire back swings the head mostly down and a little back. now the head is at the wrong angle...so you bend it forward, effectively undoing the previous bend, placing the head right where it started. On the other hand, with a 90 degree insertion, a bend back moves the head mostly back, not down, and a second bend at the head to correct angle, though undoing some of the 1st bend, is very minor, compared to the angled insertion.

This simple change in my procedure really helped me with soft check, and its easier to drill, insert and adjust to boot.    


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:53
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

David,

Not that it would make a lot of difference, but I would prefer not to bend the wire more than necessary. The 72 degree angle would make sense because the wire would be perpendicular to the hammer shank at check.

Roger

Original Message------

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

Roger...I meant that the function is such that checking occurs at ppp blows.   I was not referring to feel of the checking but to baseline function.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 11:06
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Jim,

It's interesting to hear the different values one places on the feel of the piano action. Your comment "good soft check functioning consistently." is a feel that is antithetical to my preference of the piano action. I find it more comforting to "feel the end" of the function (in moderation) of the action movement; somewhat like the period at the end of a sentence. I find a sense of insecurity without that final signal. It's just my preference, like some musicians preferring a heavy hammer and some a light hammer.

Roger

P.S. To accomplish this "end of function" feel, I always checker my tails as it speeds up the checking process.

Original Message------

I've messed with this a lot, trying to get really good soft check functioning consistently.  I was frustrated by check wires drilled and inserted at 72 deg. I have gone exclusively over to 90 deg drilling. The reason?

If you draw out the two check insertion positions in autocad or something like that, and go about, virtually bending the wire to move the head back and forth along the key (closer or farther from the tail), the geometry of the 72 deg insertion gives actually very little back to front adjustment. When you bend back, and correct the head angle to accommodate the new wire angle, the geometry places the head very close to the original front to back position, effectively getting you right back where you started. One can bend until the cows come home, and the head will be pretty close to its original front back position.

If you nailed the insertion point, things may be fine...but I never nail that insertion point right on the money. Also, varied shank lengths to hit treble strike points in the treble will place the tail at different front to back positions on the key, making front back moves necessary.

I need front to back adjustment of the head. The geometry of the 90 degree insertion, allows much more front to back adjustment, and that is my preference now.  Think about it...take an angled insertion. Bending the wire back swings the head mostly down and a little back. now the head is at the wrong angle...so you bend it forward, effectively undoing the previous bend, placing the head right where it started. On the other hand, with a 90 degree insertion, a bend back moves the head mostly back, not down, and a second bend at the head to correct angle, though undoing some of the 1st bend, is very minor, compared to the angled insertion.

This simple change in my procedure really helped me with soft check, and its easier to drill, insert and adjust to boot.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:53
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

David,

Not that it would make a lot of difference, but I would prefer not to bend the wire more than necessary. The 72 degree angle would make sense because the wire would be perpendicular to the hammer shank at check.

Roger

Original Message------

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

I agree with what Jim said. I used to drill the hole for the BC at an angle. But I stopped because accuracy of drilling and ease of installation are maximized with 90 Degree holes. I set the height as high as possible in relation to the first hammers above the overstrung notes because these hammers are the most critical in dimension points that can create interference issues. I want hammers to fall into check with all types of held key strokes. The most difficult to achieve are checking with the soft blows. Hammers that "oscillate" between the BC and the top of drop interfere with a pianists control. It is all about controlling the movement and timing of the hammer.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 11:53
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Roger...I meant that the function is such that checking occurs at ppp blows.   I was not referring to feel of the checking but to baseline function.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 11:06
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Jim,

It's interesting to hear the different values one places on the feel of the piano action. Your comment "good soft check functioning consistently." is a feel that is antithetical to my preference of the piano action. I find it more comforting to "feel the end" of the function (in moderation) of the action movement; somewhat like the period at the end of a sentence. I find a sense of insecurity without that final signal. It's just my preference, like some musicians preferring a heavy hammer and some a light hammer.

Roger

P.S. To accomplish this "end of function" feel, I always checker my tails as it speeds up the checking process.

Original Message------

I've messed with this a lot, trying to get really good soft check functioning consistently.  I was frustrated by check wires drilled and inserted at 72 deg. I have gone exclusively over to 90 deg drilling. The reason?

If you draw out the two check insertion positions in autocad or something like that, and go about, virtually bending the wire to move the head back and forth along the key (closer or farther from the tail), the geometry of the 72 deg insertion gives actually very little back to front adjustment. When you bend back, and correct the head angle to accommodate the new wire angle, the geometry places the head very close to the original front to back position, effectively getting you right back where you started. One can bend until the cows come home, and the head will be pretty close to its original front back position.

If you nailed the insertion point, things may be fine...but I never nail that insertion point right on the money. Also, varied shank lengths to hit treble strike points in the treble will place the tail at different front to back positions on the key, making front back moves necessary.

I need front to back adjustment of the head. The geometry of the 90 degree insertion, allows much more front to back adjustment, and that is my preference now.  Think about it...take an angled insertion. Bending the wire back swings the head mostly down and a little back. now the head is at the wrong angle...so you bend it forward, effectively undoing the previous bend, placing the head right where it started. On the other hand, with a 90 degree insertion, a bend back moves the head mostly back, not down, and a second bend at the head to correct angle, though undoing some of the 1st bend, is very minor, compared to the angled insertion.

This simple change in my procedure really helped me with soft check, and its easier to drill, insert and adjust to boot.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:53
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

David,

Not that it would make a lot of difference, but I would prefer not to bend the wire more than necessary. The 72 degree angle would make sense because the wire would be perpendicular to the hammer shank at check.

Roger

Original Message------

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

Ed (and all),

Is there a consensus on the precise (and relatively easy) method for locating that hole in the key? And then the height of initial insertion of the b/c?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 22:54
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

I agree with what Jim said. I used to drill the hole for the BC at an angle. But I stopped because accuracy of drilling and ease of installation are maximized with 90 Degree holes. I set the height as high as possible in relation to the first hammers above the overstrung notes because these hammers are the most critical in dimension points that can create interference issues. I want hammers to fall into check with all types of held key strokes. The most difficult to achieve are checking with the soft blows. Hammers that "oscillate" between the BC and the top of drop interfere with a pianists control. It is all about controlling the movement and timing of the hammer.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 11:53
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Roger...I meant that the function is such that checking occurs at ppp blows.   I was not referring to feel of the checking but to baseline function.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 11:06
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Jim,

It's interesting to hear the different values one places on the feel of the piano action. Your comment "good soft check functioning consistently." is a feel that is antithetical to my preference of the piano action. I find it more comforting to "feel the end" of the function (in moderation) of the action movement; somewhat like the period at the end of a sentence. I find a sense of insecurity without that final signal. It's just my preference, like some musicians preferring a heavy hammer and some a light hammer.

Roger

P.S. To accomplish this "end of function" feel, I always checker my tails as it speeds up the checking process.

Original Message------

I've messed with this a lot, trying to get really good soft check functioning consistently.  I was frustrated by check wires drilled and inserted at 72 deg. I have gone exclusively over to 90 deg drilling. The reason?

If you draw out the two check insertion positions in autocad or something like that, and go about, virtually bending the wire to move the head back and forth along the key (closer or farther from the tail), the geometry of the 72 deg insertion gives actually very little back to front adjustment. When you bend back, and correct the head angle to accommodate the new wire angle, the geometry places the head very close to the original front to back position, effectively getting you right back where you started. One can bend until the cows come home, and the head will be pretty close to its original front back position.

If you nailed the insertion point, things may be fine...but I never nail that insertion point right on the money. Also, varied shank lengths to hit treble strike points in the treble will place the tail at different front to back positions on the key, making front back moves necessary.

I need front to back adjustment of the head. The geometry of the 90 degree insertion, allows much more front to back adjustment, and that is my preference now.  Think about it...take an angled insertion. Bending the wire back swings the head mostly down and a little back. now the head is at the wrong angle...so you bend it forward, effectively undoing the previous bend, placing the head right where it started. On the other hand, with a 90 degree insertion, a bend back moves the head mostly back, not down, and a second bend at the head to correct angle, though undoing some of the 1st bend, is very minor, compared to the angled insertion.

This simple change in my procedure really helped me with soft check, and its easier to drill, insert and adjust to boot.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:53
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

David,

Not that it would make a lot of difference, but I would prefer not to bend the wire more than necessary. The 72 degree angle would make sense because the wire would be perpendicular to the hammer shank at check.

Roger

Original Message------

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

Peter, read my last post.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2018 08:41
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Ed (and all),

Is there a consensus on the precise (and relatively easy) method for locating that hole in the key? And then the height of initial insertion of the b/c?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 22:54
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

I agree with what Jim said. I used to drill the hole for the BC at an angle. But I stopped because accuracy of drilling and ease of installation are maximized with 90 Degree holes. I set the height as high as possible in relation to the first hammers above the overstrung notes because these hammers are the most critical in dimension points that can create interference issues. I want hammers to fall into check with all types of held key strokes. The most difficult to achieve are checking with the soft blows. Hammers that "oscillate" between the BC and the top of drop interfere with a pianists control. It is all about controlling the movement and timing of the hammer.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 11:53
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Roger...I meant that the function is such that checking occurs at ppp blows.   I was not referring to feel of the checking but to baseline function.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 11:06
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Jim,

It's interesting to hear the different values one places on the feel of the piano action. Your comment "good soft check functioning consistently." is a feel that is antithetical to my preference of the piano action. I find it more comforting to "feel the end" of the function (in moderation) of the action movement; somewhat like the period at the end of a sentence. I find a sense of insecurity without that final signal. It's just my preference, like some musicians preferring a heavy hammer and some a light hammer.

Roger

P.S. To accomplish this "end of function" feel, I always checker my tails as it speeds up the checking process.

Original Message------

I've messed with this a lot, trying to get really good soft check functioning consistently.  I was frustrated by check wires drilled and inserted at 72 deg. I have gone exclusively over to 90 deg drilling. The reason?

If you draw out the two check insertion positions in autocad or something like that, and go about, virtually bending the wire to move the head back and forth along the key (closer or farther from the tail), the geometry of the 72 deg insertion gives actually very little back to front adjustment. When you bend back, and correct the head angle to accommodate the new wire angle, the geometry places the head very close to the original front to back position, effectively getting you right back where you started. One can bend until the cows come home, and the head will be pretty close to its original front back position.

If you nailed the insertion point, things may be fine...but I never nail that insertion point right on the money. Also, varied shank lengths to hit treble strike points in the treble will place the tail at different front to back positions on the key, making front back moves necessary.

I need front to back adjustment of the head. The geometry of the 90 degree insertion, allows much more front to back adjustment, and that is my preference now.  Think about it...take an angled insertion. Bending the wire back swings the head mostly down and a little back. now the head is at the wrong angle...so you bend it forward, effectively undoing the previous bend, placing the head right where it started. On the other hand, with a 90 degree insertion, a bend back moves the head mostly back, not down, and a second bend at the head to correct angle, though undoing some of the 1st bend, is very minor, compared to the angled insertion.

This simple change in my procedure really helped me with soft check, and its easier to drill, insert and adjust to boot.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:53
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

David,

Not that it would make a lot of difference, but I would prefer not to bend the wire more than necessary. The 72 degree angle would make sense because the wire would be perpendicular to the hammer shank at check.

Roger

Original Message------

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

I have gone through numerous algorithms, and ditched them all to do it simply and empirically.

-Regulate the action through final dip at least. (I go to reasonably close to final drop, personally) 
-Set the shank so hammer is at the checking height you want (check height is a matter of taste...I usually shoot for 7/16-3/8"). You need to know string height to do this step. I use a full 88 note string target for this measurement, as it gives string height along the entire compass. This allows you to locate the insertion hole accurately for differing shank lengths in the treble. 
-Hold the shank in this checked position by some means.
-Put an 18-22 deg top bend in the wire right up as close to the head as your bending pliers will allow (set the sliers with some kind of shim so you can repeat the severity of the bend). Keep in mind that if the pliers actually contact the head before bending, they will interfere with the head as you try to bend it. I shim the pliers down and 1/8 or something like that. 
-Hold the bent wire next the tail in a vertical position and mark on the key where the wire ends up.

This has worked better for me than anything else. The numbers given for positioning at rest assume all kinds of regulation parameters which probably will not apply to every or, in my experience, most circumstances. As the tuners say..."let the piano tell you".

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2018 09:43
From: Jon Page
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Peter, read my last post.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2018 08:41
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Ed (and all),

Is there a consensus on the precise (and relatively easy) method for locating that hole in the key? And then the height of initial insertion of the b/c?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 22:54
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

I agree with what Jim said. I used to drill the hole for the BC at an angle. But I stopped because accuracy of drilling and ease of installation are maximized with 90 Degree holes. I set the height as high as possible in relation to the first hammers above the overstrung notes because these hammers are the most critical in dimension points that can create interference issues. I want hammers to fall into check with all types of held key strokes. The most difficult to achieve are checking with the soft blows. Hammers that "oscillate" between the BC and the top of drop interfere with a pianists control. It is all about controlling the movement and timing of the hammer.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 11:53
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Roger...I meant that the function is such that checking occurs at ppp blows.   I was not referring to feel of the checking but to baseline function.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 11:06
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Jim,

It's interesting to hear the different values one places on the feel of the piano action. Your comment "good soft check functioning consistently." is a feel that is antithetical to my preference of the piano action. I find it more comforting to "feel the end" of the function (in moderation) of the action movement; somewhat like the period at the end of a sentence. I find a sense of insecurity without that final signal. It's just my preference, like some musicians preferring a heavy hammer and some a light hammer.

Roger

P.S. To accomplish this "end of function" feel, I always checker my tails as it speeds up the checking process.

Original Message------

I've messed with this a lot, trying to get really good soft check functioning consistently.  I was frustrated by check wires drilled and inserted at 72 deg. I have gone exclusively over to 90 deg drilling. The reason?

If you draw out the two check insertion positions in autocad or something like that, and go about, virtually bending the wire to move the head back and forth along the key (closer or farther from the tail), the geometry of the 72 deg insertion gives actually very little back to front adjustment. When you bend back, and correct the head angle to accommodate the new wire angle, the geometry places the head very close to the original front to back position, effectively getting you right back where you started. One can bend until the cows come home, and the head will be pretty close to its original front back position.

If you nailed the insertion point, things may be fine...but I never nail that insertion point right on the money. Also, varied shank lengths to hit treble strike points in the treble will place the tail at different front to back positions on the key, making front back moves necessary.

I need front to back adjustment of the head. The geometry of the 90 degree insertion, allows much more front to back adjustment, and that is my preference now.  Think about it...take an angled insertion. Bending the wire back swings the head mostly down and a little back. now the head is at the wrong angle...so you bend it forward, effectively undoing the previous bend, placing the head right where it started. On the other hand, with a 90 degree insertion, a bend back moves the head mostly back, not down, and a second bend at the head to correct angle, though undoing some of the 1st bend, is very minor, compared to the angled insertion.

This simple change in my procedure really helped me with soft check, and its easier to drill, insert and adjust to boot.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:53
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

David,

Not that it would make a lot of difference, but I would prefer not to bend the wire more than necessary. The 72 degree angle would make sense because the wire would be perpendicular to the hammer shank at check.

Roger

Original Message------

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

These little jigs guide the new backchecks into place and stop them at the right height. Add shims underneath as needed.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2018 10:25
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

I have gone through numerous algorithms, and ditched them all to do it simply and empirically.

-Regulate the action through final dip at least. (I go to reasonably close to final drop, personally)
-Set the shank so hammer is at the checking height you want (check height is a matter of taste...I usually shoot for 7/16-3/8"). You need to know string height to do this step. I use a full 88 note string target for this measurement, as it gives string height along the entire compass. This allows you to locate the insertion hole accurately for differing shank lengths in the treble.
-Hold the shank in this checked position by some means.
-Put an 18-22 deg top bend in the wire right up as close to the head as your bending pliers will allow (set the sliers with some kind of shim so you can repeat the severity of the bend). Keep in mind that if the pliers actually contact the head before bending, they will interfere with the head as you try to bend it. I shim the pliers down and 1/8 or something like that.
-Hold the bent wire next the tail in a vertical position and mark on the key where the wire ends up.

This has worked better for me than anything else. The numbers given for positioning at rest assume all kinds of regulation parameters which probably will not apply to every or, in my experience, most circumstances. As the tuners say..."let the piano tell you".

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2018 09:43
From: Jon Page
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Peter, read my last post.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2018 08:41
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Ed (and all),

Is there a consensus on the precise (and relatively easy) method for locating that hole in the key? And then the height of initial insertion of the b/c?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 22:54
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

I agree with what Jim said. I used to drill the hole for the BC at an angle. But I stopped because accuracy of drilling and ease of installation are maximized with 90 Degree holes. I set the height as high as possible in relation to the first hammers above the overstrung notes because these hammers are the most critical in dimension points that can create interference issues. I want hammers to fall into check with all types of held key strokes. The most difficult to achieve are checking with the soft blows. Hammers that "oscillate" between the BC and the top of drop interfere with a pianists control. It is all about controlling the movement and timing of the hammer.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 11:53
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Roger...I meant that the function is such that checking occurs at ppp blows.   I was not referring to feel of the checking but to baseline function.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2018 11:06
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Jim,

It's interesting to hear the different values one places on the feel of the piano action. Your comment "good soft check functioning consistently." is a feel that is antithetical to my preference of the piano action. I find it more comforting to "feel the end" of the function (in moderation) of the action movement; somewhat like the period at the end of a sentence. I find a sense of insecurity without that final signal. It's just my preference, like some musicians preferring a heavy hammer and some a light hammer.

Roger

P.S. To accomplish this "end of function" feel, I always checker my tails as it speeds up the checking process.

Original Message------

I've messed with this a lot, trying to get really good soft check functioning consistently.  I was frustrated by check wires drilled and inserted at 72 deg. I have gone exclusively over to 90 deg drilling. The reason?

If you draw out the two check insertion positions in autocad or something like that, and go about, virtually bending the wire to move the head back and forth along the key (closer or farther from the tail), the geometry of the 72 deg insertion gives actually very little back to front adjustment. When you bend back, and correct the head angle to accommodate the new wire angle, the geometry places the head very close to the original front to back position, effectively getting you right back where you started. One can bend until the cows come home, and the head will be pretty close to its original front back position.

If you nailed the insertion point, things may be fine...but I never nail that insertion point right on the money. Also, varied shank lengths to hit treble strike points in the treble will place the tail at different front to back positions on the key, making front back moves necessary.

I need front to back adjustment of the head. The geometry of the 90 degree insertion, allows much more front to back adjustment, and that is my preference now.  Think about it...take an angled insertion. Bending the wire back swings the head mostly down and a little back. now the head is at the wrong angle...so you bend it forward, effectively undoing the previous bend, placing the head right where it started. On the other hand, with a 90 degree insertion, a bend back moves the head mostly back, not down, and a second bend at the head to correct angle, though undoing some of the 1st bend, is very minor, compared to the angled insertion.

This simple change in my procedure really helped me with soft check, and its easier to drill, insert and adjust to boot.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:53
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

David,

Not that it would make a lot of difference, but I would prefer not to bend the wire more than necessary. The 72 degree angle would make sense because the wire would be perpendicular to the hammer shank at check.

Roger

Original Message------

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

90 degrees is the way to go. Checking adjustment does not change the angle as much. There is sometimes a need to adjust position of hole front to back to accomodate each action. On many, the original hole position is a good spot. Some testing may show a need to vary the postion in bass or treble to get the checking you want. 

Watch Backcheck Installation

YouTube		remove preview
Backcheck Installation Backcheck installation for grand piano View this on YouTube >

------------------------------
Daniel Berg
Lake Mary FL
407-884-1814
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:25
From: David Brown
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

Cool video.  Can you describe how you made the tip for the pneumatic chisel (I think its a chisel)

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2018 11:49
From: Daniel Berg
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

90 degrees is the way to go. Checking adjustment does not change the angle as much. There is sometimes a need to adjust position of hole front to back to accomodate each action. On many, the original hole position is a good spot. Some testing may show a need to vary the postion in bass or treble to get the checking you want.

Watch Backcheck Installation

YouTube		remove preview
Backcheck Installation Backcheck installation for grand piano View this on YouTube >

------------------------------
Daniel Berg
Lake Mary FL
407-884-1814

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:25
From: David Brown
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

Beautiful!

------------------------------
Tom Servinsky
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2018 11:49
From: Daniel Berg
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

90 degrees is the way to go. Checking adjustment does not change the angle as much. There is sometimes a need to adjust position of hole front to back to accomodate each action. On many, the original hole position is a good spot. Some testing may show a need to vary the postion in bass or treble to get the checking you want.

Watch Backcheck Installation

YouTube		remove preview
Backcheck Installation Backcheck installation for grand piano View this on YouTube >

------------------------------
Daniel Berg
Lake Mary FL
407-884-1814

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:25
From: David Brown
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

Got it!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-05-2018 04:49
From: Thomas Servinsky
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Beautiful!

------------------------------
Tom Servinsky

Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2018 11:49
From: Daniel Berg
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

90 degrees is the way to go. Checking adjustment does not change the angle as much. There is sometimes a need to adjust position of hole front to back to accomodate each action. On many, the original hole position is a good spot. Some testing may show a need to vary the postion in bass or treble to get the checking you want.

Watch Backcheck Installation

YouTube		remove preview
Backcheck Installation Backcheck installation for grand piano View this on YouTube >

------------------------------
Daniel Berg
Lake Mary FL
407-884-1814

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:25
From: David Brown
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

Many thanks to all who responded! So many clever ideas and forward thinking. The increased stiffness of the wire at 90° was kind of where I was headed with my thinking. Also the increased regulation capacity an advantage to 90° I think.

One more random thought.... the check end of the key sits lower than the front, yes? So as it rises the check moves farther away from the player until  the key reaches level or parallel. The tail sits well below level so also moves away from the player ( i know... the whole distal proximal thing...) with a much shorter radius.
So as the key rises the check and hammer tail move away from the player but the hammer much more quicky. Arcing reduces the thickness of the tail and effectively its distance from the backcheck.  Bill Spurlock had a great handout about this for the tail arcing jig saying with correct tail length and arc and correct check placement and adjustment that the space between the check and tail will remain roughly  constant as they rise together. I have found this to be the case for me. The check being mostly parallel to the hammer head at rest also is a good starting point as to angle for me.

Not sure if I am even asking a question but definitely sure I am missing something. Mainly curious if my thinking is reasonably clear on these points.

Very grateful for the group.

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-05-2018 08:44
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Got it!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-05-2018 04:49
From: Thomas Servinsky
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Beautiful!

------------------------------
Tom Servinsky

Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2018 11:49
From: Daniel Berg
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

90 degrees is the way to go. Checking adjustment does not change the angle as much. There is sometimes a need to adjust position of hole front to back to accomodate each action. On many, the original hole position is a good spot. Some testing may show a need to vary the postion in bass or treble to get the checking you want.

Watch Backcheck Installation

YouTube		remove preview
Backcheck Installation Backcheck installation for grand piano View this on YouTube >

------------------------------
Daniel Berg
Lake Mary FL
407-884-1814

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:25
From: David Brown
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

Yes, thank you for sharing this. Well done!

------------------------------
John Formsma, RPT
New Albany MS
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-05-2018 04:49
From: Thomas Servinsky
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Beautiful!

------------------------------
Tom Servinsky

Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2018 11:49
From: Daniel Berg
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

90 degrees is the way to go. Checking adjustment does not change the angle as much. There is sometimes a need to adjust position of hole front to back to accomodate each action. On many, the original hole position is a good spot. Some testing may show a need to vary the postion in bass or treble to get the checking you want.

Watch Backcheck Installation

YouTube		remove preview
Backcheck Installation Backcheck installation for grand piano View this on YouTube >

------------------------------
Daniel Berg
Lake Mary FL
407-884-1814

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:25
From: David Brown
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

Jim, it is a air rivet gun with a flush rivet set with leather glued on.
ATS PRO 2X RIVET GUN (METALLIC JADE) from Aircraft Tool Supply

Aircraft-tool		remove preview
ATS PRO 2X RIVET GUN (METALLIC JADE) from Aircraft Tool Supply ATS PRO 2X RIVET GUN (METALLIC JADE) - Express your individuality with our new ATS Designer Pro 2X Rivet Gun. You get the same rugged durability, reliability, and power of our Pro Rivet gun in an array of brilliant new colors that will set you apart from the ordinary. View this on Aircraft-tool >

Rivet gun works great for other piano stuff too
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_1rWdEUG_a8

------------------------------
Daniel Berg
Lake Mary FL
407-884-1814
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2018 11:49
From: Daniel Berg
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

90 degrees is the way to go. Checking adjustment does not change the angle as much. There is sometimes a need to adjust position of hole front to back to accomodate each action. On many, the original hole position is a good spot. Some testing may show a need to vary the postion in bass or treble to get the checking you want.

Watch Backcheck Installation

YouTube		remove preview
Backcheck Installation Backcheck installation for grand piano View this on YouTube >

------------------------------
Daniel Berg
Lake Mary FL
407-884-1814

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:25
From: David Brown
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

Daniel-

Very clever! Have you read the comments under the video? You created a bit of a firestorm......

------------------------------
David Brown
Garland TX
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-05-2018 15:43
From: Daniel Berg
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

Jim, it is a air rivet gun with a flush rivet set with leather glued on.
ATS PRO 2X RIVET GUN (METALLIC JADE) from Aircraft Tool Supply

Aircraft-tool		remove preview
ATS PRO 2X RIVET GUN (METALLIC JADE) from Aircraft Tool Supply ATS PRO 2X RIVET GUN (METALLIC JADE) - Express your individuality with our new ATS Designer Pro 2X Rivet Gun. You get the same rugged durability, reliability, and power of our Pro Rivet gun in an array of brilliant new colors that will set you apart from the ordinary. View this on Aircraft-tool >

Rivet gun works great for other piano stuff too
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_1rWdEUG_a8

------------------------------
Daniel Berg
Lake Mary FL
407-884-1814

Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2018 11:49
From: Daniel Berg
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

90 degrees is the way to go. Checking adjustment does not change the angle as much. There is sometimes a need to adjust position of hole front to back to accomodate each action. On many, the original hole position is a good spot. Some testing may show a need to vary the postion in bass or treble to get the checking you want.

Watch Backcheck Installation

YouTube		remove preview
Backcheck Installation Backcheck installation for grand piano View this on YouTube >

------------------------------
Daniel Berg
Lake Mary FL
407-884-1814

Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2018 12:25
From: David Brown
Subject: Replacing grand backchecks- Drilling angle

All-

A question for those of you who do this regularly. This relates to a new class I am preparing. When replacing grand backchecks , what is your drilling method- Use the existing holes regardless of their angle? Establish a new location and, if so,  drill angled or 90 degrees to the key? Other than the potential for  less bending, drilling the key and installing at an angle is more cumbersome for me than drilling 90 degrees. Is there a functional reason to drill at the desired  72 degrees that is talked about? It would seem to me the backcheck needs to occupy  the same place in relation to the tail  to function correctly regardless of how it is fixed to the key. Some difference in the resistance of the wire in check with a difference in angle? WNG drills at an angle. I guess it hasn't  been talked about that I remember. Perhaps another instance of a traditional way being preserved. Perhaps  I am also taking this a bit to seriously....

Many thanks in advance-

Best from Texas-

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David Brown
Garland TX
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