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California fires

  • 1.  California fires

    Posted 11-11-2018 17:53
    Hi,  Mike!
    Thank you for your concern 
    We had evacuated in 2 cars at 3am and went to my younger, rich cousin 20 miles away We are in full comfort and safety, their hospitality beats Marriott 
    Our neighbor managed to sneak and he send us a picture of our house 
    Everything is good,  just a heavy smoke 
    Many of my clients in all affected areas had lost their homes 
    Be well 
    Best to all 
    Isaac

    Sent from my iPhone

    On Nov 11, 2018, at 9:02 AM, Mike Kurta <mkurta1@charter.net> wrote:

        Isaac:  I'm concerned about all these fires we're hearing about and how close are they to you?  There was a mention about your town on the news.  We hope all is well with....
        Mike Kurta


    ------------------------------
    Mike Kurta, RPT
    N. Michigan chapter
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-11-2018 20:32
    An update:

    Kevin & Darcy Cory have lost virtually everything.  They moved to Paradise last Summer from Ventura.  Their business, Cory Tile Art, is gone.  All files, equipment, products, business building, home they lived in, trailer, gone as well as losing their cat.  Kevin sent me a text at 8:30 AM when the fire came down in the canyon and they were leaving in the van.  

    I spoke with both of them a couple hours ago.  They are safe and sound but only have the clothes on their back.  Fortunately, many donations of clothing are for pick up in Chico's Walmart where people can sort through items to take.  They were at a church shelter in Chico for the past couple nights and will be staying in a warm home with a much needed shower tonight.  

    It is hard to fathom the loss and destruction and our prayers are for all involved.  Kevin praised the firefighters, medical crews, police, rescue teams and support of all present.  We are grateful they are alive and well and do what we can from here to help.  They really have no room to carry items as I had mentioned shipping boxes of necessities.

    Lori & I will be in touch with them daily.  The death toll continues to rise as there are many still not accounted for.  Watching videos of 80 acres per 60 seconds burning is difficult to comprehend.  Our hearts break.

    --
    Dave Swartz, RPT
    Cory Products
    www.corycare.com
    dave@corycare.com







  • 3.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-12-2018 07:45

    Dave,

    What a horrible thing.  I spent many fun times at NAMM

    with the Corys.  They're probably not PTG anymore?  If

    they are, the disaster fund will be available.  If not, perhaps

    a go fund me ?  I'm in.  Please keep us posted.

    Ruth

     

    Ruth Zeiner

    215-534-3834 cell

    ruth@alliedpiano.com

     






  • 4.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-12-2018 07:59
    Thank you Ruth,

    No,  they are not in PTG any longer.  They had a remarkable tile/art business first in Ventura then moved to Paradise this past summer.  There is a go fund me page I've posted on FB.  
    This link is the one Kevin's sister set up (hopefully the link works)




    --
    Dave Swartz, RPT
    Cory Products
    www.corycare.com
    dave@corycare.com







  • 5.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-13-2018 18:21
    I emailed Isaac this morning, and he replies that he is back home. He had canceled appointments so he's doing shop work, keeping an eye on another fire six miles away. He sends best wishes to the list.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-14-2018 17:17
    I keep seeing a discussion under this thread with the first line or two.  I click on a comment and only see the same initial 5 comments and none of the "recent" comments.  Why are Susan Kline, David Skolnik, Karl Roeder and others able to follow and comment on a thread that it my world only has 5 comments?

    ------------------------------
    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-14-2018 18:51
    Tim, it's because they are recieving posts by email in real time or daily digest. Politics reared it's ugly head and was reported to be monitored. That's why this thread has not grown. People that agreed to the code of conduct are in danger of being given a time out.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-14-2018 23:28
    Some recent posts in this discussion do not adhere to the posted rules for my.ptg.org communities. Using Pianotech to argue about politics or complain about PTG policies are both inappropriate uses of this forum. This community exists for the polite discussion about piano technology. The majority of Pianotech users expect this community to be a place for respectful, mature exchanges about piano work, and the rules exist to uphold that interest.

    Some users have questioned why some inappropriate posts are deleted while others are not. This is because the my.ptg.org communities are basically self-moderated. There are no admins actively monitoring or moderating Pianotech, or any other PTG community. The admins only investigate a post if it is reported by a member of the discussion community via the "Mark as Inappropriate" option. If someone posts inappropriately and nobody reports it via the "Mark as Inappropriate" option, the admins will not be aware of the issue.

    If anyone is not familiar with the rules, please note that they are posted with the footer link at the bottom of the page at my.ptg.org.
    Here is the link to that information: Online Communication Rules - Piano Technicians Guild Professional Communities

    Thank you for your cooperation.

    ------------------------------
    PTG Administration
    Kansas City KS
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-15-2018 08:06
    Yesterday was a busy day, and I crashed before having a chance to respond to Larry Messerly's post but before reading the one from Administration, to which I am responding. (Note: as Susan Kline affirmed, some of us receive posts as email, in real time, and are thus not quite as vulnerable to editorial efforts). In framing what I was going to say, then, I thought it appropriate to generate a new discussion topic, out of respect for what 'California Fires' should represent, rather than to allow it to suffer the usual tangentialization (yes, it's a word), however that effort has never, in my experience, succeeded in doing more than creating two simultaneous discussions.  Now, with the entry of ADMIN, we're, for the moment, locked into this subject thread, regretfully.

    I apologize for not being as 'up' on the rules revisions.  I'm aware of the array of contretemps that have motivated the move toward some form of list-management, but I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the solution, if this is the result.

    In Admin post said:
    Using Pianotech to argue about politics or complain about PTG policies are both inappropriate uses of this forum.
    It would not seem much of a stretch to conclude that even the post I am now writing would be in violation of such a rule.  If this is the case, I would appreciate an active response by Admin, rather than simply letting it languish, and i'd want to see this issue taken up, immediately, on PTG-L.

    Thank you Chris, Susan, Ben, and Karl, and Tim, for helping to keep this discussion list real.


    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-15-2018 09:43
    The original intent of this thread was concern for friends who may have suffered loss in the wildfires.
    I am grateful for the administrators' willingness to take responsibility and accept criticism for removing off topic posts.
    I, for one, don't want this list to become a place for political venting. There are many places for that. Because of that I asked the administrators to look at this thread and they chose to remove some content.
    This site, created and hosted by PTG, is a public face of PTG, which has the right to limit discussion, just as you have the right to limit discussion in your home.
    For you folks who want to talk politics or share opinions beyond the intent of this list, why not just create a group email?
    Best regards,
    Ed

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-15-2018 09:56
    I am in the process of posting on PTG-L regarding this issue.  I will take the liberty of including Ed's post there, as, by c my reading, even his well meaning attempt to inform would, by my reading of the rules, be inappropriate here.  By moving it to PTG-L, we preserve the 'public face' of PTG, but lose the input of non-members (and those members who still don't choose to read that list).
    From this point on, any continuing discussion of the monitoring process here would seem to warrant administrative action.
    Please continue on PTG-L.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-15-2018 11:09
    I would like to remind everyone that the old listserver list was rolled over onto Google Groups. It is unmonitored and some folk there actually like to argue just for the sake of arguing. But it is not only about pianos, it's also about piano related and thoughts that can make the discussion wander at times. That wandering would not be allowed to happen here but it can sometimes be quite productive and group inspiring.

    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/pianotech


    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-16-2018 08:52
    I had not read all the way down when I posted my question to the earlier thread. Question answered.

    ------------------------------
    Cindy Strehlow
    Urbana, IL
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: California fires

    Posted 29 days ago
    We are living in difficult times. PTG was always a place to share education, values and friendships. I got on the my.ptg.org communities , worried about the welfare of people I care about. Happy to learn that Issac and Ed are safe!❤️ Still concerned about others.  Sad to see all the bickering, when our friends' and colleagues' lives, health and happiness are at stake!

    ------------------------------
    Diane Hofstetter
    Safe and Sound Hearing Healthcare
    Vancouver WA
    360-901-0563
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: California fires

    Posted 29 days ago
    Hi Diane -
    Actually, the 'bickering'  has been about an organizational process and has been kept pretty separate, mainly by moving the process discussion to PTG-L.  Part of us has to keep going, as the scope of the tragic circumstances is still impossible to grasp and will not resolve while we hold our collective breaths.  As always, duality.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-15-2018 01:57
    Tim, I can't speak for the others, but I get the lists delivered by email. It's a lot harder to censor email, because if the posts have gone out by email, there has been no time to censor them, and once sent they are sent.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-16-2018 08:13

    Between 1990, in 2000, I worked for the state of California doing natural resources management. Dealing with fires was a large part of my job; prevention, cleanup, and restoration. I was not in management, I worked in the forest. In this post I hope to clear up some misconceptions, and explain why prevention is not possible anymore. 


    The first misconception is the concept of forest thinning. Thinning a forest is destruction of habitat. A healthy ecosystem depends on dead trees, standing dead trees as well as those laying on the ground. There are scores of insects and birds that feed on or live in dead standing trees. Additionally dead trees slowly rotting on the forest floor are a critical part of an ecosystem.  Last, in order to thin forests, roads need to be built into the forest. Obviously that leads to a tremendous amount of ecosystem destruction. 


    Another problem is the actual management of these areas. There are multiple agencies managing them, federal, state, and local. These large bureaucracies are not designed to work together. Even if they get along, they may have different purposes. Sometimes those purposes  conflict.  Also in a large government bureaucracy the right thing to do doesn't get done. This is because there are power struggles among people, frequent personnel or political changes, conflicting agendas, and the slow moving wheels of a large bureaucracy.  Usually the people working in these agencies are good people, but the system just doesn't allow for efficiency. 


    As for prevention; periodic fires prevent massive fires. Throughout history forest fires have always occurred naturally and are the only healthy and natural way to maintain a thriving ecosystem. They naturally prevent the buildup of massive amounts of fuel.  However given the population density of California that solution is not  practical, except in small isolated areas. 

     

    Too many houses and communities have been built in areas where they absolutely should not be. Areas where it is impossible to prevent or defend a fire. But beyond that, there are simply too many people living in the state of California. The population far exceeds the carrying capacity of the land. Therefore only true way to prevent these catastrophic events is to very significantly reduce the population and number of buildings in California.  Obviously that is not realistic.

    David Weiss



    ------------------------------
    David Weiss
    Charlottesville VA
    434-823-9733
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-16-2018 08:24
    Well Dave - you're no help at all! :)
    Actually, that was extraordinary.  Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-16-2018 08:29
    Thank you, David. Very succinctly written.

    Deb






  • 20.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-16-2018 09:54
    Man's greed and inability to cooperate for the greater good at work!

    Well written, David. It really is good to have an honest, straightforward and experienced perspective on the matter.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-16-2018 10:40
    David --

    Thank you for your post. I grew up in Los Angeles. I still live here. I am very aware of all the things you mention and wholeheartedly agree with your descriptions of forest land management and how they should be treated. And boy howdy, the population HAS grown. Most who live here who didn't grow up here moved here because of the weather. Pity that the new standard of the two hour commute to cross the street doesn't keep people away. I would help thin the population by relocating but I've been unable to figure out where to go this close to retirement, which is something I'm not ready to do yet.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 22.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-16-2018 11:23
    Thank you, David, for giving us direct knowledge, something which seems so rare these days!

    So, the problem of people living in places at risk of fires seems very similar to the problem in places like Houston, where zoning and building permit standards were very lax. Now a lot of people are living in very dangerous and indefensible places. Come to that, I know of a small housing development in Waldport, Oregon, where houses were built on what, effectively, is a spit of sand 5 feet above the Pacific Ocean. What could possibly go wrong?

    People are so eager to rebuild, and they often have insurance money or disaster relief money. Is there some way to convince them to build in safer places? You're saying most places are already too crowded for that, but what's the alternative?

    I'm reminded of an old Pogo phrase: "We have met the enemy -- and he is us."

    I've been talking with Kris Anderson about the idea of sending unwanted but adequate old uprights to the ruined places, so musicians and music students once more have something to play on. Now I wonder -- how long would it be before these uprights, also, were burned or ruined by flooding?

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: California fires

    Posted 11-17-2018 08:39
    David,

    Thank you for that very cogent explanation.  It makes a lot of sense, especially your last point about overdevelopment and population density.

    ------------------------------
    Kent Burnside, RPT
    Franklin TN
    615.430.0653
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: California fires

    Posted 29 days ago
    I agree Kent! Thank you so much David for this well-informed post.

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: California fires

    Posted 29 days ago
    Real, first-hand expert information.

    You shall know the truth -- and the truth shall set you free from shouting at each other.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: California fires

    Posted 28 days ago
    As a resident of southern Oregon, I could easily imagine a similar fate for Ashland--much of the town, especially the expensive houses up the mountain with the views, are located in pretty densely forested areas. Even a 100-foot defensible space seems like a joke to me.

    --Thinning is simply not realistic for the vast areas of forest. There's simply too much forest, much of it inaccessible. The Klamathon fire, which was largely responsible for the smoke that filled the Rogue valley this summer, was (is--I think it's still smoldering) in a remote area. Few roads, very steep mountains. There's no way to thin (or rake) these remote areas. These burns, even at a distance, can severely impact local economies, especially ones that rely on tourism. Sending in crews to thin remote areas could even increase the danger with chain saws, trucks, or heavy machinery that can spark fires. There are some who think the fantastically expensive air drops actually make things worse. I heard one theory that the orange stuff (phosphates?) is a potent fertilizer, which causes easily combustible growth to spring up after a fire.

    --While fire breaks can be created, this open ground can fill with easily-combustible growth. Unintended consequences. It's not only hot dry weather that causes fires. Paradoxically, so does a rainy spring, which can cause the growth of combustible material.

    --While our biggest natural fire danger is dry thunderstorms, most of the the big fires have been caused by people:
    Fireworks in the big Columbia gorge fire (and many locally). It's hard to fathom why any fireworks at all are allowed to be sold in southern Oregon. We even had a fire started by an official July 4 fireworks show gone wrong.

    A couple of big recent fires were caused by guys out mowing and other activities. The Redding fire was caused by a car. We've had fires started by camping vagrants, one of which burned an entire neighborhood. Even dry grass can catch: my own neighborhood was almost wiped out, likely by kids smoking behind a building nearby. Note that we don't live in a heavily-forested area: it's just dry, period.

    People out here are demanding "solutions," but I'm not sure anyone has any. I've noticed many more dead and dying trees in the forests here, and neither the hotter summers nor the bark beetle infestation are helping. The smoke alone has caused a dip in the housing market.

    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: California fires

    Posted 28 days ago
    And I remember a few years ago, when a fire got right into the town of Los Alamos, New Mexico, when a "controlled burn" turned out to be less controlled than expected.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: California fires

    Posted 28 days ago
    All extraordinarily sobering, and, were it not for a few seemingly 'inappropriate'  posts, at least some of us would still be ignorant of the complexity.  Unintended consequences can be a nitch.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------