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Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

  • 1.  Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2018 09:14

    No, this is not one of those "new" sports being considered for inclusion in the Olympics. I'm taking about THE highest tuning pin torques I have ever encountered, by far. When the pins DO finally release, they move a lot, with corresponding changes in the pitch of the string (and the sound of a small caliber firearm being discharged!). Did not have a torque wrench with me, or the means of shooting video of what it looks and sounds like to tune this beast (although both of these items are on the agenda for the next visit). FWIW, there were a handful of pins, scattered throughout the scale, that were far more normal feeling.

    The piano is a hundred year old Steinway grand that has been restrung. Did not have time on that first visit to pull the action and examine the pinblock. In the mean time, I am left to wonder and speculate (not my favorite past-time, but in the absence of more data, it's all I have to chew on): Is it the original block, either treated with some disagreeable substance, or damaged in reaming, or restrung with too-large pins? Or could it actually be a new block, but so horribly drilled (too fast a speed and/or rate of feed? Dull bit? Too small a hole for the pin size used?), as to yield the worst feeling tuning pins I have ever encountered. It brought to mind someone describing breaking off a tuning pin (a pleasure that I have not personally had...yet) on a multi-multi-laminate Baldwin glue-block from the bad old days.

    Of all the thousands of pianos I have serviced, the feeling of the tuning pins on this one are off-the-chart to an extreme degree. Do these symptoms sound familiar to anyone? And if so, were you able to positively ascertain the cause?

    Thanks,

    Alan



    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2018 12:18
    Alan,

    Your description reminds me of the time I way overdid the CA treatment on one tuning pin. I thought I was going to break that thing right off. Once I finally unfroze it, it had the symptoms you describe. Old pinblock, Steinway.

    Needless to say I learned from that. However I think you would see evidence of CA application if that was done on your piano.

    I have had a Baldwin here and there that could compare to it.

    Perhaps "exercising" the pins a bit might wear it out enough to make it comfortable.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Member
    Posted 05-29-2018 16:52
    one quick way to make a diagnosis is to have had a tuning pin gauge in the bag. also have a torque wrench in your vehicle you never know when a beast will come along.  we had a baldwin grand at nbss that was brutal . it had accujust hitch pins not a problem until you break one which was a fear. it was like trying to saddle break a horse or break the frozen tire nuts on your car to change a flat. true to form we called it "the Beast"

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-30-2018 10:10
    Kevin,

    Thanks for your tale. The cause of this problem could well be something along the lines of what you posit.


    Jon,

    Thanks for your input on this. I always take your advice to heart. Did you remove the coils from the tuning pins before commencing with all of the wrenching back-and-forth with the tuning pins? Maybe it would not be worth the trouble to pull all of those beckets, if you only lost one of them in the process.

    Not relishing the idea of sixty back-and-forth rotations times 230-some-odd of these super-tight tuning pins. Have you ever considered removing the beckets and then pulling the pin with a drill motor, completely or only partially, and then either turning or pounding  them back in? 


    Peter,

    Yes, could be CA treatment overdone, although did not notice any evidence of such upon initial inspection.


    Fred,

    Appreciate your comments, as always. Based on what you and Jon have written, I am planning on taking the worst of the bunch in the tenor section, remove the wire from both tuning pins, wrench one back and forth 20-30 times (as per Jon's protocol), remove the other pin with a drill motor (if I can!), inspect the threads for contamination, make an intuitive decision as to whether to drill or pound the pin back in, and do it. If it is STILL too tight (!!!), then I will remove the pin again and drill out the hole.


    James,

    The diagnosis is that 98% of the tuning pins are way too freaking tight! As stated in my OP, I did not have the time to bring tools not in my primary kit into play. I am sure that the torque of these pins is off the chart of the torque wrench in my stringing kit, anyway. Yes, it would be of interest to know the tuning pin size and torque. but regardless of those facts, the same problem remains to be solved.  Did you have a suggested remedy? Do you recall any successful efforts to tame that Beast at NBSS (not tuning techniques, but method for resolving the issue of grossly excessive tuning pin torque)?


    All best,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Posted 05-30-2018 15:41
    There is some notion out there that drilling a block is so easy, anyone with a $150 drill press can do it.  I think this notion does us all a disservice.

    Hitting a reasonable starting torque that does not turn to mush in 5 years is actually quite difficult to pull off. My own blocks, despite herculean efforts, are tighter than I would like...between 150-175 to start. Take a pin without a string in a test block at 175inlb, and add string tension and you've upped the torque to 200. 

    Private discussions with serious rebuilders, folks who are good enough to be honest with themselves, has them reporting the same difficulties...easy to get too mushy, aged mush factor + ambient site conditions unknown, so they go a bit tight. 

    Ron's famous two pass drill ream, so easy a child could do it, was targeting 175inlb. 

    Alan, this sounds like in the 250+ range...my condolences.  Are you going to have to experiment in someone's living room?


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-30-2018 17:12
    Jim wrote:
    "Are you going to have to experiment in someone's living room?"

    Yep. Jealous, huh? ;-)

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Posted 05-30-2018 19:25
    <Yep. Jealous, huh? ;-)

    Ughh

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-31-2018 07:52
    Though I have asked this question of rebuilders and dealers, and I know that what Jim says is true, I am still wondering, and wondering hard, about what has changed. We all have worked on old pianos with great-tuning pin torque. When I started out in this business, near 40 years ago, that was the rebuilder's goal, to get them medium tight and smooth like a Steinway. Now this. What changed?

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    Cindy Strehlow
    Urbana, IL
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  • 9.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Posted 05-30-2018 16:05
    I would think that removing the coil from the pin, removing the pins, reaming the block, replacing the coil and driving the pin in; would take longer. It was a good workout. You develop a rhythm of half-turns back & forth.
    In one sweeping motion: Pull the hammer towards you with your right hand, when the handle is pointing at you; switch to pushing with your left. Pull the hammer towards you with your left hand, when the handle is pointing at you; switch to pushing with your right. Pull the hammer towards you with your right hand, when the handle is pointing at you; switch to pushing with your left. Pull the hammer towards you with your left hand, when the handle is pointing at you; switch to pushing with your right. Pull the hammer towards you with your right hand, when the handle is pointing at you; switch to pushing with your left. Pull the hammer towards you with your left hand, when the handle is pointing at you; switch to pushing with your right. Pull the hammer towards you with your right hand, when the handle is pointing at you; switch to pushing with your left. Pull the hammer towards you with your left hand, when the handle is pointing at you; switch to pushing with your right. Pull the hammer towards you with your right hand, when the handle is pointing at you; switch to pushing with your left. Pull the hammer towards you with your left hand, when the handle is pointing at you; switch to pushing with your right. Pull the hammer towards you with your right hand, when the handle is pointing at you; switch to pushing with your left. Pull the hammer towards you with your left hand, when the handle is pointing at you; switch to pushing with your right. Repeat as needed.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-31-2018 21:40
    Alan,
    Since your plan is to have a load of fun with this project, you might even try some chemical experiments, i. e., wicking powdered rosin (colophony) dissolved in denatured alcohol around the pin to see if that lessens the workout Jon suggested?

    Joe Wiencek NYC.




  • 11.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-31-2018 23:15
    Joe, my plan IS to have a load of fun with EVERY project (doesn't always work out that way, though…), and yes, that often includes chemicals (for the piano, of course ;-). Thanks for the suggestion. Has anyone out there tried this?

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Member
    Posted 05-30-2018 18:50
    Alan... I think the piano went into the shop and they worked on the pin block, restrung it etc. it was used in training 9 months of the year 5 days a week . For some reason one of my classmates had the ability to settle the pins quickly. Maybe he had a keen sense of touch or a super power . I had a job here at a theater and had to tune a white Baldwin that every tech I knew had tried to wrestle with. Maybe I got lucky because it went smoothly despite the fact I did the tuning at 3 am . Maybe the large coffee I was sipping gave me good feedback

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Posted 05-31-2018 09:22
    Alan,
    Wanna borrow my 4 IronIRdgZQLTzqryQVx8P5xA_4-iron.jpg

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-31-2018 09:31
    Now THAT is a thing of beauty, Jim!

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-31-2018 19:51
    You could try squirting some Protek in there. One never knows...😉

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Posted 05-31-2018 21:18
    Forgo the synthetic lube, elbow grease is what it needs.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-31-2018 23:10
    Peter,

    If this were a piano that was getting a new pin block, it would definitely be time for some experimentation on this block. If some kind of lubricant would work, it would be such a faster remedy. Can't help but think that it's just not the right thing to do, but who knows? Has anyone out there tried using a lubricant on super-tight tuning pins? No one has chimed in yet that they have, but if some body has experience with this, I would sure like to know about it right about now, either on the list or off.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Posted 06-01-2018 08:09
    I have put teflon powder on a new pin before inserting it into a new block.  It reduced torque significantly, and also made the CCW release too easy.  It was a one shot-not-repeated experiment.

    Depending on how tight this sucker is, (a torque wrench would be useful in assessing), I would wind a pin out, maybe apply one drop CA to the entry portion of the hole, and drive the same pins back in. My thinking is that the entry point of the hole would be worn but the lower portion of the hole only moderately reamed.   

    I always coat pins with powdered high quality violin bow rosin.  This seems to keep pins from cracking and jumping. I buy the rosin in flake form. Double bag it in sandwich bags and pound on the concrete shop floor powders it quite quickly. I have purchased rosin in powdered form, however, the powdered form comes with talc or other impurities, and I did not like the performance as much as the plain high quality flakes.       http://www.rosin-depot.com/Rosin_Brazil.html  

    Joe Weinick's suggestion of rosin dissolved in alchohol is something that might be useful...I personally would give it a try, as long as I were experimenting.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2018 22:31
    Jim,

    I have amassed a small arsenal of torque wrenches, with various ranges. Will let you know what I find.

    For coating tuning pins before driving them in, I have used a substance called "saupek" (sp?). Richard Davenport picked this up on a trip to Bosendorfer. If memory serves, it is made from ground up pigs hooves. Yields a similar result as what you describe getting from rosin (which would clearly be the vegetarian's choice!).

    I plan to bring along some of Joe's solution. Never can tell what might work until you try it, right?

    Alan

    P. S So, do you have that four iron in my color? ;-)

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2018 08:29
    Turn the pins back and forth using a long handled hammer.  We have 60-70% RH year round in Orlando.  Blocks are tight, and pianos often  measure 200 pound torque.  I have a Fujan with an 18 " handle, or extend my Schaff hammer all the way.  Before setting, I'll often work the pin back and forth a few times, then go for the set.  after about a dozen tunings, the pins tend to settle down to a more tunable 150 pounds torque.   What you don't want to do is use a short tuning lever and put all that strain on your body parts.

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    Bob Maret, RPT
    Orlando FL
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  • 21.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2018 22:35
    Bob,

    Yes, I am definitely thinking less lunkhead and more Achimedes on this one! In the process of assembling a very long Fujan lever by combining various carbon fiber tubes.

    Thanks for your input,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------