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Question: Klacking keys

  • 1.  Question: Klacking keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2018 01:18
    Klacking as opposed to Quacking or Squawking.

    Lovely 2001 Estonia L baby grand. With the exception that whenever a key is released everything in that key bounces and goes klackety-klack. I did some very minor regulation and voicing on it about eight years ago and it continues to perform and sound well. Except for the klackety-klack. Customer has not mentioned it so neither have I, but I want to know more about what is happening because I, personally, am annoyed that it is happening.

    Regulation is good
    All screws are tight
    Hammer flanges give between three and five swings
    Wippen springs are set just about perfect
    Key bushings are acceptable
    Key height, dip are correct

    Yet, every time a key is released the hammer drops and bounces several times causing the action to sound klackety.

    In the process of testing different things I notice that even though the knuckle has been Teflon lubed and is really nice and soft, still, when the knuckle falls onto the top of the wippen/jack it produces a klack. When the key falls to the bottom it produces a klack. The only thing I noticed that may be a contributing factor is the fact that the back of the key does not actually rest on the key rest felt. It floats just slightly above it which, I'm sure, is the cause of the bounce and quite probably the klack since nothing actually has a defined rest spot. 

    How can I get the keys to actually rest on the rest rail without having to do a complete start from scratch regulation? Or am I just stuck with that?

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 2.  RE: Question: Klacking keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2018 01:27
    Hi Geoff:
    FWIW, I had a Baldwin upright studio that had clacking keys. What I ended up doing was tightening the balance rail hole by rubbing over the balance rail hole with a blunt flat bladed screwdriver (or whatever you got). Maybe glue-sizing the hole, whatever it takes to tighten the fit of the key on the pin. It will slow down the "bounce" of the key. It seemed to get rid of the clacking, rattling sound.
    Good luck.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego


    Geoff Sykes:
    Klacking as opposed to Quacking or Squawking.

    Lovely 2001 Estonia L baby grand. With the exception that whenever a key is released everything in that key bounces and goes klackety-klack. I did some very minor regulation and voicing on it about eight years ago and it continues to perform and sound well. Except for the klackety-klack. Customer has not mentioned it so neither have I, but I want to know more about what is happening because I, personally, am annoyed that it is happening.

    Regulation is good
    All screws are tight
    Hammer flanges give between three and five swings
    Wippen springs are set just about perfect
    Key bushings are acceptable
    Key height, dip are correct

    Yet, every time a key is released the hammer drops and bounces several times causing the action to sound klackety.

    In the process of testing different things I notice that even though the knuckle has been Teflon lubed and is really nice and soft, still, when the knuckle falls onto the top of the wippen/jack it produces a klack. When the key falls to the bottom it produces a klack. The only thing I noticed that may be a contributing factor is the fact that the back of the key does not actually rest on the key rest felt. It floats just slightly above it which, I'm sure, is the cause of the bounce and quite probably the klack since nothing actually has a defined rest spot.

    How can I get the keys to actually rest on the rest rail without having to do a complete start from scratch regulation? Or am I just stuck with that?

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA





  • 3.  RE: Question: Klacking keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2018 01:52
    Maybe some more information? What is the friction in the wippen flanges?  And the repetition lever centers? Have you measured the grams of friction in the hammer centers?

    Are the balance rail holes too free?

    How strongly front-weighted are the keys?

    Is the back check geometry all right? Are hammers getting into check? And how fast are they rising out of check?

    A keystick should of course not float above the backrail cloth! Have you tried driving out some lead in particularly offensive keys? Is there something restraining the spring so that the repetition lever can't support the hammer? You say wippen springs are about perfect. Do you mean that it has wippen-assist springs? What happens if you release a few of the springs? Do the keysticks then agree to rest on the back rail felt?

    Do you think that whoever set up this action was trying to solve a problem caused by its geometry, such as too high a down-weight? Is there adequate after-touch and drop?

    That said, I remember back in my warranty trouble-shooting days working like mad to get rid of a sympathetic ring almost like a musical tone ("pong")when the knuckle came down on the repetition lever.  This problem was incredibly stubborn -- and other actions of the same (Korean) model of grand piano didn't have it. One can really go crazy over things like this. Of course one's ego feels really good if one can finally nail it. I didn't really nail that one. The best I could do to make it a little less loud was to jam scrap hammer felt blocks under the hammer rest rail, to absorb some of the resonance in the wooden parts.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 4.  RE: Question: Klacking keys

    Posted 10-19-2018 08:52
    The only ways the key cannot sit on the backrail cloth is if the balance hole is restricting movement, if the balance button bushing is restraining movement, or if the back of the key, right behind the balance hole is bottoming out on the wood of the balance rail.

    Lift the whip off the capstan and test for the klack. This will eliminate top action noises as the possible culprit.

    My money is on the balance hole being maple or something hard, the balance hole not being relieved inside the mortise and restricting full movement of the key. Though the key in back of the balance hole hitting the balance rail should also be checked. I don't see how it is possible for the key level to be consistent, or dip correct, or regulation correct, if the key is off the back felt. The back felt in combination with balance punchings and front punchings defines dip. Change any one of those, and dip is history. 

    I would not proceed with anything until that key back is resting where it belongs. Figure out that problem and chances are very high you will know the culprit. 

     


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Question: Klacking keys

    Posted 10-19-2018 08:56
    Careful assuming back of key is not resting on the backrail felt. Often the end of the key is apparently not contacting, but further up on the back of the key, where you can't easily see, it is in fact contacting in a small area.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Question: Klacking keys

    Posted 10-19-2018 09:05
    One source of noise could be hard wippen cushion felt. You might consider installing underfelt. As Jim mentioned, the key might be resting on a portion of the back rail felt more forwards. If it is off the rail, the balance rail mortice is impeding key motion. Maybe the b/r hole is too tall.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Question: Klacking keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2018 09:26
    Hi Geoff:
    You might check to see if the hammer shank is hitting the balancier screw which regulates jack height in the window. I've seen that before. If the hammer rest rail allows the hammer shank to go below a certain point, it may hit the screw and make a click. Hammer bouncing is normal. But that's what the hammer rest rail or cushion is supposed to do, to make sure the shank doesn't go too far down.
    Another click sound is a backcheck hitting the sostenuto rail blade, but that may not be relevant here.
    Do you get a clack if the action is outside the piano? You'll of course have to shim up the action to recreate the dip.
    Pics would help.
    And, of course, if the tree falls in the forest and nobody hears.. sleeping dogs come to mind. If you point out the problem, it may lead to angst if you can't fix it. But I sympathize. I can't stand it when there's an obvious problem that I"m unable to fix.
    Paul McCloud
    San D Eggo


    Geoff Sykes:
    Klacking as opposed to Quacking or Squawking.

    Lovely 2001 Estonia L baby grand. With the exception that whenever a key is released everything in that key bounces and goes klackety-klack. I did some very minor regulation and voicing on it about eight years ago and it continues to perform and sound well. Except for the klackety-klack. Customer has not mentioned it so neither have I, but I want to know more about what is happening because I, personally, am annoyed that it is happening.

    Regulation is good
    All screws are tight
    Hammer flanges give between three and five swings
    Wippen springs are set just about perfect
    Key bushings are acceptable
    Key height, dip are correct

    Yet, every time a key is released the hammer drops and bounces several times causing the action to sound klackety.

    In the process of testing different things I notice that even though the knuckle has been Teflon lubed and is really nice and soft, still, when the knuckle falls onto the top of the wippen/jack it produces a klack. When the key falls to the bottom it produces a klack. The only thing I noticed that may be a contributing factor is the fact that the back of the key does not actually rest on the key rest felt. It floats just slightly above it which, I'm sure, is the cause of the bounce and quite probably the klack since nothing actually has a defined rest spot.

    How can I get the keys to actually rest on the rest rail without having to do a complete start from scratch regulation? Or am I just stuck with that?

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA





  • 8.  RE: Question: Klacking keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2018 11:49
    "The only thing I noticed that may be a contributing factor is the fact that the back of the key does not actually rest on the key rest felt. It floats just slightly above it "

    I would think some part of the back of the key rests on something else key height would be crazy to keep consistent. Whatever it is might be part of the issue. 

    I have a Weber (Young Chang) where the jack regulating button is so hard it "thwacks" against the "spoon"when the jack resets . Really loud action. 


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    Sent from my iPhone





  • 9.  RE: Question: Klacking keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-20-2018 12:02
    I had the “spoon felt” on the jack clicking a while back. Needling it with the chopstick needles solved the problem.

    Sincerely,

    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805) 315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com




  • 10.  RE: Question: Klacking keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2018 11:09
    Geoff,
    I've never encountered a key not resting on the back rail felt – obviously you're not referring to the hammer shank not resting on the shank rest strip. Could it be as simple as the key up-stop rail adjusted too far down?
    Roger





  • 11.  RE: Question: Klacking keys

    Member
    Posted 10-19-2018 13:11
    Have you tried using an electronic or even a mechanics stethescope to track down the noise ? how is the felt on the key stop rail and the felt on the hammer shank rebound rail ? sometimes noises are blended together and can becoming from several sources. Aluminum rails in the action stack have an amplification effect. Do any of the notes not have the sound ? sometimes you can track down the noises by swapping places with parts. Klack to me sounds like wood to wood contact or too thin /hard felt. Maybe there is too much dried glue on some felts. Try some small pieces of new key back rail felt. Also swap out some of the front key pin felt washers that may be better shock absorbers and less compacted
    how about taking a short video with sound and posting it for us to analyze . if you have an ipad or iphone its easy to do

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Question: Klacking keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2018 13:18
    On high use pianos I find that brushing the knuckles with a wire brush helps a lot.  I use a brush with nylon bristles or even brass.  I usually follow that with powdered teflon and regulating jack placement.  

    If the keys don't rest on the back rail though you may have bigger fish to fry.... The only times I can recall finding that however is when a paper clip or something has found its way under the back of the key.

    Chris

    Christopher D. Purdy R.P.T.
    Registered Piano Technician
    School of Music, Ohio University
    Rm. 311, Robt. Glidden Hall
    Athens, OH  45701
    Office (740) 593-4230
    Cell    (740) 590-3842
    fax      (740) 593-1429
    http://www.ohiou.edu/music






  • 13.  RE: Question: Klacking keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-20-2018 00:06
    Lots of good replies here everyone. Thanks! Many suggestions I've already covered but many I had not thought of. Which is why I posted here. For the stuff I did not think of. Gonna make notes so I remember these things and look into it again, with new eyes ,on my next visit. Again, customer has never mentioned this to me. I'm interested because I'm bothered by the noise. But with this new list of insights I will now surely find the cause should the customer actually bring it up before my next visit. 

    Thanks !

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 14.  RE: Question: Klacking keys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-20-2018 10:13
    But with this new list of insights I will now surely find the cause should the customer actually bring it up before my next visit.  


    And thanks to this list, it's creation and the valued sharing between us all, you'll look and sound like a GIFTED GENIUS justifying your fee.  Go have yourself a beer.

    Lar

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    Larry Fisher
    Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
    Vancouver WA
    360-256-2999
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