Pianotech

Pic attached...S&S upright about 30yrs old. Every one of the steel flange plates has loosened, letting the shanks flop all over the place. Seems like a horrible design idea, given season moisture cycling. 

So, besides tightening up the screws on these plates, what hope does a re-tightened screw on this setup have of lasting?  Any experience with these things, as uprights are not something we work on often.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

These are the "european" style upright hammer butts. I despise them. The plate screws get loose and then the center pin works out and wrecks the bushing and the slot in the butt gets ovalized. Planned obsolescence?

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2018 15:51
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

Pic attached...S&S upright about 30yrs old. Every one of the steel flange plates has loosened, letting the shanks flop all over the place. Seems like a horrible design idea, given season moisture cycling.

So, besides tightening up the screws on these plates, what hope does a re-tightened screw on this setup have of lasting?  Any experience with these things, as uprights are not something we work on often.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

I have seen this on some Yamahas. Maybe a drop of thread tite could lock the screw ???  One good thing is that you do not have to repin when you repair the loop when it breaks to rot, wear and tear, fatigue

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2018 23:10
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

These are the "european" style upright hammer butts. I despise them. The plate screws get loose and then the center pin works out and wrecks the bushing and the slot in the butt gets ovalized. Planned obsolescence?

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2018 15:51
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

Pic attached...S&S upright about 30yrs old. Every one of the steel flange plates has loosened, letting the shanks flop all over the place. Seems like a horrible design idea, given season moisture cycling.

So, besides tightening up the screws on these plates, what hope does a re-tightened screw on this setup have of lasting?  Any experience with these things, as uprights are not something we work on often.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

These are fairly common, and usually go unnoticed unless they loosen.
It's not hard to pull the action and tighten the screws.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2018 15:51
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

Pic attached...S&S upright about 30yrs old. Every one of the steel flange plates has loosened, letting the shanks flop all over the place. Seems like a horrible design idea, given season moisture cycling.

So, besides tightening up the screws on these plates, what hope does a re-tightened screw on this setup have of lasting?  Any experience with these things, as uprights are not something we work on often.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

unless the pins have already walked, which they did on this one. I agree with Ed M,  that the design is a "hit me, please!" design. What I don't get is that this is actually more involved to fabricate than a standard bird's eye...I don't get it...

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2018 15:12
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

These are fairly common, and usually go unnoticed unless they loosen.
It's not hard to pull the action and tighten the screws.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2018 15:51
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

Pic attached...S&S upright about 30yrs old. Every one of the steel flange plates has loosened, letting the shanks flop all over the place. Seems like a horrible design idea, given season moisture cycling.

So, besides tightening up the screws on these plates, what hope does a re-tightened screw on this setup have of lasting?  Any experience with these things, as uprights are not something we work on often.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

It's not a problem.   It's a feature!!...specifically designed and incorporated to provide employment for technicians...

...you're most welcome!

Kind regards.

Horace

  Original Message


Original Message------

unless the pins have already walked, which they did on this one. I agree with Ed M,  that the design is a "hit me, please!" design. What I don't get is that this is actually more involved to fabricate than a standard bird's eye...I don't get it...

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

It could be because the Germans in the piano industry are extremely stubborn and think this is the way it must be. The people at Klinke sure acted that way when I tried to get them to stop making agraffes that are prone to buzzing and breaking. They basically told me to "go away crazy piano tuner". Renner has a significant problem with center pins working their way out of grand flanges in just a few years of use and sometimes they also get the mystery sluggishness. Plus they make all their parts slightly wider than the original American standard and that adds weight.

And the Germans go to the Japanese, Korean and Chinese piano industry and infect them with the same disease.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2018 19:09
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

It's not a problem.   It's a feature!!...specifically designed and incorporated to provide employment for technicians...

...you're most welcome!

Kind regards.

Horace

  Original Message


Original Message------

unless the pins have already walked, which they did on this one. I agree with Ed M,  that the design is a "hit me, please!" design. What I don't get is that this is actually more involved to fabricate than a standard bird's eye...I don't get it...

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

‎Hi, Ed,

Agreed; and, only FWIW, such attitudes are not limited to piano work....

Kind regards.

Horace

  Original Message


Original Message------

It could be because the Germans in the piano industry are extremely stubborn and think this is the way it must be. The people at Klinke sure acted that way when I tried to get them to stop making agraffes that are prone to buzzing and breaking. They basically told me to "go away crazy piano tuner". Renner has a significant problem with center pins working their way out of grand flanges in just a few years of use and sometimes they also get the mystery sluggishness. Plus they make all their parts slightly wider than the original American standard and that adds weight.

And the Germans go to the Japanese, Korean and Chinese piano industry and infect them with the same disease.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

I have several Walter studios with this flange set up. If you catch the 'walking' early it is a benefit to be able to tighten the plate which is simple to do. One of these pianos is in a college dorm and I have not had to do this but a few times in 15 years. It may be more common in the newest one.

------------------------------
Cindy Strehlow
Urbana, IL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2018 15:12
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

These are fairly common, and usually go unnoticed unless they loosen.
It's not hard to pull the action and tighten the screws.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2018 15:51
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

Pic attached...S&S upright about 30yrs old. Every one of the steel flange plates has loosened, letting the shanks flop all over the place. Seems like a horrible design idea, given season moisture cycling.

So, besides tightening up the screws on these plates, what hope does a re-tightened screw on this setup have of lasting?  Any experience with these things, as uprights are not something we work on often.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message------

I have several Walter studios with this flange set up. If you catch the 'walking' early it is a benefit to be able to tighten the plate which is simple to do. One of these pianos is in a college dorm and I have not had to do this but a few times in 15 years. It may be more common in the newest one.

------------------------------
Cindy Strehlow
Urbana, IL
------------------------------

I believe these butt plates are cost saving.

In making wood parts, there is considerable loss due to drill travel when drilling the holes in the birds eye.
This is why we travel the hammer shanks, to adjust for drifted center pin holes.
Vertical butts get a lot of work fitting backchecks, felts and leathers before they can be installed on the rail and traveled. Correcting travel errors takes time and interrupts work flow an the assembly line.
A shallow saw kerf across the back of the butt can be cut accurately, minimizing the need to travel after assembly of the action.
They probably also save time pinning the flanges to the butts. Pin the flange, soak and dry to size the bushing, clamp on the butt and it's done.

The introduction of plastic flanges and butts has largely solved this problem.
A few years ago I saw a video of a robot testing shanks and flanges in the Kawai factory; quick and certain; any part that drifts on movement is discarded, thus virtually eliminating the need to travel shanks and flanges when the actions are assembled. [Up for correction, Mr. Mannino!]

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-31-2018 09:52
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

There's numerous Kawai UST's out there that use these as well.  I know of one at a community college that I've only had to deal with the loose screw and walking pin once.

 

I agree that they've got to be more expensive to make. 

Original Message------

I have several Walter studios with this flange set up. If you catch the 'walking' early it is a benefit to be able to tighten the plate which is simple to do. One of these pianos is in a college dorm and I have not had to do this but a few times in 15 years. It may be more common in the newest one.

------------------------------
Cindy Strehlow
Urbana, IL
------------------------------

Is the flange on backwards or is this a set up that I've never seen.  Heaven knows I've not seen them all!!!

------------------------------
Ted Rohde
Central Illinois
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-31-2018 11:27
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

I believe these butt plates are cost saving.

In making wood parts, there is considerable loss due to drill travel when drilling the holes in the birds eye.
This is why we travel the hammer shanks, to adjust for drifted center pin holes.
Vertical butts get a lot of work fitting backchecks, felts and leathers before they can be installed on the rail and traveled. Correcting travel errors takes time and interrupts work flow an the assembly line.
A shallow saw kerf across the back of the butt can be cut accurately, minimizing the need to travel after assembly of the action.
They probably also save time pinning the flanges to the butts. Pin the flange, soak and dry to size the bushing, clamp on the butt and it's done.

The introduction of plastic flanges and butts has largely solved this problem.
A few years ago I saw a video of a robot testing shanks and flanges in the Kawai factory; quick and certain; any part that drifts on movement is discarded, thus virtually eliminating the need to travel shanks and flanges when the actions are assembled. [Up for correction, Mr. Mannino!]

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 03-31-2018 09:52
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

There's numerous Kawai UST's out there that use these as well.  I know of one at a community college that I've only had to deal with the loose screw and walking pin once.

 

I agree that they've got to be more expensive to make. 

Original Message------

I have several Walter studios with this flange set up. If you catch the 'walking' early it is a benefit to be able to tighten the plate which is simple to do. One of these pianos is in a college dorm and I have not had to do this but a few times in 15 years. It may be more common in the newest one.

------------------------------
Cindy Strehlow
Urbana, IL
------------------------------

The flange is installed incorrectly. The thread will come out of the grooves

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-31-2018 18:33
From: Ted Rohde
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

Is the flange on backwards or is this a set up that I've never seen.  Heaven knows I've not seen them all!!!

------------------------------
Ted Rohde
Central Illinois

Original Message:
Sent: 03-31-2018 11:27
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

I believe these butt plates are cost saving.

In making wood parts, there is considerable loss due to drill travel when drilling the holes in the birds eye.
This is why we travel the hammer shanks, to adjust for drifted center pin holes.
Vertical butts get a lot of work fitting backchecks, felts and leathers before they can be installed on the rail and traveled. Correcting travel errors takes time and interrupts work flow an the assembly line.
A shallow saw kerf across the back of the butt can be cut accurately, minimizing the need to travel after assembly of the action.
They probably also save time pinning the flanges to the butts. Pin the flange, soak and dry to size the bushing, clamp on the butt and it's done.

The introduction of plastic flanges and butts has largely solved this problem.
A few years ago I saw a video of a robot testing shanks and flanges in the Kawai factory; quick and certain; any part that drifts on movement is discarded, thus virtually eliminating the need to travel shanks and flanges when the actions are assembled. [Up for correction, Mr. Mannino!]

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 03-31-2018 09:52
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

There's numerous Kawai UST's out there that use these as well.  I know of one at a community college that I've only had to deal with the loose screw and walking pin once.

 

I agree that they've got to be more expensive to make. 

Original Message------

I have several Walter studios with this flange set up. If you catch the 'walking' early it is a benefit to be able to tighten the plate which is simple to do. One of these pianos is in a college dorm and I have not had to do this but a few times in 15 years. It may be more common in the newest one.

------------------------------
Cindy Strehlow
Urbana, IL
------------------------------

right...just threw it back together to get a pic, without thinking.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-31-2018 20:29
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

The flange is installed incorrectly. The thread will come out of the grooves

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 03-31-2018 18:33
From: Ted Rohde
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

Is the flange on backwards or is this a set up that I've never seen.  Heaven knows I've not seen them all!!!

------------------------------
Ted Rohde
Central Illinois

Original Message:
Sent: 03-31-2018 11:27
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

I believe these butt plates are cost saving.

In making wood parts, there is considerable loss due to drill travel when drilling the holes in the birds eye.
This is why we travel the hammer shanks, to adjust for drifted center pin holes.
Vertical butts get a lot of work fitting backchecks, felts and leathers before they can be installed on the rail and traveled. Correcting travel errors takes time and interrupts work flow an the assembly line.
A shallow saw kerf across the back of the butt can be cut accurately, minimizing the need to travel after assembly of the action.
They probably also save time pinning the flanges to the butts. Pin the flange, soak and dry to size the bushing, clamp on the butt and it's done.

The introduction of plastic flanges and butts has largely solved this problem.
A few years ago I saw a video of a robot testing shanks and flanges in the Kawai factory; quick and certain; any part that drifts on movement is discarded, thus virtually eliminating the need to travel shanks and flanges when the actions are assembled. [Up for correction, Mr. Mannino!]

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 03-31-2018 09:52
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Screwy upright flange setup

There's numerous Kawai UST's out there that use these as well.  I know of one at a community college that I've only had to deal with the loose screw and walking pin once.

 

I agree that they've got to be more expensive to make. 

Original Message------

I have several Walter studios with this flange set up. If you catch the 'walking' early it is a benefit to be able to tighten the plate which is simple to do. One of these pianos is in a college dorm and I have not had to do this but a few times in 15 years. It may be more common in the newest one.

------------------------------
Cindy Strehlow
Urbana, IL
------------------------------