Pianotech

  • 1.  A 100 year old compression soundboard

    Posted 09-30-2018 00:04
    I'm posting a link to a page on my website that may interest some. I found a Stieff Upright made in 1918 (now a hundred years old) that the Compression soundboard was in excellent condition.  I would say that the crown was like a new board. And the tone it had was excellent, with depth and warmth and an incredibly long sustain.

    Along with the pictures, i also provided the data for you to see.  I just don't think all of the claims made by RC soundboard guys that i have read over the last couple years are holding true.

    If a straight rib is wanting to pull the board flat, then how come these ribs didn't go flat?
    If a rib has to be tall and narrow, then how come these wide/short ribs held up?

    Also, there were two minor cracks, which indicates the lack of compression, and supposedly once that happens the board goes flat. How come this one didn't?

    And when i presented this scale in the past, I was told it wouldn't hold up. Got back a redesign with 1" tall beams.

    http://chernobieffpiano.com/stieff-upright-100-year-old-soundboard-crown/

    -chris

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    I don't always play the piano, but when i do, I prefer my own.
    chernobieffpiano.com
    grandpianoman@protonmail.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: A 100 year old compression soundboard

    Posted 09-30-2018 06:32
    Chris C. wrote:

    "If a straight rib is wanting to pull the board flat, then how come these ribs didn't go flat?"

    The panel has caused the ribs to remain curved.

    "If a rib has to be tall and narrow, then how come these wide/short ribs held up?"

    I don't think a rib has to be tall and narrow. The higher the ratio of width to height for any given width will allow the rib to bend more easily. Apparently, assuming this was/is indeed a compression-crowned board, the panel has enough integrity and compression to have the ribs bent today.

    "Also, there were two minor cracks, which indicates the lack of compression, and supposedly once that happens the board goes flat. How come this one didn't?"

    The cracks indicate a lack of compression in the immediate area of the crack due to panel wood damage. The remainder of the panel can still be compressed, but that the wood has yet to be significantly damaged.


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    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
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  • 3.  RE: A 100 year old compression soundboard

    Posted 10-05-2018 10:26
    So as a continuation of my study of this top quality made soundboard, i took a deeper look at the panel itself.  I cut out each rib and made measurements along key points. The result was this grading map. I thought it was very interesting!! Apparently, so did the makers as they proudly (and with great penmanship) signed their work. Cool stuff!!
    -chris







    ------------------------------
    I don't always play the piano, but when i do, I prefer my own.
    chernobieffpiano.com
    grandpianoman@protonmail.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: A 100 year old compression soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-05-2018 10:54
    I have questions that I've asked several rebuilders over the years and so I'll ask you and others on this list. How do you know a soundboard needs to be replaced? And a second related question: What makes a soundboard go bad? As a technician who has never replaced a board and never will, how can I help customers know what they have and what they need? Maybe I need to just defer to rebuilders like yourself and not try to make judgements about soundboard condition.

    Wood used in those glory days of piano manufacture (early 20th century) is some of the best spruce a builder could ask for. Old growth, straight grained, vertical grain, ideal rings per inch. Manufacturers and rebuilders can't get that kind of wood any more. So why not recycle that great spruce, or shim boards and keep that old growth wood in place? The classic rationale for keeping old wood comes from historic violins made centuries ago with special wood that is still creating great tone. 

    Richard West








  • 5.  RE: A 100 year old compression soundboard

    Posted 10-05-2018 12:10
    Richard asked:
    I have questions that I've asked several rebuilders over the years and so I'll ask you and others on this list. How do you know a soundboard needs to be replaced? And a second related question: What makes a soundboard go bad? As a technician who has never replaced a board and never will, how can I help customers know what they have and what they need? Maybe I need to just defer to rebuilders like yourself and not try to make judgements about soundboard condition.

    Deterioration and damage. A Steinway S just came into my shop and 80% of the ribs were not glued to the panel anymore and about 6 large cracks. Too much damage. Pianos hold up hundreds of pounds of force, for quite a long time, they fatigue. Humidity contributes to the  fatigue process. Bad design and craftsmanship also contribute. Once a soundboard has cellular/fiber weakness, how do you fix that? And through deterioration and damage tone quality is lost. Also, when a board is new, internal forces are at play, how do you fix that when it's gone? More about fatigue - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material)

    Richard asked:
    Wood used in those glory days of piano manufacture (early 20th century) is some of the best spruce a builder could ask for. Old growth, straight grained, vertical grain, ideal rings per inch. Manufacturers and rebuilders can't get that kind of wood any more. So why not recycle that great spruce, or shim boards and keep that old growth wood in place? The classic rationale for keeping old wood comes from historic violins made centuries ago with special wood that is still creating great tone. 
    First of all, trees grow back, and you don't necessarily need old growth.  Quartersawn select Spruce is plentiful around the world. In fact you really don't need Sitka Spruce. It's just the most sought after. There are other good species of Spruce not even being used. I could make a great sounding board out of Pine, Redwood, Cedar, Cypress, and Fir. Interesting thing about Cypress- Italian Harpsichords in the 17th century used it mainly. Also, I read recently that many violins actually used cypress which has been mistaken for spruce. Cypress is a clear, straight grain softwood (mistaken for hardwood) that is highly disease resistant. It also has the same physical attributes of spruce. Sitka Spruce is only hard to get because the "big" guys in several trades buy it by the container full. So little guys like me have to buy from a retailer. I have three retailers now and they have not indicated to me of not running out of stock anytime soon. Hate those wholesalers and their lack of compassion for us instrument makers.One of these days i'll find a wholesaler who's a pianist, then i'll suddenly have an unlimited supply.

    I don't think comparing violins to a piano works. Different principles of construction.  Violins improve with age for a little while( i think it's documented 20-50yrs) but after that deterioration most likely creeps in. I think it has to do with resin evaporation that cleans up the cells for sound velocity. A recent video I watched however, clearly shows that a violin can be made today as good or even better than a Strad. Many of the participating violinists could not distinguish the Strad in a blind test.
    -chris


    ------------------------------
    I don't always play the piano, but when i do, I prefer my own.
    chernobieffpiano.com
    grandpianoman@protonmail.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: A 100 year old compression soundboard

    Posted 10-06-2018 14:42
    Richard W. wrote: "Wood used in those glory days of piano manufacture (early 20th century) is some of the best spruce a builder could ask for. Old growth, straight grained, vertical grain, ideal rings per inch."

    How many rings per inch is ideal? Vertical grain is fully dependent on how the log is cut - has nothing to do with being old growth or whatever.

    "Manufacturers and rebuilders can't get that kind of wood any more." 

    I can and do. Most anyone can. One does have to look for it - you're not going to find it at Home Depot. Excellent quality spruce is very much available.

    "So why not recycle that great spruce, or shim boards and keep that old growth wood in place? The classic rationale for keeping old wood comes from historic violins made centuries ago with special wood that is still creating great tone."

    Indeed, some of that old wood is still creating great tone. But, as Chris C. pointed out, even better tone is coming from NEW wood. Read all about it!   https://www.livescience.com/44651-new-violins-beat-stradivarius

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    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------