Pianotech

I am currently working on repairing a Steinway upright action from 1886. Of course, it has the double flanges. The piano is in fairly good condition and is certainly worth taking care of, but several of the double flanges are beyond repair and need to be replaced. I am having a hard time finding replacement double flanges that fit correctly over the little flair right around the pin joint of the hammer butt. At present, I have had some of the Japanese replacement flanges in my shop from Schaff, but they are not a good fit. I considered shaving off the little flair around the pin joint on the hammer butts, but it was raised around the pin originally to assist with eliminating friction between the fiange and the butt joint. I also considered filing the flange itself which would work, but there are enough to repair, with many others being quite fragile, that I really think my client would be best served by a set of new flanges. Those old double flanges have certainly taken a beating over time and the last thing I want is for my client to continue having them crack at the bushings. I would love to get suggestions about how others out there have handled this repair when the original parts can't be used. Is there a supplier that I am not aware of that makes one with a better fit? I would appreciate the advise.

------------------------------
Alden Jack
Smithfield UT
435-760-3974
------------------------------

Original Message------

I am currently working on repairing a Steinway upright action from 1886. Of course, it has the double flanges. The piano is in fairly good condition and is certainly worth taking care of, but several of the double flanges are beyond repair and need to be replaced. I am having a hard time finding replacement double flanges that fit correctly over the little flair right around the pin joint of the hammer butt. At present, I have had some of the Japanese replacement flanges in my shop from Schaff, but they are not a good fit. I considered shaving off the little flair around the pin joint on the hammer butts, but it was raised around the pin originally to assist with eliminating friction between the fiange and the butt joint. I also considered filing the flange itself which would work, but there are enough to repair, with many others being quite fragile, that I really think my client would be best served by a set of new flanges. Those old double flanges have certainly taken a beating over time and the last thing I want is for my client to continue having them crack at the bushings. I would love to get suggestions about how others out there have handled this repair when the original parts can't be used. Is there a supplier that I am not aware of that makes one with a better fit? I would appreciate the advise.

------------------------------
Alden Jack
Smithfield UT
435-760-3974
------------------------------

Chris, I would love to see a picture of your took you use to shave down the birds eye of the butts. Thanks!

------------------------------
Alden Jack
Smithfield UT
435-760-3974
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-10-2018 06:43
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Steinway Upright

You gotta do what ya gotta do I suppose.

 I was curious if you tried a new hammer butt? They should be machined to fit with the flanges. Yes/no?

I have a tool I had custom made to make my own birdseyes. So I can shave them down and maintain the shape and change the width.

-chris

Original Message------

I am currently working on repairing a Steinway upright action from 1886. Of course, it has the double flanges. The piano is in fairly good condition and is certainly worth taking care of, but several of the double flanges are beyond repair and need to be replaced. I am having a hard time finding replacement double flanges that fit correctly over the little flair right around the pin joint of the hammer butt. At present, I have had some of the Japanese replacement flanges in my shop from Schaff, but they are not a good fit. I considered shaving off the little flair around the pin joint on the hammer butts, but it was raised around the pin originally to assist with eliminating friction between the fiange and the butt joint. I also considered filing the flange itself which would work, but there are enough to repair, with many others being quite fragile, that I really think my client would be best served by a set of new flanges. Those old double flanges have certainly taken a beating over time and the last thing I want is for my client to continue having them crack at the bushings. I would love to get suggestions about how others out there have handled this repair when the original parts can't be used. Is there a supplier that I am not aware of that makes one with a better fit? I would appreciate the advise.

------------------------------
Alden Jack
Smithfield UT
435-760-3974
------------------------------

Original Message------

I am currently working on repairing a Steinway upright action from 1886. Of course, it has the double flanges. The piano is in fairly good condition and is certainly worth taking care of, but several of the double flanges are beyond repair and need to be replaced. I am having a hard time finding replacement double flanges that fit correctly over the little flair right around the pin joint of the hammer butt. At present, I have had some of the Japanese replacement flanges in my shop from Schaff, but they are not a good fit. I considered shaving off the little flair around the pin joint on the hammer butts, but it was raised around the pin originally to assist with eliminating friction between the fiange and the butt joint. I also considered filing the flange itself which would work, but there are enough to repair, with many others being quite fragile, that I really think my client would be best served by a set of new flanges. Those old double flanges have certainly taken a beating over time and the last thing I want is for my client to continue having them crack at the bushings. I would love to get suggestions about how others out there have handled this repair when the original parts can't be used. Is there a supplier that I am not aware of that makes one with a better fit? I would appreciate the advise.

------------------------------
Alden Jack
Smithfield UT
435-760-3974
------------------------------

Alden,

IMO the least offensive procedure would be to file the wings of the flanges so as to keep the profile of the birdseye. That is what I have done when needed. 

That being said, in the TTT section of PTJ many months ago, someone showed a flange repair that I have now employed several times with outstanding success. The flange is cracked/split down the middle through the screw hole. Drill for a round toothpick sideways through the "meat" of the flange (I do front and back for solidity) carefully work medium CA (see below) in and around and insert toothpicks...let cure, snip...very solid repair. Very impressive...kudos to whoever thought this up.

This is ACTUALLY what I would do in your case, if the wood can take it. It will be substantially stronger with this repair. 

A word on CA glue. BSI makes a black, rubber toughened CA adhesive called IC2000. Thus stuff is incredibly strong...like epoxy. Any structural repairs I have been using this for several years. If you need very strong...SLIGHTLY flexible...shock resistant...waterproof repair, this stuff is great.  The one drawback is that it is black. Obvious limitation there, but if cosmetics ain't an issue this is another product to add to your arsenal of tricks.

Chris,

I would love to see a pic of your little birdseye tool!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-10-2018 08:20
From: John Gallen
Subject: Steinway Upright

The parts from Schaff that you mention are made by Tokiwa

and are the only parts maker supplying parts for those pianos.

Those are the same ones sold by the other suppliers.

They were formerly made by Imadegawa until about 3 years ago.

There are no other "over the counter" options at this time,

and don't foresee any others coming into the marketplace.

It is understandable that matching a few parts in may not match well.

You would be better served by replacing the whole set

and making them work as best you can "out of the box"

unless you can consistently modify the parts on an entire set to match originals.

--

John Gallen,

(860)428-6045 CELL

Production Supervisor: Brooks, Ltd. Piano Parts, LLC

Owner: 1040 Pianos(Tax Preparation)

Owner:Vintage Piano Repair(Piano Moving)

Treasurer: Master Piano Technicians

Treasurer:Calvary Baptist Church of Preston, CT

Treasurer:Guilford Smith Memorial Library, South Windham, CT

Treasurer:DeCaprio4CT48th(Candidate for State Representative, 48th District, CT)

Ambit Energy: Independent Consultant(www.gallonsofenergy.myambit.com)

Institute Director, May 2019 Piano Technicians Guild's NEECSO Regional Seminar

Original Message------

I am currently working on repairing a Steinway upright action from 1886. Of course, it has the double flanges. The piano is in fairly good condition and is certainly worth taking care of, but several of the double flanges are beyond repair and need to be replaced. I am having a hard time finding replacement double flanges that fit correctly over the little flair right around the pin joint of the hammer butt. At present, I have had some of the Japanese replacement flanges in my shop from Schaff, but they are not a good fit. I considered shaving off the little flair around the pin joint on the hammer butts, but it was raised around the pin originally to assist with eliminating friction between the fiange and the butt joint. I also considered filing the flange itself which would work, but there are enough to repair, with many others being quite fragile, that I really think my client would be best served by a set of new flanges. Those old double flanges have certainly taken a beating over time and the last thing I want is for my client to continue having them crack at the bushings. I would love to get suggestions about how others out there have handled this repair when the original parts can't be used. Is there a supplier that I am not aware of that makes one with a better fit? I would appreciate the advise.

------------------------------
Alden Jack
Smithfield UT
435-760-3974
------------------------------

Instead of using a black glue, try Boot-Fix Shoe Glue. This is what I have used to reglue a rubber sole to my hiking boots. It is a superglue, and it is extremely strong yet flexible. It also dries clear. One day I will try using this to reglue hammer felt.
Another option is Jim Coleman's super-strong CA glue (Colemantools.com). Glue anything to anything, literally. Even nylon to nylon. Dries clear. I wouldn't be without it.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Peter Grey:
Alden,

IMO the least offensive procedure would be to file the wings of the flanges so as to keep the profile of the birdseye. That is what I have done when needed.

That being said, in the TTT section of PTJ many months ago, someone showed a flange repair that I have now employed several times with outstanding success. The flange is cracked/split down the middle through the screw hole. Drill for a round toothpick sideways through the "meat" of the flange (I do front and back for solidity) carefully work medium CA (see below) in and around and insert toothpicks...let cure, snip...very solid repair. Very impressive...kudos to whoever thought this up.

This is ACTUALLY what I would do in your case, if the wood can take it. It will be substantially stronger with this repair.

A word on CA glue. BSI makes a black, rubber toughened CA adhesive called IC2000. Thus stuff is incredibly strong...like epoxy. Any structural repairs I have been using this for several years. If you need very strong...SLIGHTLY flexible...shock resistant...waterproof repair, this stuff is great. The one drawback is that it is black. Obvious limitation there, but if cosmetics ain't an issue this is another product to add to your arsenal of tricks.

Chris,

I would love to see a pic of your little birdseye tool!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com



Original Message------

Alden,

IMO the least offensive procedure would be to file the wings of the flanges so as to keep the profile of the birdseye. That is what I have done when needed. 

That being said, in the TTT section of PTJ many months ago, someone showed a flange repair that I have now employed several times with outstanding success. The flange is cracked/split down the middle through the screw hole. Drill for a round toothpick sideways through the "meat" of the flange (I do front and back for solidity) carefully work medium CA (see below) in and around and insert toothpicks...let cure, snip...very solid repair. Very impressive...kudos to whoever thought this up.

This is ACTUALLY what I would do in your case, if the wood can take it. It will be substantially stronger with this repair. 

A word on CA glue. BSI makes a black, rubber toughened CA adhesive called IC2000. Thus stuff is incredibly strong...like epoxy. Any structural repairs I have been using this for several years. If you need very strong...SLIGHTLY flexible...shock resistant...waterproof repair, this stuff is great.  The one drawback is that it is black. Obvious limitation there, but if cosmetics ain't an issue this is another product to add to your arsenal of tricks.

Chris,

I would love to see a pic of your little birdseye tool!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Hi Alden,
As per your request here is a pic. Over the years , since i use to make custom action parts for rare pianos, i have had a few custom made bits made. In the picture the two on the left are for making the birdseyes, and the two on the right are for making action rails.
As you can see it only takes me a second or two to size the birdseyes with these babies.
-chris

------------------------------
I don't always play the piano, but when i do, I prefer my own.
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-10-2018 09:36
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Steinway Upright

Instead of using a black glue, try Boot-Fix Shoe Glue. This is what I have used to reglue a rubber sole to my hiking boots. It is a superglue, and it is extremely strong yet flexible. It also dries clear. One day I will try using this to reglue hammer felt.
Another option is Jim Coleman's super-strong CA glue (Colemantools.com). Glue anything to anything, literally. Even nylon to nylon. Dries clear. I wouldn't be without it.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Peter Grey:
Alden,

IMO the least offensive procedure would be to file the wings of the flanges so as to keep the profile of the birdseye. That is what I have done when needed.

That being said, in the TTT section of PTJ many months ago, someone showed a flange repair that I have now employed several times with outstanding success. The flange is cracked/split down the middle through the screw hole. Drill for a round toothpick sideways through the "meat" of the flange (I do front and back for solidity) carefully work medium CA (see below) in and around and insert toothpicks...let cure, snip...very solid repair. Very impressive...kudos to whoever thought this up.

This is ACTUALLY what I would do in your case, if the wood can take it. It will be substantially stronger with this repair.

A word on CA glue. BSI makes a black, rubber toughened CA adhesive called IC2000. Thus stuff is incredibly strong...like epoxy. Any structural repairs I have been using this for several years. If you need very strong...SLIGHTLY flexible...shock resistant...waterproof repair, this stuff is great. The one drawback is that it is black. Obvious limitation there, but if cosmetics ain't an issue this is another product to add to your arsenal of tricks.

Chris,

I would love to see a pic of your little birdseye tool!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com



Original Message------

Alden,

IMO the least offensive procedure would be to file the wings of the flanges so as to keep the profile of the birdseye. That is what I have done when needed.

That being said, in the TTT section of PTJ many months ago, someone showed a flange repair that I have now employed several times with outstanding success. The flange is cracked/split down the middle through the screw hole. Drill for a round toothpick sideways through the "meat" of the flange (I do front and back for solidity) carefully work medium CA (see below) in and around and insert toothpicks...let cure, snip...very solid repair. Very impressive...kudos to whoever thought this up.

This is ACTUALLY what I would do in your case, if the wood can take it. It will be substantially stronger with this repair.

A word on CA glue. BSI makes a black, rubber toughened CA adhesive called IC2000. Thus stuff is incredibly strong...like epoxy. Any structural repairs I have been using this for several years. If you need very strong...SLIGHTLY flexible...shock resistant...waterproof repair, this stuff is great.  The one drawback is that it is black. Obvious limitation there, but if cosmetics ain't an issue this is another product to add to your arsenal of tricks.

Chris,

I would love to see a pic of your little birdseye tool!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Cool! Thanks for the pic.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-11-2018 19:33
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Steinway Upright

Hi Alden,
As per your request here is a pic. Over the years , since i use to make custom action parts for rare pianos, i have had a few custom made bits made. In the picture the two on the left are for making the birdseyes, and the two on the right are for making action rails.
As you can see it only takes me a second or two to size the birdseyes with these babies.
-chris

------------------------------
I don't always play the piano, but when i do, I prefer my own.
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 09-10-2018 09:36
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Steinway Upright

Instead of using a black glue, try Boot-Fix Shoe Glue. This is what I have used to reglue a rubber sole to my hiking boots. It is a superglue, and it is extremely strong yet flexible. It also dries clear. One day I will try using this to reglue hammer felt.
Another option is Jim Coleman's super-strong CA glue (Colemantools.com). Glue anything to anything, literally. Even nylon to nylon. Dries clear. I wouldn't be without it.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Peter Grey:
Alden,

IMO the least offensive procedure would be to file the wings of the flanges so as to keep the profile of the birdseye. That is what I have done when needed.

That being said, in the TTT section of PTJ many months ago, someone showed a flange repair that I have now employed several times with outstanding success. The flange is cracked/split down the middle through the screw hole. Drill for a round toothpick sideways through the "meat" of the flange (I do front and back for solidity) carefully work medium CA (see below) in and around and insert toothpicks...let cure, snip...very solid repair. Very impressive...kudos to whoever thought this up.

This is ACTUALLY what I would do in your case, if the wood can take it. It will be substantially stronger with this repair.

A word on CA glue. BSI makes a black, rubber toughened CA adhesive called IC2000. Thus stuff is incredibly strong...like epoxy. Any structural repairs I have been using this for several years. If you need very strong...SLIGHTLY flexible...shock resistant...waterproof repair, this stuff is great. The one drawback is that it is black. Obvious limitation there, but if cosmetics ain't an issue this is another product to add to your arsenal of tricks.

Chris,

I would love to see a pic of your little birdseye tool!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com



Original Message------

Alden,

IMO the least offensive procedure would be to file the wings of the flanges so as to keep the profile of the birdseye. That is what I have done when needed.

That being said, in the TTT section of PTJ many months ago, someone showed a flange repair that I have now employed several times with outstanding success. The flange is cracked/split down the middle through the screw hole. Drill for a round toothpick sideways through the "meat" of the flange (I do front and back for solidity) carefully work medium CA (see below) in and around and insert toothpicks...let cure, snip...very solid repair. Very impressive...kudos to whoever thought this up.

This is ACTUALLY what I would do in your case, if the wood can take it. It will be substantially stronger with this repair.

A word on CA glue. BSI makes a black, rubber toughened CA adhesive called IC2000. Thus stuff is incredibly strong...like epoxy. Any structural repairs I have been using this for several years. If you need very strong...SLIGHTLY flexible...shock resistant...waterproof repair, this stuff is great.  The one drawback is that it is black. Obvious limitation there, but if cosmetics ain't an issue this is another product to add to your arsenal of tricks.

Chris,

I would love to see a pic of your little birdseye tool!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Chris, thank you so much for sharing a picture of your custom bits.

------------------------------
Alden Jack
Smithfield UT
435-760-3974
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-11-2018 19:33
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Steinway Upright

Hi Alden,
As per your request here is a pic. Over the years , since i use to make custom action parts for rare pianos, i have had a few custom made bits made. In the picture the two on the left are for making the birdseyes, and the two on the right are for making action rails.
As you can see it only takes me a second or two to size the birdseyes with these babies.
-chris

------------------------------
I don't always play the piano, but when i do, I prefer my own.
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 09-10-2018 09:36
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Steinway Upright

Instead of using a black glue, try Boot-Fix Shoe Glue. This is what I have used to reglue a rubber sole to my hiking boots. It is a superglue, and it is extremely strong yet flexible. It also dries clear. One day I will try using this to reglue hammer felt.
Another option is Jim Coleman's super-strong CA glue (Colemantools.com). Glue anything to anything, literally. Even nylon to nylon. Dries clear. I wouldn't be without it.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Peter Grey:
Alden,

IMO the least offensive procedure would be to file the wings of the flanges so as to keep the profile of the birdseye. That is what I have done when needed.

That being said, in the TTT section of PTJ many months ago, someone showed a flange repair that I have now employed several times with outstanding success. The flange is cracked/split down the middle through the screw hole. Drill for a round toothpick sideways through the "meat" of the flange (I do front and back for solidity) carefully work medium CA (see below) in and around and insert toothpicks...let cure, snip...very solid repair. Very impressive...kudos to whoever thought this up.

This is ACTUALLY what I would do in your case, if the wood can take it. It will be substantially stronger with this repair.

A word on CA glue. BSI makes a black, rubber toughened CA adhesive called IC2000. Thus stuff is incredibly strong...like epoxy. Any structural repairs I have been using this for several years. If you need very strong...SLIGHTLY flexible...shock resistant...waterproof repair, this stuff is great. The one drawback is that it is black. Obvious limitation there, but if cosmetics ain't an issue this is another product to add to your arsenal of tricks.

Chris,

I would love to see a pic of your little birdseye tool!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com



Original Message------

Alden,

IMO the least offensive procedure would be to file the wings of the flanges so as to keep the profile of the birdseye. That is what I have done when needed.

That being said, in the TTT section of PTJ many months ago, someone showed a flange repair that I have now employed several times with outstanding success. The flange is cracked/split down the middle through the screw hole. Drill for a round toothpick sideways through the "meat" of the flange (I do front and back for solidity) carefully work medium CA (see below) in and around and insert toothpicks...let cure, snip...very solid repair. Very impressive...kudos to whoever thought this up.

This is ACTUALLY what I would do in your case, if the wood can take it. It will be substantially stronger with this repair.

A word on CA glue. BSI makes a black, rubber toughened CA adhesive called IC2000. Thus stuff is incredibly strong...like epoxy. Any structural repairs I have been using this for several years. If you need very strong...SLIGHTLY flexible...shock resistant...waterproof repair, this stuff is great.  The one drawback is that it is black. Obvious limitation there, but if cosmetics ain't an issue this is another product to add to your arsenal of tricks.

Chris,

I would love to see a pic of your little birdseye tool!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------