Pianotech

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is: 
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered. 
Is it worth what, to whom? 
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?  
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Loosen the strings, have them get another piano to practice on, and store this piano until rich enough to rebuild it.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 06:04
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is:
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered.
Is it worth what, to whom?
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Peter,

If it's worth it to HIM, and you're getting paid reasonably for your time, talent and tools, then yes, it is worth it. You've already warned him and he's accepted that. All he's looking for is some improvement - not a rebuild (as I see it).

Let him help you too. That can be very enlightening and satisfying for him.

If though he is unrealistic and looking for a handout...then I say No.

Can I assume you are expecting to use epoxy?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 08:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Loosen the strings, have them get another piano to practice on, and store this piano until rich enough to rebuild it.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 06:04
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is:
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered.
Is it worth what, to whom?
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Hello all,

Peter, I am not giving any handouts and I have given him ample warning. If it looks like there is a reasonable chance of success (and by success we are looking for "stop imploding") then I will give him a quote for my time and then it is up to him to decide whether he can afford it or not.

Larry, what are the specific risks with repair? I know about the risk of cracking the plate, but wouldn't doing a proper rebuild also have the same risk (and have a lot more at stake if it did crack)?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 09:38
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter,

If it's worth it to HIM, and you're getting paid reasonably for your time, talent and tools, then yes, it is worth it. You've already warned him and he's accepted that. All he's looking for is some improvement - not a rebuild (as I see it).

Let him help you too. That can be very enlightening and satisfying for him.

If though he is unrealistic and looking for a handout...then I say No.

Can I assume you are expecting to use epoxy?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 08:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Loosen the strings, have them get another piano to practice on, and store this piano until rich enough to rebuild it.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 06:04
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is:
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered.
Is it worth what, to whom?
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Sorry David, what I meant was that I want the advice of the experts who responded previous times to look at the pictures of this specific piano, as I have not heard of pianos falling apart in quite this way before.

And I think that I asked the wrong question. It's not your input on whether it is worth doing that I need advice on. The question I really have is "if I were to attempt this repair, what are the potential negative outcomes?" And of course, also "if I were to attempt this repair, am I on the right track in my thinking regarding methods?"

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 06:04
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is:
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered.
Is it worth what, to whom?
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

I suspect he bottom of the piano is splitting apart too.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 09:56
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Sorry David, what I meant was that I want the advice of the experts who responded previous times to look at the pictures of this specific piano, as I have not heard of pianos falling apart in quite this way before.

And I think that I asked the wrong question. It's not your input on whether it is worth doing that I need advice on. The question I really have is "if I were to attempt this repair, what are the potential negative outcomes?" And of course, also "if I were to attempt this repair, am I on the right track in my thinking regarding methods?"

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 06:04
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is:
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered.
Is it worth what, to whom?
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Here are a couple more pictures:


What are the consequences of these kinds of separations? And are they repairable?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 11:47
From: Jon Page
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

I suspect he bottom of the piano is splitting apart too.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 09:56
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Sorry David, what I meant was that I want the advice of the experts who responded previous times to look at the pictures of this specific piano, as I have not heard of pianos falling apart in quite this way before.

And I think that I asked the wrong question. It's not your input on whether it is worth doing that I need advice on. The question I really have is "if I were to attempt this repair, what are the potential negative outcomes?" And of course, also "if I were to attempt this repair, am I on the right track in my thinking regarding methods?"

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 06:04
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is:
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered.
Is it worth what, to whom?
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Anything can be fixed but at what cost? You can bolt it back together without glue since there is glue restricting closure. Clamp the gap shut so a straight hole can be bored. If the gap is left wide when drilling, the hole will form a "V" when drawn together and the bolt itself will restrict closing the gap.

You can bolt it all back together but what of the hardened damper felt and the perhaps dull bass strings. Not to mention worn catcher leather and dry rotted bridle straps. Hammer and jack springs on the verge of breaking. You can get it working enough to find out what's wrong with it.

Know when to say when.  Let him keep it as his ancestral portraiture display.

I like these old pianos because when you push them into the debris pit at the landfill they fall apart into pieces.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 12:21
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Here are a couple more pictures:

What are the consequences of these kinds of separations? And are they repairable?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 11:47
From: Jon Page
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

I suspect he bottom of the piano is splitting apart too.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 09:56
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Sorry David, what I meant was that I want the advice of the experts who responded previous times to look at the pictures of this specific piano, as I have not heard of pianos falling apart in quite this way before.

And I think that I asked the wrong question. It's not your input on whether it is worth doing that I need advice on. The question I really have is "if I were to attempt this repair, what are the potential negative outcomes?" And of course, also "if I were to attempt this repair, am I on the right track in my thinking regarding methods?"

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 06:04
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is:
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered.
Is it worth what, to whom?
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Original Message------

Anything can be fixed but at what cost? You can bolt it back together without glue since there is glue restricting closure. Clamp the gap shut so a straight hole can be bored. If the gap is left wide when drilling, the hole will form a "V" when drawn together and the bolt itself will restrict closing the gap.

You can bolt it all back together but what of the hardened damper felt and the perhaps dull bass strings. Not to mention worn catcher leather and dry rotted bridle straps. Hammer and jack springs on the verge of breaking. You can get it working enough to find out what's wrong with it.

Know when to say when.  Let him keep it as his ancestral portraiture display.

I like these old pianos because when you push them into the debris pit at the landfill they fall apart into pieces.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Peter-
What is the current tuning status of this piano? At pitch?
If this fellow really likes practicing on this piano, it might be possible to get him through college on it, especially if it is not moved.
Restoration for long term use is a different matter!
Uprights are built around a "strung back," i.e. the soundboard, back frame, plate and pinblock. This supports the string tension. If the back is unstable, and you can't repair it, there's not even short term hope.
The case is then glued onto the back, and this supports the keybed, action and casters. These parts are not under the degree of stress as the back, plate and pinblock system. In a piano like this, a rough move could separate the case sides from the back.
With this information you should be able to decide if you can screw and bolt it together well enough to last for a while longer. 
If you undertake this, make it clear its a desperation measure.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 09:56
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Sorry David, what I meant was that I want the advice of the experts who responded previous times to look at the pictures of this specific piano, as I have not heard of pianos falling apart in quite this way before.

And I think that I asked the wrong question. It's not your input on whether it is worth doing that I need advice on. The question I really have is "if I were to attempt this repair, what are the potential negative outcomes?" And of course, also "if I were to attempt this repair, am I on the right track in my thinking regarding methods?"

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 06:04
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is:
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered.
Is it worth what, to whom?
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

If only it was a Martin Guitar... run..don't walk away. If the client is a serious player he needs to get a better piano and move past the sentimental attachment. The piano is 113 years old and has had a long life. The wood in back looks bone dry and the dust on the bottom board looks nasty. Time to retire it from the fleet,,,

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 17:45
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter-
What is the current tuning status of this piano? At pitch?
If this fellow really likes practicing on this piano, it might be possible to get him through college on it, especially if it is not moved.
Restoration for long term use is a different matter!
Uprights are built around a "strung back," i.e. the soundboard, back frame, plate and pinblock. This supports the string tension. If the back is unstable, and you can't repair it, there's not even short term hope.
The case is then glued onto the back, and this supports the keybed, action and casters. These parts are not under the degree of stress as the back, plate and pinblock system. In a piano like this, a rough move could separate the case sides from the back.
With this information you should be able to decide if you can screw and bolt it together well enough to last for a while longer.
If you undertake this, make it clear its a desperation measure.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 09:56
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Sorry David, what I meant was that I want the advice of the experts who responded previous times to look at the pictures of this specific piano, as I have not heard of pianos falling apart in quite this way before.

And I think that I asked the wrong question. It's not your input on whether it is worth doing that I need advice on. The question I really have is "if I were to attempt this repair, what are the potential negative outcomes?" And of course, also "if I were to attempt this repair, am I on the right track in my thinking regarding methods?"

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 06:04
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is:
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered.
Is it worth what, to whom?
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Thanks for your input, everyone. My philosophy in working with clients with pianos like this is to give a very detailed explanation of the current problem, talk about what might happen if the repair does not happen, what might happen if the repair does happen, etc. I give a quote on the work and any needed disclaimers. Ultimately it is their decision as to whether to go ahead with the work, not mine.

What I am wondering more about is the technical side of things. I have done several pinblock separations, but none that were separating in the bass-to-treble direction, and none where the pinblock was tilted towards the player. I was hoping that some of you might have specific thoughts around these issues.

Ed, in answer to your question, the pitch is pretty close (10-20 cents flat). I would expect to loosen the tension on the strings before clamping. Actually, I would need to remove several bass strings anyway if I were to try to put in bolts through the bottom of the pinblock.

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 17:45
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter-
What is the current tuning status of this piano? At pitch?
If this fellow really likes practicing on this piano, it might be possible to get him through college on it, especially if it is not moved.
Restoration for long term use is a different matter!
Uprights are built around a "strung back," i.e. the soundboard, back frame, plate and pinblock. This supports the string tension. If the back is unstable, and you can't repair it, there's not even short term hope.
The case is then glued onto the back, and this supports the keybed, action and casters. These parts are not under the degree of stress as the back, plate and pinblock system. In a piano like this, a rough move could separate the case sides from the back.
With this information you should be able to decide if you can screw and bolt it together well enough to last for a while longer.
If you undertake this, make it clear its a desperation measure.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 09:56
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Sorry David, what I meant was that I want the advice of the experts who responded previous times to look at the pictures of this specific piano, as I have not heard of pianos falling apart in quite this way before.

And I think that I asked the wrong question. It's not your input on whether it is worth doing that I need advice on. The question I really have is "if I were to attempt this repair, what are the potential negative outcomes?" And of course, also "if I were to attempt this repair, am I on the right track in my thinking regarding methods?"

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 06:04
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is:
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered.
Is it worth what, to whom?
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Hi Peter. I tend to be more open than most to attempting exotic repairs, but good golly gosh, this piano appears to be falling apart every which way. Even though repairs as you have envisioned might result in a working piano, I would certainly recommend replacement in this case.

I do have one question for you regarding a statement you made.

Peter wrote:
"What I am wondering more about is the technical side of things. I have done several pinblock separations, but none that were separating in the bass-to-treble direction, and none where the pinblock was tilted towards the player. I was hoping that some of you might have specific thoughts around these issues."

"...none where the pin block was tilted towards the player." What type of pin block separations have you seen then? Every pin block separation I have seen has been where the pin block blue joint to the backposts has failed and allowed the pin block to tilt forward toward the player.

Thanks!

------------------------------
Terry Farrell
Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
Brandon, Florida
terry@farrellpiano.com
813-684-3505
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-28-2018 00:12
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Thanks for your input, everyone. My philosophy in working with clients with pianos like this is to give a very detailed explanation of the current problem, talk about what might happen if the repair does not happen, what might happen if the repair does happen, etc. I give a quote on the work and any needed disclaimers. Ultimately it is their decision as to whether to go ahead with the work, not mine.

What I am wondering more about is the technical side of things. I have done several pinblock separations, but none that were separating in the bass-to-treble direction, and none where the pinblock was tilted towards the player. I was hoping that some of you might have specific thoughts around these issues.

Ed, in answer to your question, the pitch is pretty close (10-20 cents flat). I would expect to loosen the tension on the strings before clamping. Actually, I would need to remove several bass strings anyway if I were to try to put in bolts through the bottom of the pinblock.

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 17:45
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter-
What is the current tuning status of this piano? At pitch?
If this fellow really likes practicing on this piano, it might be possible to get him through college on it, especially if it is not moved.
Restoration for long term use is a different matter!
Uprights are built around a "strung back," i.e. the soundboard, back frame, plate and pinblock. This supports the string tension. If the back is unstable, and you can't repair it, there's not even short term hope.
The case is then glued onto the back, and this supports the keybed, action and casters. These parts are not under the degree of stress as the back, plate and pinblock system. In a piano like this, a rough move could separate the case sides from the back.
With this information you should be able to decide if you can screw and bolt it together well enough to last for a while longer.
If you undertake this, make it clear its a desperation measure.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 09:56
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Sorry David, what I meant was that I want the advice of the experts who responded previous times to look at the pictures of this specific piano, as I have not heard of pianos falling apart in quite this way before.

And I think that I asked the wrong question. It's not your input on whether it is worth doing that I need advice on. The question I really have is "if I were to attempt this repair, what are the potential negative outcomes?" And of course, also "if I were to attempt this repair, am I on the right track in my thinking regarding methods?"

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 06:04
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is:
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered.
Is it worth what, to whom?
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Terry, perhaps they are all tilted somewhat. I guess I have never seen one that is so bad that I thought that I needed to add extra bolts through the bottom to counteract the tilt.

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-28-2018 07:57
From: Terrence Farrell
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Hi Peter. I tend to be more open than most to attempting exotic repairs, but good golly gosh, this piano appears to be falling apart every which way. Even though repairs as you have envisioned might result in a working piano, I would certainly recommend replacement in this case.

I do have one question for you regarding a statement you made.

Peter wrote:
"What I am wondering more about is the technical side of things. I have done several pinblock separations, but none that were separating in the bass-to-treble direction, and none where the pinblock was tilted towards the player. I was hoping that some of you might have specific thoughts around these issues."

"...none where the pin block was tilted towards the player." What type of pin block separations have you seen then? Every pin block separation I have seen has been where the pin block blue joint to the backposts has failed and allowed the pin block to tilt forward toward the player.

Thanks!

------------------------------
Terry Farrell
Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
Brandon, Florida
terry@farrellpiano.com
813-684-3505

Original Message:
Sent: 03-28-2018 00:12
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Thanks for your input, everyone. My philosophy in working with clients with pianos like this is to give a very detailed explanation of the current problem, talk about what might happen if the repair does not happen, what might happen if the repair does happen, etc. I give a quote on the work and any needed disclaimers. Ultimately it is their decision as to whether to go ahead with the work, not mine.

What I am wondering more about is the technical side of things. I have done several pinblock separations, but none that were separating in the bass-to-treble direction, and none where the pinblock was tilted towards the player. I was hoping that some of you might have specific thoughts around these issues.

Ed, in answer to your question, the pitch is pretty close (10-20 cents flat). I would expect to loosen the tension on the strings before clamping. Actually, I would need to remove several bass strings anyway if I were to try to put in bolts through the bottom of the pinblock.

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 17:45
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter-
What is the current tuning status of this piano? At pitch?
If this fellow really likes practicing on this piano, it might be possible to get him through college on it, especially if it is not moved.
Restoration for long term use is a different matter!
Uprights are built around a "strung back," i.e. the soundboard, back frame, plate and pinblock. This supports the string tension. If the back is unstable, and you can't repair it, there's not even short term hope.
The case is then glued onto the back, and this supports the keybed, action and casters. These parts are not under the degree of stress as the back, plate and pinblock system. In a piano like this, a rough move could separate the case sides from the back.
With this information you should be able to decide if you can screw and bolt it together well enough to last for a while longer.
If you undertake this, make it clear its a desperation measure.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 09:56
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Sorry David, what I meant was that I want the advice of the experts who responded previous times to look at the pictures of this specific piano, as I have not heard of pianos falling apart in quite this way before.

And I think that I asked the wrong question. It's not your input on whether it is worth doing that I need advice on. The question I really have is "if I were to attempt this repair, what are the potential negative outcomes?" And of course, also "if I were to attempt this repair, am I on the right track in my thinking regarding methods?"

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 06:04
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is:
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered.
Is it worth what, to whom?
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Peter-
Perhaps you could "tune as possible" at 435Hz and let him save his money toward a better piano.
If you do any repairs, get some bolts through the back posts. [Not that I recommend this.]
And send him to the library to read The Piano Book by Larry Fine.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-28-2018 00:12
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Thanks for your input, everyone. My philosophy in working with clients with pianos like this is to give a very detailed explanation of the current problem, talk about what might happen if the repair does not happen, what might happen if the repair does happen, etc. I give a quote on the work and any needed disclaimers. Ultimately it is their decision as to whether to go ahead with the work, not mine.

What I am wondering more about is the technical side of things. I have done several pinblock separations, but none that were separating in the bass-to-treble direction, and none where the pinblock was tilted towards the player. I was hoping that some of you might have specific thoughts around these issues.

Ed, in answer to your question, the pitch is pretty close (10-20 cents flat). I would expect to loosen the tension on the strings before clamping. Actually, I would need to remove several bass strings anyway if I were to try to put in bolts through the bottom of the pinblock.

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 17:45
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter-
What is the current tuning status of this piano? At pitch?
If this fellow really likes practicing on this piano, it might be possible to get him through college on it, especially if it is not moved.
Restoration for long term use is a different matter!
Uprights are built around a "strung back," i.e. the soundboard, back frame, plate and pinblock. This supports the string tension. If the back is unstable, and you can't repair it, there's not even short term hope.
The case is then glued onto the back, and this supports the keybed, action and casters. These parts are not under the degree of stress as the back, plate and pinblock system. In a piano like this, a rough move could separate the case sides from the back.
With this information you should be able to decide if you can screw and bolt it together well enough to last for a while longer.
If you undertake this, make it clear its a desperation measure.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 09:56
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Sorry David, what I meant was that I want the advice of the experts who responded previous times to look at the pictures of this specific piano, as I have not heard of pianos falling apart in quite this way before.

And I think that I asked the wrong question. It's not your input on whether it is worth doing that I need advice on. The question I really have is "if I were to attempt this repair, what are the potential negative outcomes?" And of course, also "if I were to attempt this repair, am I on the right track in my thinking regarding methods?"

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 06:04
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is:
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered.
Is it worth what, to whom?
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Thanks Peter.  That makes things much clearer.  Most of the rest of us seemed to intuit your meaning.  It must have been too early for me to be on-line emailing.  Should probably just stick to tweeting for the 1st hour or so of semi-wakefulness.

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 09:56
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Sorry David, what I meant was that I want the advice of the experts who responded previous times to look at the pictures of this specific piano, as I have not heard of pianos falling apart in quite this way before.

And I think that I asked the wrong question. It's not your input on whether it is worth doing that I need advice on. The question I really have is "if I were to attempt this repair, what are the potential negative outcomes?" And of course, also "if I were to attempt this repair, am I on the right track in my thinking regarding methods?"

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 06:04
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter said:
"...But I do want some advice from the real experts..."
As opposed to the yoikes that replied the last time?  (May 2017 Extreme Pinblock Separation).  Peter, your question this time is:
"Is this something that is worth attempting?"
It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer this, based upon the comments previously offered.
Is it worth what, to whom?
Would you be making multiple trips to the piano or would it be removed to your shop?
How does the fact that the fellow doesn't have much money affect that calculation?
Are there rewards in the hereafter that factor into the calculation?
Or leveraging in social media?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Pete,
I have done a number of major repairs like this (but perhaps not this bad in the lower area) with good results.  I have a procedure (glue first then lower pitch, clamp, drill, bolt, let dry, pull up to pitch) but in this condition I might warn the customer that this piano is probably too far gone and not worth the time.  Especially when, for less than the cost of repairs you can get a newer and better piano.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert
Duarte CA
626-795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Peter,

In looking back on the pictures, I don't see pinblock separating, I see the back structure behind the block falling apart.

Truthfully, I do hope you can talk him out of it, but if he is determined (sometimes sentimental attachment can be quite strong), I'm sure you'll give it your best.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-28-2018 02:13
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Pete,
I have done a number of major repairs like this (but perhaps not this bad in the lower area) with good results.  I have a procedure (glue first then lower pitch, clamp, drill, bolt, let dry, pull up to pitch) but in this condition I might warn the customer that this piano is probably too far gone and not worth the time.  Especially when, for less than the cost of repairs you can get a newer and better piano.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert
Duarte CA
626-795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

You are right, Peter. I have been using the term "pinblock separation" rather loosely. The glue joint at the pinblock seems to be fine.

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-28-2018 09:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Peter,

In looking back on the pictures, I don't see pinblock separating, I see the back structure behind the block falling apart.

Truthfully, I do hope you can talk him out of it, but if he is determined (sometimes sentimental attachment can be quite strong), I'm sure you'll give it your best.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 03-28-2018 02:13
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

Pete,
I have done a number of major repairs like this (but perhaps not this bad in the lower area) with good results.  I have a procedure (glue first then lower pitch, clamp, drill, bolt, let dry, pull up to pitch) but in this condition I might warn the customer that this piano is probably too far gone and not worth the time.  Especially when, for less than the cost of repairs you can get a newer and better piano.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert
Duarte CA
626-795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Original Message------

You are right, Peter. I have been using the term "pinblock separation" rather loosely. The glue joint at the pinblock seems to be fine.

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

For what it’s worth, Steinway told me a pinblock separation repair wasn’t necessary on their upright pianos. It was ONLY cosmetic. You decide for yourself.
Of course this piano is far, far beyond just a pinblock separation.
Asking for trouble! Pass it up!
Sent from my iPhone


Original Message------

Pete,
I have done a number of major repairs like this (but perhaps not this bad in the lower area) with good results.  I have a procedure (glue first then lower pitch, clamp, drill, bolt, let dry, pull up to pitch) but in this condition I might warn the customer that this piano is probably too far gone and not worth the time.  Especially when, for less than the cost of repairs you can get a newer and better piano.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert
Duarte CA
626-795-5170
------------------------------

Peter,

2 thoughts - 1 technical and 1 legal

1 - Sometimes the glue joint at the bottom of the back post can have the same failure as the top of the post. Flip the piano on a filter and check to see. Bolting is often difficult, if not unfeasible, in that area so epoxy with tape dams has been my course of repair. 

2 - On a situation like this, and you probably already do this, make sure that disclaimers, warnings, and hold harmless clauses are in writing. 

I hope this helps. 

AG

------------------------------
Allan Gilreath, RPT
Registered Piano Technician & President
Allan Gilreath & Associates, Inc
Calhoun, GA
706-602-7667
allan@allangilreath.com - www.allangilreath.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-27-2018 00:04
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Extreme pinblock separation

OK, I know we have gone over this before. But I do want some advice from the real experts before I decide whether to give a quote or walk on this one. Client is a university student who is a serious player with limited money and sentimental attachment to the piano he grew up playing. Piano is a Martin upright made in New York, circa 1905. A previous technician had attempted a repair, leaving dried glue in the separations and one missing pinblock bolt. Now for the pictures:I have a many more pictures, but you get the gist. The bolts that are there are still tight, but they do not go through the back posts. Also, it seems like the bottom of the upper frame has pulled out. And it is also separating in the horizontal, bass-to-treble direction. What we had talked about was drilling new holes for new bolts that go through the back posts, as well as putting in new bolts that go through the bottom of the pinblock. Also clamping the case side-to-side and gluing that as well as putting in giant screws from the side.

He understands that there is no guarantee of success. Is this something that is worth attempting?

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------