Pianotech

  • 1.  replacing capstans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-31-2018 22:13
    I'm rebuilding a 1915 Steinway O. What I didn't notice when ​giving the estimate is that the capstans are the big octagonal ones, at an angle.

    I want to change them out, but I've never done that before. To me it looks pretty straight forward. Remove the old ones, plug up the holes, and drill new holes for the new capstans.

    Am I missing something very important that if it's not done right will totally screw up the action. ​

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 2.  RE: replacing capstans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2018 00:38
    W,N&G has made this job easy. Just order the larger diameter aluminum anodized finish capstans from them and also get the installation tool. You will have to hand turn the old ones out but after hand starting the new ones use the installation tool in a variable speed drill and hold the key in your hand while sitting in a chair. Put a couple of moving blankets on the floor to guard against damage if you drop a key. Two hours max.

    One end of my grand hammer flange spacer fits the hex so that is my choice for removal tool. Don't bother trying to eliminate the angle installation. They will work quite well as is.

    This will reduce the DW about 3 grams so you may be able to remove a front weight if you also shape the hammers so as to reduce mass by tapering more and reducing tail thickness. Then the touch will be more responsive and controllable. As one reduces mass in the hammer, static touch weights need to climb above what most technicians think of as "normal". Low inertia actions can feel light even when the DW is 65grams!

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 3.  RE: replacing capstans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2018 01:09
    This will reduce the DW about 3 grams so you may be able to remove a front weight if you also shape the hammers so as to reduce mass by tapering more and reducing tail thickness

    I'm replacing h/s/f and wippens.  Will that make a difference?




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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 4.  RE: replacing capstans

    Posted 06-01-2018 07:33
    OEM capstans weigh 4.8 grams. The WNG capstans weigh 1.8 grams. 3 grams translated thru KR is 1.5 grams at the front of the key. You may see a friction reduction of 1~3 grams. Your biggest geometry advantage would be in relocating the capstans forwards but that may involve a variable heel wippen.

    I cut ¼" plugs from old keys and glue them in with PVC-E glue so there is not a rigid glue line to cause the drill bit to wander if the new hole is that close. If you are relocating them a distance, plugging is not needed.

    The WNG capstan tool has a round shank. I found it to spin in my keyless chuck. I made one from a hex key.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 5.  RE: replacing capstans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2018 11:22
    If you end up moving the capstans, I've found this tool to be useful.  It's a marking gauge for bisecting the keystick.  The first time I tried moving capstans I just eyeballed it and it turned out less than optimal.  It's a fat screw for a thin piece of stock and it pays to be precise.  Rockler carries the gauges and they're not expensive.

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    Cecil Snyder
    Torrance CA
    310-542-7108
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  • 6.  RE: replacing capstans

    Posted 06-01-2018 12:40
    You probably won't mess anything up with the action but 1915 Steinway O, 103 years old most likely will need to replace the whippen underfelts too if they are still original.  Of primary consideration will be to relocate the capstans to meet or contact the whippen felt square. if so it would be best to finish work on whippen / action first and re-install. get x and y measurements for the new capstan hole location from the newly overhauled action.

    "x" being the horizontal (forward of backwards) location of the capstan
    "y" being the middle of the width of the whippen cloth

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    Richard Weinstein
    Arcadia CA
    415-767-9536
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  • 7.  RE: replacing capstans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2018 23:30
    Multiple comments:

    I make a gage out of a piece of wood that I cut a notch in to accommodate the capstan threads and sand to the appropriate thickness of average capstan height.

    Usually I can remove the capstan directly with the tool with the key in the key frame. If it is recalcitrant, one can turn by hand a turn or two and then whiz it out. (Of course in bulk, better to do all the hand turning and then all the drill tool extraction.)

    Moving a capstan toward the front of the piano is almost invariably an incorrect move based on some of the outdated information introduced in the '90s/early 2000s.  That in combination with the fact that static measurements do not reliably predict dynamic experience can lead to beautiful specs and underperforming response. Better to actually sense the key response.  If you get a reduction in touch effort, it would be more likely to benefit if that advantage was "spent" on increasing hammer velocity or as has been mentioned, pulling out unneeded counterbalancing mass.

    Brass capstans don't have a single weight.  They are all over the place in the 3-6 gram range. More are toward the top rather than the bottom of that scale. But the WNG capstans always provide some benefit.






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    Keith Akins
    Akins Pianocraft
    Menominee MI
    715-775-0022
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  • 8.  RE: replacing capstans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2018 23:32
    To follow up...

    Just finished returning a S&S "A" with new WN&G top action. Old capstans were tilted (angled) drilled new holes so that the new capstans made contact with the wippen at the same point the old ones did but vertically rather than angled. New holes were slightly in back of the old holes.

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    Keith Akins
    Akins Pianocraft
    Menominee MI
    715-775-0022
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  • 9.  RE: replacing capstans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-03-2018 01:26
    Not quite that straightforward. I always straighten the capstans on action rebuilds. I also use Renner parts and choose the square heel wippen to match.  Angled capstans have more sliding on the wippen heel and have more friction and less efficiency.  

    You'll have to determine the capstan location in conjunction with the shank choice and hammer weight selection. 

    If you are keeping the same key leverage then the capstan should enter the key at a point directly below the original wippen contact point and perpendicular to the key (for a straight capstan). So it will not enter the key in the same spot as the angled capstan. If you do that you will change the leverage.  That means that the hole for the straight calstan will enter the key slightly behind (distally) the original.  Generally that means you can just fill the original hole with a west system epoxy and a light density filler and an injector. Overfill slightly (make the filller thick enough that it doesn't run all over the place but can still be injected), sand it flush with an orbital sander. The drill bit will enter the rear portion of the origianl hole but because of the angled original you will be drilling into wood.  Use a cross vise mounted on your drill press for consistency and making small adjustments. 

    If you are altering the key ratio then you'll need a system to calculate that or make a small capstan boat to move around and test.  

    Whether you use wng anodized aluminum or brass is of no consequence in terms of weight.  The staic weight difference is only about 1.5 grams at the key and the change in inertia between the two is barely measurable and of no consequence at all.  I've had a few experiences where aluminum started to squeak so for now I'm sticking with brass.  Plus with the black color I cant see the hole for regulating easily with a capstan wrench.

    Your concern that “if not done right it will screw up the action” is probably overblown but you will want to get the action ratio right and so should make that determination with the new shank knuckle position and the new hammer weights in mind.  

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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