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Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

  • 1.  Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Posted 08-21-2018 20:59
      Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    C = 0.00 cents
      C# = 101.96 cents
        D = 200.00 cents
      D# = 301.96 cents
        E = 400.00 cents
        F = 501.96 cents
      F# = 600.00 cents
       G = 701.96 cents
     G# = 800.00 cents
       A = 901.96 cents
       A# = 1000.00 cents
         B = 1101.96 cents
         C = 1200.00 cents


    Offsets from 12-tone equal temperament in cents for electronic tuning devices

    C = 0
          C# = +1.96
     D = 0
          D# = +1.96
      E = 0
             F = +1.96
    F# = 0
             G = +1.96
    G# = 0
              A = +1.96
     A# = 0
              B = +1.96
       C = 0


    Aims and features

    1. Create a practical well temperament. This temperament is consistent and its circle of fifths is symmetrical.
    2. The pure fifths should be tempered by an acceptable amount. There are 6 pure fifths (701.96 cents) and 6 fifths reduced by 1/6 of the Pythagorean comma (698.04 cents).
    3. The mathematics should be simple and elegant. The numbers are easy to remember.
    4. The harmony of this temperament should be better than that of 12-tone equal temperament. This temperament contains 6 pure fifths which means it also contains 6 pure fourths.

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    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)



  • 2.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-22-2018 12:12
    Aha! Speaking in terms of cents is something I get, and I'm going to give this temperament a try soon... that is, as soon as I can figure out how to program it into my ETD.

    I'm assuming you haven't yet come up with aural directions for this temperament? If not no worries, just curious.

    Thanks,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Posted 08-22-2018 14:03
    I have not produced aural directions for my temperament.

    I have updated my original post by including the offsets from 12-tone equal temperament in cents, my aims and a breakdown of the features of my temperament.

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
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  • 4.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-23-2018 07:49
    What is a temperament but the relationship of pitches to each other?

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Posted 08-23-2018 14:29
    A temperament basically defines a set of pitches and how they relate to one another. The organisation of these relationships should be considered to achieve certain objectives such as better harmony.

    Just intonation is the most harmonious tuning. However, it is impractical because 12 pure fifths are not equal to 7 octaves. This is called the Pythagorean comma. This comma must be spread across the 12 fifths to create a practical tuning. The act of doing this is called tempering.

    12-tone equal temperament causes every interval except for the octave to deviate from its ratio in 5-limit just intonation. However, it resolves the Pythagorean comma very well which makes it practical.

    My temperament gets closer to just intonation by keeping 6 fifths pure whilst tempering the other 6 fifths. All the fifths are within an acceptable limit (a sixth of the Pythagorean comma).

    I have mimicked the symmetry of 12-tone equal temperament to make my temperament as practical as possible. The circle of fifths of my temperament is symmetrical.

    All temperaments are compromises. Every 12-TET interval except for the octave is out of tune relative to its corresponding ratio in 5-limit just intonation which means 12-TET is the least harmonic compromise. Well temperaments improve harmony so they are better compromises.

    There is more information on this website:

    http://just-intonation.org/intonation

    "Just intonation aims at maximal harmony, tuning all intervals with rational frequency ratios, but it can be used only in a single musical key. The ET, which is characterized by a constant irrational semitone ratio 21/12, works in all keys but all intervals except for the octave are out of tune. In between there is a large variety of historical unequal temperaments, seeking for a compromise between harmony and scale invariance to a different extent. The ET, today’s dominating Western temperament, is the least harmonic one, but over the last two centuries humanity got used to these discrepancies. Still, many musicians keep on expressing their discomfort with the harmonic shortcomings of the ET."

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-23-2018 17:39

                 Piano octaves are not an exception as imagined in otherwise fine theory. Interesting charts. Can you recognize these variations by ear? 




  • 7.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Posted 08-23-2018 18:24
    I think the differences between the fifths and the fourths should be noticeable.

    The semitones are unequal in a consistent manner which could add an element of key colour.

    I have not considered inharmonicity. Can electronic tuning devices correct inharmonicity?

    What software can I use to analyse the beat rates of the intervals?

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Posted 08-23-2018 18:39
    A metronome, Chicago to Mississippi.





  • 9.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-23-2018 20:29

           Roshan: Thanks, but I meant hearing variations between the charts themselves. Recognize which is which by ear? I cannot hear cents so value them little.




  • 10.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Posted 08-23-2018 21:27
    Could you show me which charts you are referring to?

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-23-2018 23:59
    Gosh. Any of yours.


  • 12.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Posted 08-24-2018 04:04
    My well temperament can be identified by listening to the beats of consecutive fifths. C-G will be pure, G-D will be tempered, D-A will be pure, A-E will be tempered, E-B will be pure, B-F# will be tempered and so on. Consistent irregularity is the most recognisable feature of my temperament.

    http://my.ptg.org/viewdocument/roshan-kakiyas-well-temperament?CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=librarydocuments


    My practical just intonation (alternative tritone, ratio: 17/12) is based on 3-limit, 17-limit and 19-limit ratios. It can be called a 19-limit just intonation because there are no prime numbers greater than 19. This tuning can be identified by listening to the beats of the following 7 fifths:

    Bb-F-C-G-D-A, B-F# and C#-G#.

    These will all be pure if my practical just intonation is being used.

    http://my.ptg.org/viewdocument/roshan-kakiyas-practical-just-into-1?CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=librarydocuments

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2018 04:51
    You wrote:

    "What software can I use to analyse the beat rates of the intervals?"

    The answer is: the software between your ears.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Member
    Posted 08-23-2018 18:41
    Column chart of thirds (red), fifths (blue) and minor thirds (green) around the circle of fifths, with beat rates displayed for the C3-C4 octave

    ------------------------------
    Jason Kanter
    Bellevue WA
    425-830-1561
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  • 15.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Member
    Posted 08-23-2018 18:50
    For comparison, see Wendell's Synchronous ET Equivalent. Look at the synchrony between M3 and m3 in each major triad (bottom of the graph, if you can see it)
    An alternative way to do it

    ------------------------------
    Jason Kanter
    Bellevue WA
    425-830-1561
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Member
    Posted 08-23-2018 18:57
    Here are the images again




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    jason's cell 425 830 1561


    On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 3:50 PM, Jason Kanter via Piano Technicians Guild






  • 17.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Posted 08-24-2018 15:55
    I stopped using Broadwood's Best and Thos. Moore due to the fast beat rates on the fifths, similar to those charted above. I prefer Ron Koval's series of WT's.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 18.  RE: Roshan Kakiya's Well Temperament

    Member
    Posted 08-24-2018 15:55
    I've hereby uploaded the rollingball images of Roshan's four posted temperaments. Maybe y'all were actually able to see the images, but they didn't come through to my normal email which is where I generally engage with PTG. So this time, instead of pasting the images from my clipboard into the my.ptg message-creation window, I saved the images as jpg and uploaded them. Does this make a difference? I'll see what they look like in my gmail, of course, but I'd like to know what's the most effective method for you folks, because I have other interesting tuning images to share in the coming months.
    ------------------------------
    Jason Kanter
    Bellevue WA
    425-830-1561
    ------------------------------