Pianotech

Worked on a new Steinway B today. As an aside, before I get to the issue, the recent thread (...power in Ronsen hammers..) was relevant here as the hammers were quite massive and the tone, while pleasant enough, lacked clarity and was improved significantly with a light filing and polishing of the hammer striking surface. 

But the issue here is something else. The pedal rods through the lyre bushings are quite noisy, a scraping sound. Lubrication was not effective. I notice that the rods in this piano are brushed brass, which looks great but seems to be contributing to excess friction and noise on the bushings. Polished rods would be better it seems to me. 

Does anyone have experience with these new Steinway's changing out the bushing cloth in the guide holes or swapping to polished rods to address such a problem?

BTW I also found that the trap levers were too long and both the sustain pedal lever and the sostenuto lever were scraping on the shift iron. Very obvious noise. It was easily remedied by sanding off the tip of the levers but surprising it wasn't addressed or noticed before.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

I would suspect a glue bead pressed out at the ends of the felt bushings. Change the bushings and make certain the joint is on one side or the other and not in front or in back where the bulk of the pressure might be applied. Sanding or scraping won't do because the glue line is in the entire butt joint, not just at the surface. Just don't use so much glue that it squeezes out into the seam.

Thanks Jon. I don't think it's that kind of noise. It's very similar to a damper wire/guide rail noise when the wire is a bit oxidized and rough but on a larger scale. I really think it's driven mostly by the fact that the rods are brushed brass and therefore have some texture to them. Sadly the lyre guide is so close to the top of the rods that a set of polished rods as Pianotech sells have too long an adjustment nut to clear the top of the guide. I'm tempted just to remove the existing rods and polish out the brushing but it is a new Steinway.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-21-2018 06:19
From: Jon Page
Subject: Pedal rod noise

I would suspect a glue bead pressed out at the ends of the felt bushings. Change the bushings and make certain the joint is on one side or the other and not in front or in back where the bulk of the pressure might be applied. Sanding or scraping won't do because the glue line is in the entire butt joint, not just at the surface. Just don't use so much glue that it squeezes out into the seam.

I don't think I've ever encountered a satin finish rod causing noise. I'd be inclined to think of the felt being encrusted with something. Roll up some sand paper and scrub the bushing and burnish with a screwdriver blade. Lubricate with VJ Lube or Teflon powder impregnated petroleum jelly.  Maybe there is glue residue on the rod itself.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-21-2018 11:11
From: David Love
Subject: Pedal rod noise

Thanks Jon. I don't think it's that kind of noise. It's very similar to a damper wire/guide rail noise when the wire is a bit oxidized and rough but on a larger scale. I really think it's driven mostly by the fact that the rods are brushed brass and therefore have some texture to them. Sadly the lyre guide is so close to the top of the rods that a set of polished rods as Pianotech sells have too long an adjustment nut to clear the top of the guide. I'm tempted just to remove the existing rods and polish out the brushing but it is a new Steinway.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 07-21-2018 06:19
From: Jon Page
Subject: Pedal rod noise

I would suspect a glue bead pressed out at the ends of the felt bushings. Change the bushings and make certain the joint is on one side or the other and not in front or in back where the bulk of the pressure might be applied. Sanding or scraping won't do because the glue line is in the entire butt joint, not just at the surface. Just don't use so much glue that it squeezes out into the seam.

EDIT: I just reread your post and you did say "rods".


Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-21-2018 11:19
From: Jon Page
Subject: Pedal rod noise

I don't think I've ever encountered a satin finish rod causing noise. I'd be inclined to think of the felt being encrusted with something. Roll up some sand paper and scrub the bushing and burnish with a screwdriver blade. Lubricate with VJ Lube or Teflon powder impregnated petroleum jelly.  Maybe there is glue residue on the rod itself.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 07-21-2018 11:11
From: David Love
Subject: Pedal rod noise

Thanks Jon. I don't think it's that kind of noise. It's very similar to a damper wire/guide rail noise when the wire is a bit oxidized and rough but on a larger scale. I really think it's driven mostly by the fact that the rods are brushed brass and therefore have some texture to them. Sadly the lyre guide is so close to the top of the rods that a set of polished rods as Pianotech sells have too long an adjustment nut to clear the top of the guide. I'm tempted just to remove the existing rods and polish out the brushing but it is a new Steinway.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 07-21-2018 06:19
From: Jon Page
Subject: Pedal rod noise

I would suspect a glue bead pressed out at the ends of the felt bushings. Change the bushings and make certain the joint is on one side or the other and not in front or in back where the bulk of the pressure might be applied. Sanding or scraping won't do because the glue line is in the entire butt joint, not just at the surface. Just don't use so much glue that it squeezes out into the seam.

David -
If the satinizing lines are horizontal (probably) as opposed to along the length of the rod, that would do it, especially in combination with certain types of cloth surface texture.  There's one type of cloth finish that was (might still be) available that has a longer fiber side.  It had a name that i can't recall just now.  In any case, even if it's not a glue bead, as Jon mentioned, there could be excess glue permeating the cloth. 
I would try using some series of fine abrasive to change the orientation of the satin lines, at least on the segment in contact with the pedal guide.  Maybe you could try some sort of dry lube (or fluid that would not attract dust or harden). Then look at the cloth.

------------------------------
David Skolnik [RPT]
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-21-2018 11:11
From: David Love
Subject: Pedal rod noise

Thanks Jon. I don't think it's that kind of noise. It's very similar to a damper wire/guide rail noise when the wire is a bit oxidized and rough but on a larger scale. I really think it's driven mostly by the fact that the rods are brushed brass and therefore have some texture to them. Sadly the lyre guide is so close to the top of the rods that a set of polished rods as Pianotech sells have too long an adjustment nut to clear the top of the guide. I'm tempted just to remove the existing rods and polish out the brushing but it is a new Steinway.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 07-21-2018 06:19
From: Jon Page
Subject: Pedal rod noise

I would suspect a glue bead pressed out at the ends of the felt bushings. Change the bushings and make certain the joint is on one side or the other and not in front or in back where the bulk of the pressure might be applied. Sanding or scraping won't do because the glue line is in the entire butt joint, not just at the surface. Just don't use so much glue that it squeezes out into the seam.

If the rod itself is indeed the culprit, wouldn't it be possible to use the rods sold by Pianotek if the adjusting nuts were to be cut down in length (material removed from the open end, of course)? I never enjoy having to modify a brand new part, do we so often do.

Curious to see how this plays out!

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-21-2018 11:11
From: David Love
Subject: Pedal rod noise

Thanks Jon. I don't think it's that kind of noise. It's very similar to a damper wire/guide rail noise when the wire is a bit oxidized and rough but on a larger scale. I really think it's driven mostly by the fact that the rods are brushed brass and therefore have some texture to them. Sadly the lyre guide is so close to the top of the rods that a set of polished rods as Pianotech sells have too long an adjustment nut to clear the top of the guide. I'm tempted just to remove the existing rods and polish out the brushing but it is a new Steinway.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 07-21-2018 06:19
From: Jon Page
Subject: Pedal rod noise

I would suspect a glue bead pressed out at the ends of the felt bushings. Change the bushings and make certain the joint is on one side or the other and not in front or in back where the bulk of the pressure might be applied. Sanding or scraping won't do because the glue line is in the entire butt joint, not just at the surface. Just don't use so much glue that it squeezes out into the seam.

Replacing the bushings does help, and doesn't take long. Either rub Teflon in them or wet them with Protek.

Polishing the rods also helps, doesn't have to be back to shiny, and doesn't show. Often the lacquer is a little rough. I've been retired for a few years, so this isn't necessarily current, but Steinway was using some sort of spray lubricant (McLube?) which I thought created more noise than it stopped, perhaps because of a binder or carrier of some sort. We found the same on the keypins, which would make a noticeable drag when there was any side pressure (which there is when playing), soon after delivery, that was ameliorated with a drop or two of Protek on the bushing. When I first felt this, I felt the pin to see if it was rough, and the oil from my finger instantly solved the problem temporarily, leading to the Protek solution.


------------------------------
Bob Davis
Davis Piano Workshop
Lodi CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-21-2018 11:11
From: David Love
Subject: Pedal rod noise

Thanks Jon. I don't think it's that kind of noise. It's very similar to a damper wire/guide rail noise when the wire is a bit oxidized and rough but on a larger scale. I really think it's driven mostly by the fact that the rods are brushed brass and therefore have some texture to them. Sadly the lyre guide is so close to the top of the rods that a set of polished rods as Pianotech sells have too long an adjustment nut to clear the top of the guide. I'm tempted just to remove the existing rods and polish out the brushing but it is a new Steinway.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 07-21-2018 06:19
From: Jon Page
Subject: Pedal rod noise

I would suspect a glue bead pressed out at the ends of the felt bushings. Change the bushings and make certain the joint is on one side or the other and not in front or in back where the bulk of the pressure might be applied. Sanding or scraping won't do because the glue line is in the entire butt joint, not just at the surface. Just don't use so much glue that it squeezes out into the seam.

Mr. Love,
  In this circumstance the choice of lubricant will weigh heavily on the success of the treatment. Oil based lubricants don't work very well in this location. Dry film lubricants work better. My preferred application is with an artist's brush around the rod. The dry film material can build into the satin scratches and produce the smooth surface you're looking for without producing the source of future squeaks that a polished rod provides. Sadly, I'm more troubled by the height of the lyre guides. They make routine adjustments difficult and if the lock nut comes loose, as they often do, the whole assembly doubles as a percussion attachment.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-20-2018 22:22
From: David Love
Subject: Pedal rod noise

Worked on a new Steinway B today. As an aside, before I get to the issue, the recent thread (...power in Ronsen hammers..) was relevant here as the hammers were quite massive and the tone, while pleasant enough, lacked clarity and was improved significantly with a light filing and polishing of the hammer striking surface.

But the issue here is something else. The pedal rods through the lyre bushings are quite noisy, a scraping sound. Lubrication was not effective. I notice that the rods in this piano are brushed brass, which looks great but seems to be contributing to excess friction and noise on the bushings. Polished rods would be better it seems to me.

Does anyone have experience with these new Steinway's changing out the bushing cloth in the guide holes or swapping to polished rods to address such a problem?

BTW I also found that the trap levers were too long and both the sustain pedal lever and the sostenuto lever were scraping on the shift iron. Very obvious noise. It was easily remedied by sanding off the tip of the levers but surprising it wasn't addressed or noticed before.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Thanks all. Of course I lubricated the rods and bushing cloth first thing. The satinizing grain (yes it is brushed satin) runs the length of the rod. The noise is pronounced and is an abrasive noise and not likely glue residue. I'm wondering about the nature of the cloth used and possibly that the angle of the guide hole is not exactly parallel to the rod itself. That along with the textured surface of the rod. It sounds like no one has encountered this particular issue.  I'll explore further and report back

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-21-2018 23:03
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Pedal rod noise

Mr. Love,
  In this circumstance the choice of lubricant will weigh heavily on the success of the treatment. Oil based lubricants don't work very well in this location. Dry film lubricants work better. My preferred application is with an artist's brush around the rod. The dry film material can build into the satin scratches and produce the smooth surface you're looking for without producing the source of future squeaks that a polished rod provides. Sadly, I'm more troubled by the height of the lyre guides. They make routine adjustments difficult and if the lock nut comes loose, as they often do, the whole assembly doubles as a percussion attachment.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-20-2018 22:22
From: David Love
Subject: Pedal rod noise

Worked on a new Steinway B today. As an aside, before I get to the issue, the recent thread (...power in Ronsen hammers..) was relevant here as the hammers were quite massive and the tone, while pleasant enough, lacked clarity and was improved significantly with a light filing and polishing of the hammer striking surface.

But the issue here is something else. The pedal rods through the lyre bushings are quite noisy, a scraping sound. Lubrication was not effective. I notice that the rods in this piano are brushed brass, which looks great but seems to be contributing to excess friction and noise on the bushings. Polished rods would be better it seems to me.

Does anyone have experience with these new Steinway's changing out the bushing cloth in the guide holes or swapping to polished rods to address such a problem?

BTW I also found that the trap levers were too long and both the sustain pedal lever and the sostenuto lever were scraping on the shift iron. Very obvious noise. It was easily remedied by sanding off the tip of the levers but surprising it wasn't addressed or noticed before.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------