Hi,
Basically, what Kathy said; and, some additional thoughts:
On 8/22/2017 4:34 PM, Kathy Smith via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
>
> Hi, all,
>
> You???ve all brought up very interesting points. Here I was assuming it to be a later model larger piano, but it could be any size or any age. C&A numbers, to my knowledge, only ever (or mostly anyway) went on B???s and D???s. For example, CB96 or CD495 (on the plate), numbers only on the lid.
Agreed. Over the years, I've also seen CS, CM, CL, etc...even on a
couple of (save us all) 1098's. The point is that any S&S piano _can_
be a part of the C&A "fleet" if it serves the Company's interest (_not_
a bad thing, at all).
> If this piano were old enough, as pointed out, to have been refinished, the original ink-stamped number could have been lost. An inept rebuilder may have confused the serial number with something else, who knows?
Or, knowingly removed them, as has been done by any number of rental
agencies. As Kathy described in a previous EM: historically (mostly),
"real" S/Ns for S&S instruments are normally not assigned until they are
"on the loading dock" waiting to be shipped.
While the process has varied (sometimes wildly) throughout the company's
history, the majority of the time, this has not been the case for
instruments designated (at some undefinable point) in the manufacturing
process to be C&A stock. Hopefully needless to say, there have been a
great many exceptions to this otherwise general rule....periods of time
during which they have been liquidating "old" C&A stock come to
mind...such events usually/often being driven by sales for Ds and Bs
being less than whelming; and there is a certain panache which goes with
the perception that one has purchased something "truly special".
> Also, I think about the time they went from lacquer to polyester finishes on the C&A pianos, they stopped using the big rails on the long side. Keeping satin finishes nice was a losing battle when pianos moved around that much.
Yes; and, this, among other incentives, coincided with management
decisions to move forward with "merging" production between Hamburg and
NYC, as well as they had contracted with a firm in NJ to do the
polyester which they were not allowed to use in Astoria.
> The large numbers on the lid fly (foldback top lid) weren???t brass inlays, they were rub-on decals. The C&A pianos were meant to be sold after 6 or 8 years, and now an official C&A piano can be converted to retail and sold after 3 years. Or locally, anyway.
Agreed, with the understanding that the sales period for "retired" C&A
instruments has varied wildly over the years. In older times,
instruments identified as "better" were retained longer. As management,
and later, ownership, changed, this has shifted a good deal. And, it's
pretty much always been the case that, should a client walk in with a
checkbook and say something like: "I want _that_ piano."...chances are
excellent that anything on the floor would have been sold. As much as
it's always been about music, it's also always been about money.
>This presents an interesting point, relative to this discussion.
>
> A large former Steinway dealer in the LA area lost their local Steinway dealership, but continued to carry used Steinways and other brands. The new dealer was not very involved with the real C&A pianos, and they languished on their sides in an inconvenient warehouse, so selections were a challenge for artists. The old dealer, however, had a C&A manager who was excellent, much loved by artists for his considerate attitude, and he had an impressive Rolodex. Artists continued to call him automatically, so the store purchased a couple of nice D???s outright, put big leftover numbers on the lids, and continued in the C&A business! I have no idea how it would have been viewed by the company, but artists carried on and were happy.
>
> A university faculty member I know purchased one of those D???s when it came out of service, and I never had the heart to tell her it was not totally legitimate. I have NO idea how those pianos would be viewed in the future. In those days, they didn???t put the actual serial number in the usual place in the triangle, just the C&A number. Now it???s different. That puts yet another question mark on Gary???s piano.
...and, a veritable legion of such stories exist.
>
> When you call David Kirkland, it would be helpful to be able to give a size and/or model number, approximate age maybe from owners??? knowledge, and so on.
Also, you might want to have the number cast into the toe end of the
plate readily to hand to help with identification. It's not the same as
the case number.
So much depends on facts not yet in evidence.
>
> Good luck, let us know what you find out.
Absolutely! "The game's afoot!"
Horace
>
> Kathy
>
>
Original Message------
>
> Gary, will be intersting to see what David says.
> May seem strange to ask, but has this piano been refinished, or similar? (That you know of)
> I'm leaning toward it not being a C & A. Just guessing but if it were a C & A it SHOULD have the big rails along the long side, like built in to the piano case. Also, usually a big brass inlay of those 3 numbers Kathy mentioned. Never have seen a C&A piano with a letter in front of it.
>
> ------------------------------
> [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
> [Staff Techician]
> [Texas Tech Univ]
> [Lubbock] [TX]
> [8067783962]
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Reply to Sender : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=49&SenderKey=762a7ddc-0d4b-4449-8060-280d22eed929&MID=679549&MDATE=756%253c45%253d477&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
>
> Reply to Discussion : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=49&MID=679549&MDATE=756%253c45%253d477&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
>
>
>
> You are subscribed to "CAUT" as hgreeley@sonic.net. To change your subscriptions, go to http://my.ptg.org/preferences?section=Subscriptions&MDATE=756%253c45%253d477&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved. To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to http://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/eGroups/Unsubscribe.aspx?UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved&GroupKey=e03c48ae-bba7-4045-9d5f-c5e4b7b46b15.
>
Original Message------
Hi, all,
You’ve all brought up very interesting points. Here I was assuming it to be a later model larger piano, but it could be any size or any age. C&A numbers, to my knowledge, only ever (or mostly anyway) went on B’s and D’s. For example, CB96 or CD495 (on the plate), numbers only on the lid.
If this piano were old enough, as pointed out, to have been refinished, the original ink-stamped number could have been lost. An inept rebuilder may have confused the serial number with something else, who knows?
Also, I think about the time they went from lacquer to polyester finishes on the C&A pianos, they stopped using the big rails on the long side. Keeping satin finishes nice was a losing battle when pianos moved around that much.
The large numbers on the lid fly (foldback top lid) weren’t brass inlays, they were rub-on decals. The C&A pianos were meant to be sold after 6 or 8 years, and now an official C&A piano can be converted to retail and sold after 3 years. Or locally, anyway. This presents an interesting point, relative to this discussion.
A large former Steinway dealer in the LA area lost their local Steinway dealership, but continued to carry used Steinways and other brands. The new dealer was not very involved with the real C&A pianos, and they languished on their sides in an inconvenient warehouse, so selections were a challenge for artists. The old dealer, however, had a C&A manager who was excellent, much loved by artists for his considerate attitude, and he had an impressive Rolodex. Artists continued to call him automatically, so the store purchased a couple of nice D’s outright, put big leftover numbers on the lids, and continued in the C&A business! I have no idea how it would have been viewed by the company, but artists carried on and were happy.
A university faculty member I know purchased one of those D’s when it came out of service, and I never had the heart to tell her it was not totally legitimate. I have NO idea how those pianos would be viewed in the future. In those days, they didn’t put the actual serial number in the usual place in the triangle, just the C&A number. Now it’s different. That puts yet another question mark on Gary’s piano.
When you call David Kirkland, it would be helpful to be able to give a size and/or model number, approximate age maybe from owners’ knowledge, and so on.
Good luck, let us know what you find out.
Kathy