CAUT

  • 1.  Steinway damper stop rail adj.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-19-2017 15:07
    Hi-

    I'm wondering if someone has a suggestion to help with correcting a radical different timing of the stop rail on a D when compared with and without use of the sustain pedal. This design has been a source of some discussion, and a little frustration, in the past but usually I just make the best compromise. However, in this case I've got a radical difference in damper travel and not happy about it.  With the sustain pedal down damper lift is as tight against the stop rail as I dare, maybe too tight, but without the pedal they lift way too much- probably 3/8" or more.   I've been trying to experiment with several ideas but so far no success. We're using it for an important event on Thursday. 

    thanks,

    Dennis Johnson

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    Dennis Johnson, R.P.T.
    St. Olaf College
    Music Dept.
    Northfield, MN 55337
    sta2ned@stolaf.edu
    (507) 786-3587
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  • 2.  RE: Steinway damper stop rail adj.

    Posted 09-19-2017 15:37
    Look at the angle of the underlever at rest. If it is steep, perhaps with the use of the pedal the pivot position causes a lift which is too high. I contend that the key should lift the underlever to parallel with the key bed.  If is not, then there is also excessive sliding friction on the key end felt. Measure the height to which the end felt rises when the key is fully depressed; it will probably be around 1.75".

    To correct this, lift an u/l to parallel with the key bed and measure the height. It might be around 2". You need to relocate the tray pinot holes .25" lower, so that the u/l is parallel at 1.75".  I'm doing this on B now and have done it many times before with success to eliminate the sliding friction. It might have a side effect of diminishing the difference in relation to the upstop rail. The damper timing would need to be addressed since the fronts of the u/l's are higher than before. The u/l is suspended by the damper wire and lowering the back raises the front. Sometimes when the damper timing is early, relocating the pivot holes solves two problems.

    Other than that, relocating the tray pivot pins to be inline with the u/l centers corrects that. You'll need to add another spring on the tray.

    PS. The pivot support blocks can be removed with the wires still attached to the u/l's.
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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 3.  RE: Steinway damper stop rail adj.

    Posted 09-19-2017 16:52
    Try putting cardboard punchings on the upstop rail screws, to move the rail as far forward as possible, close to the damper flanges.
    I don't know if this will help on a D, but it has helped on smaller pianos.
    If it doesn't work, you've invested 15 minutes to find out.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 4.  RE: Steinway damper stop rail adj.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 01:46
    Hi, Dennis,

    One of the first things I would check, which takes only seconds, is whether the damper pedal is traveling too far. The setting for the Steinway damper upstop rail is difficult sometimes, as you mention, since you can get different results with the key alone versus key down with damper pedal engaged. Even on new pianos, I have sometimes found too much travel.

    Ideally, when the damper pedal is all the way down, you should be able to play several different keys (including sharps) in bass, midrange and treble, and just be able to see the damper wink a tiny bit. If you see no wink at all, the pedal is traveling unnecessarily far, making it even harder to get the upstop rail down where it belongs. (Conversely, if you see way too much wink, the tray needs to travel more, and the pedal probably feels shallow.)

    If that’s a problem, you can change the damper pedal trapwork lever stop (usually a block of firm white hammer felt underneath the keybed) by shimming it a little or putting in a thicker piece. That will stop the lever travel sooner. If the lever and tray don’t lift the dampers so high, you can set the stop rail lower.

    Certainly other comments offer really good ideas. The amount of travel is sort of basic, something you can check super fast and fix easily, and at least get that part of the equation taken care of.

    Kathy




  • 5.  RE: Steinway damper stop rail adj.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 09:35
    To add to Kathy's suggestion, when you need to add felt thickness for the pedal (trap work) stop, rather than remove the existing piece and replacing it, you can use a thin shim of the same felt (hammer scrap) on the other surface (keybed). This not only allows easier adjustment, it reduces noise as well. I use two pieces of felt by preference. (On non-Steinway, with a capstan adjustment, I often find a real drumming noise, and will replace that system with two piece of felt. The capstan is nice for adjustment, but it tends to have too small a surface, and compacts the felt rapidly with use. The felt is often woven cloth, which compacts pretty readily).

    Off topic but related, I find it a good idea to install a stop for the una corda lever as well. That usually involves a thickness of wood as well as felt. It needn't be absolutely precise (there should be a bit of give), but having such a stop avoids problems with pianists who really mash that pedal, and drive the shift beyond where it has been regulated (at the same time mashing the leather that bears on the stop screw, as well as the slot in the keyframe).
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda






  • 6.  RE: Steinway damper stop rail adj.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 21:10
    Hi all-

    Thanks for the feedback and it deserves an update. We are going to have to schedule some major damper work on this piano to address the geometry at a later date, and I think a whole new back action would be appropriate at that time. First thing I tried was restricting pedal travel to the minimum, but thanks anyway. 
    Interesting suggestion Ed had regarding shims on the stop rail. I tried that today with 2 thick cardboard punchings but unfortunately, no noticeable difference- so what it is.  Besides, it's been an over-the-top week and only Wednesday (and I won't go into it all here) but what it is. We will manage for now and put this on the schedule for another time. 

    thank you again,

    Dennis Johnson. 







  • 7.  RE: Steinway damper stop rail adj.

    Posted 09-21-2017 17:07
      |   view attached
    I don't want to de-rail this discussion, but I think I have something of value to add, even if it will not help Dennis on this particular piano.

    Sustain trapwork up-stop is a pet peeve of mine.  Many pianos have no trapwork up-stop. I carry a set of wood blocks with firm felt ready for installation onto the bottom of a key bad. I check for the right thickness, then a dab of glue and one screw fixes the block.

    I often use it to replace the key-capstan-burying-itself-in-the felt-punching scenario we so often encounter on Asian pianos, including Yamaha.

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    Jurgen Goering
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  • 8.  RE: Steinway damper stop rail adj.

    Posted 09-22-2017 20:06
    And here I thought I was a heretic in doing the same thing as Jurgen: turning an Asian style pedal upstop system into a Steinway style system. It's a pet peeve of mine as well. That capstan seems like a good idea because it's adjustable, but that also makes it self-adjusting, in a bad way. Perhaps if they were to use a capstan with a much larger face, it would be more successful.

    Margie Williams
    pnotuner@pacbell.net

    "We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing." (Unknown)




  • 9.  RE: Steinway damper stop rail adj.

    Posted 09-23-2017 07:20
    Jurgen, very nice idea. And better with Robertson Square Drive Screws.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 10.  RE: Steinway damper stop rail adj.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-31-2017 21:28
    Greetings,
       Ah, yes, the twin arcs at play in the Steinway damper tray!  In order to reduce the difference in lift this causes, make sure to regulate the under levers to height with the tray at its proper position. I usually use the tray to regulate dampers, and lowering it a bit when I am finished causes the under levers to lift, slightly.  On new felt, this compensates for the first settling of the felt. On older felt, I regulate the dampers to lift slightly early if I am going to lower the tray when I am done. 
      regards,

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    Ed Foote RPT
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