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Prepared Piano..... again

  • 1.  Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-07-2018 17:59
    Hi All -
    At Brandeis University, there's a large community of the music majors that do prepared piano.  For the most part, they do well in not imparting damage to the pianos.  Recently I've discovered that, when they've been "bowing" the piano, they are adding rosin to the bow strings.  I immediately clamped down on that procedure, but the instructors, and my boss, have determined that they have to use the rosin in order to get the piano strings to vibrate.   I guess that's what its for.  But I'm concerned that the underside of the piano wire will get covered in rosin...and what about the copper wound strings?  Does the rosin not get left behind on the piano strings?
    Anyone else have issues with this?  
    We've got a huge meeting this week to hash this, as well as other prepared piano issues.  Some of the 'new music' instructors/composers feel that students should "have at" the pianos....this is part of their educational learning/experience.  !!!!!  $$$$$
    Last week they had a guest performer who took to the Steinway B (the one piano they are allowed to use for prepared piano) with drumsticks and beat the crap out of the struts.  !!!!! $$$$$   Paint chips all over.....4 struts were dinged in the process.  Needless to say, this would not have been allowed had we known, and someone has been put on notice for it.  2 pictures attached.
    I'd appreciate your thoughts/experience with the use of rosin when bowing.
    Thanks!

    ------------------------------
    Debbie Cyr
    Framingham MA
    508-202-2862
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-07-2018 18:53
    Hi Debbie 
    I don't have access currently to my archive of CAUT posts over the last 10 years or so, but there will be someone who can guide you through the search process on-line. I know that Fred Sturm and Alan Eder have posted about it extensively.  Meanwhile, a couple of suggestions:
    - record the meeting, even if only to refer back to the arguments being made
    - post here the curriculum and materials the professors are using to teach preparation techniques, or is it simply do-whatever-you want?
    - it's assumed that this activity is being limited to the designated B
    - who actually does the preparation?
    - who actually UNDOES (removes stickers, markings, etc.) the preparation?
    - $$$$$ would seem subjective, depending upon the point of view: them paying out or you receiving.
    Re: rosin, I looked on a few sites.  There doesn't seem to be a high concern for respiratory effects (for string players) though skin-related sensitivities might be of some concern with continued exposure.  Effect on bass strings certainly seems worth considering.  ($$$$)
    I was going to ask exactly how one bows a piano, but realized that one should always google a question before asking real people, so as not to look stupid.   There's quite a bit on-line. 




    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-07-2018 19:06
    Hi David -
    Thanks for your ideas.
    Yes, I have followed extensively the various discussions about prepared piano, cause I've been dealing with it for about 10 years.  I do have print outs of policies that various techs have posted.  My boss has been given "The Well Prepared Piano" by Richard Bunger Evans as well as a  copy of Alan Eder's Prepared Piano DVD. 

    I like your idea of recording the meeting.  Thanks.
    Asking about the curriculum & materials used is a good idea.  Just because I have submitted to them the materials listed above, doesn't mean they are using it.
    Assumption that it only happens on the 1 Steinway B is correct - however, they have been "caught' , by me, trying to use another piano. 
    Students prep their own pianos and undo the prep after.  

    As I said previously, 90% of the time, students are very respectful of the piano.  I've been told by my boss to be prepared for very strong arguments in favor of continued and increased use of this type of thing.  :-(



    ------------------------------
    Debbie Cyr
    Framingham MA
    508-202-2862
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-07-2018 19:02
    Following Debbie. On a personal note...this is just CRIMINAL!! 😤😤🤨🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️😠
    I definitely feel your pain. I know very little about Rosin-others probably wil though. Sady, we just have to "choose our battles" - 😏😖 and just do the best you can to limit things. We now have a written policy-helps some! The only piano we have been successful at preventing all prepared piano is our Faziioli 278 which is locked in a cage in back of our recital hall. Several dampers "trashed" has been our worst issue.

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-07-2018 22:03
    Debbie

    The best way to deal with this is to let the administration "deal" with it.  At the meeting, prepare a chart to show the damage that has been done to the piano already, and how much it will cost to fix it. Also give the figure of possible future damage and the cost of that. The damage  to the plate, for instance, you might want to point out the "right" way to repair that damage is for the plate to come out, new strings. etc. 

    If the administration is willing to pay for the damage done to the pianos, then let the students and faculty have at it. If they don't want to pay for it, let them police the students and faculty. That's not your responsibility. 

    Just get it in writing. 


    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2018 09:57
      |   view attached
    Hi Debbie,
    Do you have the Extended Use Protocol from the CAUT home page? The link is below. It might be helpful in your meeting.  It does not specifically address bowing and perhaps that could be a useful addendum for the CAUT Committee to look into. I know that Jim Busby and Keith Kopp have experience in this area and may have suggestions for cleaning up the rosin. Designated pianos is key to this issue. Especially when it comes to bowing and destructive percussive techniques. I would definitely take Wim's advice. Be prepared (no pun intended :-) for your meeting with all the advise and documentation you can find. Attached is the keyboard policy document I developed for IC. It might have some use in your situation.

    Home - College and University Technicians (CAUT) | Piano Technicians Guild
    Ptg remove preview
    Home - College and University Technicians (CAUT) | Piano Technicians Guild
    The site home page
    View this on Ptg >


    ------------------------------
    [Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
    [Piano Technician]
    [dmckech@ithaca.edu]
    [Home 607.277.7112]
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)

    doc
    Keyboard Policies.doc   46 KB 1 version


  • 7.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Posted 04-08-2018 17:36
    For many years a Kawai KG3 has been the sole piano  that is approved for usage for any prepared piano repertoire and everyone from Director to Faculty  to Stage Crew know and fully  support this.The piano lives permanently backstage  of the Concert Hall in the piano room along with the five 9' Concert grands . It often happens that the prepared piano is just  used for one piece on the recital  so stage crew will place  the Kawai and one of the 9' pianos on the stage .This arrangement has worked well but it involves everyone  in the music dept.  conveying  the same message , so even if the student says '' well I only have to pluck a few strings" I say thats fine but you'll do it on the Kawai.  Students are encouraged to explore the parameters of sound  in their compositions  but  utilizing a Steinway concert size piano is  probably not the most appropriate instrument, I would suggest  identifying a lower priority  6' piano on inventory and  making it readily available.

    ------------------------------
    Martin Snow
    Boston MA
    617-543-1030
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Posted 04-08-2018 18:13
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VqTwnAuHws   Maybe this was their inspiration......

    ------------------------------
    Martin Snow
    Boston MA
    617-543-1030
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2018 20:20
    Or this one. I have to guiltily admit I kind of like it. :-)

    The Bowed Piano Ensemble perform Stephen Scott's Entrada
    YouTube remove preview
    The Bowed Piano Ensemble perform Stephen Scott's Entrada
    Filmed at Packard Hall, Colorado College on September 11th 1999. Featuring the following performers: Ryan Banagale, Marisa Callaway, Laura Davis, Jade Durky, Marissa Olson, Lander Purvis, Tamara Roberts, Stephen Scott, Elyse Weakley and Matt Wirzbicki.
    View this on YouTube >


    ------------------------------
    [Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
    [Piano Technician]
    [dmckech@ithaca.edu]
    [Home 607.277.7112]
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2018 11:37
      |   view attached

    To all,

     

    Attached is the BYU Non-traditional Policy.

     

    This was arrived at and developed this policy for the same concerns and reasons that you have expressed. What has made it work for us follows:

    1.       We have had very open and in depth discussions with students, faculty and administration where everyone's concerns were considered.

    2.       We are willing to provide appropriate pianos for their needs which include multiple pianos including a 9' foot grand for rehearsals and performances. These do not include our main concert performance pianos.

    3.       Our policies are clearly stated, posted in performance areas, in policy manuals and have been communicated to faculty members.

    4.       We have clear instructions printed in our booking confirmations forms where students sign that they have read and understand the policy.

    5.       When we receive booking confirmations, we contact the performers if we have any reason to believe they have not understood what is expected.

    6.       We contact them personally offering assistance or suggesting appropriate procedures for use.

    7.       We have instructed stage managers to contact us at rehearsals times if they see anything they feel might not be appropriate use.

     

    So far, everyone seems to be happy at least for today.




    Attachment(s)

    docx
    Non-traditional Policy.docx   180 KB 1 version


  • 11.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2018 12:07
    Specifically to the question of rosined strings for piano bowing, I don't have a whole lot of experience with it, but what I have tends to suggest it is pretty benign  - the rosin, that is. And as long as care is taken around the dampers, there is very little likelihood of any problems. We had a bowed piano ensemble come through a few years back, perhaps one from one of those videos posted in the past couple days. I tuned the piano the day of the performance, and checked it the day after. No signs whatsoever that it had happened.

    Note that all bowed instruments use rosin - you have to. The bow hair must be made sticky or no sound will be produced. Many of their strings (bass particularly) are wrapped. String players do wipe off their soundboards after practice and performance, so that the rosin dust won't interact with the varnish - but this is a lot of rosin dust concentrated in one particular area. Piano bowing uses smaller rosined surfaces, and there is a lot less sawing back and forth than in a violin performance.

    So I don't think there is really much need for concern, beyond the usual care around the dampers. If there is significant residue, it can be blown or wiped away. 

    I have heard of experiments with other possibilities, like strips of the kind of plastic tape used for crime scenes, etc. Don't know how effective they are. I have seen people use something more or less rubber, rubbed along the string to activate it - quite a bit different sound. There is a lot of experimentation going on all the time, and our best approach is to be involved, communicating as much as we can. A policy like BYU's, that Keith shared, is a good way to ensure this happens.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2018 19:02
    Don McKechnie - 
    Thanks for links & the documents.  I already have both, and they have been shared, quite a while back, with my boss.  I also enjoyed the YouTube link of SScott's Entrada.  They use old piano shank & hammer (Steinway) as mallets to strike the struts and strings...... better than the drum sticks the 'yo-yo' was using on our piano.

    Keith Kopp -
    Thanks for your info.  I also have an older version of BYU policy.

    Martin Snow -
    I agree - I'm trying to get them to use a Yamaha C3, circa 1970's for this.  I've seen this Piano Guys video.  I show it to the students every year - it's prepared piano without any damage, and pretty effective.  But I never realized that they had to use rosin on the bow hairs.  

    Wim Blees - 
    Agreed - The decision & responsibility should lie with my boss.  And he would deal with the costs.

    David Skolnik - 
    Thanks for the list of questions - I will be using them.

    Patrick -
    Agreed!

    Fred Sturm -
    Thanks so much for the detail on rosin.  Very much appreciated!  Just what I was looking for.  Seems like I can let down my guard on the rosin.

    My meeting is Wednesday - I'll let you all know how it goes.  Is anyone ever concerned that they (the students doing this) might break a bass string & have it go flying out the tail end of the piano.... hopefully into a wall, and not into someone?  Perhaps by pounding too hard on the bass strings with a mallet or something?  Do you all make sure they understand that is a possibility?

    Debbie Cyr
    Registered Piano Technician
    508-202-2862 cell/text
    debbiecyr@me.com







  • 13.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2018 20:07
    Hi Debbie,

    We have had much bowed piano activity--including on our front-line concert instruments--without any noticeable damage.

    "Caution" ("crime scene") tape is effective on piano strings when coated with spray rosin.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2018 09:37
    Hi all,

    We deal with this quite a bit at Harvard. A few years ago we implemented a system that works pretty well here. It took a while to catch on and make everyone aware (took a lot of repetition and reminders) but I would call it successful. We have a paragraph about prepared piano on the services page of our website (https://pts.fas.harvard.edu/services) but ultimately anyone scheduled to use a piano on campus is asked a series of questions one of which is do they plan to use any extended techniques on the piano. You get a feel for who might based on which individual, group, or faculty is asking. If the answer is yes then they are required to visit our website and fill out a permission form - https://pts.fas.harvard.edu/extended-techniques-guidelines-and-request-form

    One of our techs is the dedicated person who is in charge of this. After he reads the form he may request more information or schedule a meeting to go over safer techniques or materials, things to watch for, further instruction, etc. So far everyone has been cooperative. A little education goes a long way I find. 

    Mariana

    ------------------------------
    Mariana Lincoln Quinn
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2018 10:10
    We have a similar policy at CalArts. All students, faculty and guest artists are required to watch our video "Non-Traditional Piano Use" and then meet with me to demonstrate any and all techniques that they plan to use.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2018 11:17
    Alan

    Any chance you could provide a link to that video?

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    www.pianoplace.net








  • 17.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-15-2018 18:32

    Alan,

                    I concur with that question by Mr. Bill Davis, RPT, SERVP. I would do well to have such a video at the ready in case this situation crops up here @ SCC (St. Charles Comm. College). Has not as yet, but who knows?

    Thanks for all the knowledge – sharing you've given through the years!

     

    Alan Hoeckelman, RPT

    SCC Music Tech

    St. Charles Community College

    4601 Mid Rivers Mall Dr.

    Cottleville, MO 63376-2865

    Office: 636-922-8548

    Cell: 314-650-5377

     

     

     






  • 18.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2018 11:56
    Hi Debbie,

    there's a lot of sound advice in this thread. I second what's been mentioned earlier: 1) designated piano, 2) making this the designated choice of the administration.

    Point # 2 above goes directly towards maintenance costs. 

    What never should be allowed to happen is unmonitored (ab)use of a main concert grand. Just something as seemingly harmless as marking the strings for plucking with small bits of electrician's tape placed across the agraffes could be a potential disaster along the way. I got an emergency call for an unresponsive action just before a concert featuring a major pianist. The offender was a tiny bit of electrician's tape that had dropped into the action.





  • 19.  RE: Prepared Piano..... again

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-15-2018 11:29
    Hi All -
    Sorry for the delay, but its a crazy time of  year.
    We had "The Meeting" this past week. It was pretty anti-climatic.  The had gotten a hold of Harvard's Piano Request form
    that Mariana Quinn mentioned a couple of posts ago, and formatted their own based on that.   We made a few edits.  I've requested a copy once its complete - I'll share here when I get it. 

    I had given my boss, the head of  the department, a few variations on policies used by various universities, including CAUT, Harvard, BYU, Ithaca, along with a copy of Richard Bunger's Well Prepared Piano and a VCR copy (and later a DVD copy) of Alan Eder's Non-Traditional Piano Use.......  I gave him all of this a long time ago - maybe 10 years ago.  Every once in a while, at meetings with me and my boss, I would refer to those policies, the DVD, and he would pull them off the shelf.  A day or 2 before this week's meeting, he actually watched the DVD and read the Bunger book, and looked over the policy copies.  He was astonished that there was so much information.   !!!   

    I asked what the curriculum was that incorporated instructing students in safe non-traditional techniques.  There is none.  If a student (and  these are primarily composers) wants to do some, it sounds like they are all very conservative about what techniques they incorporate, and the instructor oversees what they do.  I suggested that they develop a little bit of this instruction into the curriculum.  That went over like a lead balloon.  Instructor kept saying that this kind of composing is very outdated, and that students are not really interested.  Instructor kept saying that its the guests we have a problem with, not the students.  I said, Well, if that's true, and students are not interested in these techniques, why did these guests get invited?  It seems the grad student composers put this all together as a 2 day festival, with some 'fairly well known composer/artists/performers".  One day was our students performing their compositions with/for these 'big name' artists, and the next day the guest artists would perform their own stuff.....which is where one of the guest artists took to the Steinway B plate with drumsticks.

    SO, end result.....
    1)  My boss has finally read the material.  Will he have others read it as suggested?  Unknown.
    2)  They've drafted a much more comprehensive policy that any student or guest who is using a piano will have to sign, saying they assume responsibility for damage to piano.  If they acknowledge that non-traditional techniques will be used, they are to describe it in writing and it will come to me.
    3) Any hope of this becoming a part of the curriculum seems hopeless, but I will continue trying.
    4)  There was a bit of talk of using a Yamaha C3 (1970's version) just for prepared piano use.  That would be better than the current Steinway B, but there is an issue with having to keep it in the hall all the time, cause there's no other place to keep it without hiring movers every time.
    5)  I do want to reiterate what I said at the outset, that 95% of  the time, the prepared piano is well done, and no damage is done.

    ------------------------------
    Debbie Cyr
    Brandeis University
    508-202-2862
    ------------------------------