CAUT

  • 1.  Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2018 09:14

    No, this is not one of those "new" sports being considered for inclusion in the Olympics. I'm taking about THE highest tuning pin torques I have ever encountered, by far. When the pins DO finally release, they move a lot, with corresponding changes in the pitch of the string (and the sound of a small caliber firearm being discharged!). Did not have a torque wrench with me, or the means of shooting video of what it looks and sounds like to tune this beast (although both of these items are on the agenda for the next visit). FWIW, there were a handful of pins, scattered throughout the scale, that were far more normal feeling.

    The piano is a hundred year old Steinway grand that has been restrung. Did not have time on that first visit to pull the action and examine the pinblock. In the mean time, I am left to wonder and speculate (not my favorite past-time, but in the absence of more data, it's all I have to chew on): Is it the original block, either treated with some disagreeable substance, or damaged in reaming, or restrung with too-large pins? Or could it actually be a new block, but so horribly drilled (too fast a speed and/or rate of feed? Dull bit? Too small a hole for the pin size used?), as to yield the worst feeling tuning pins I have ever encountered. It brought to mind someone describing breaking off a tuning pin (a pleasure that I have not personally had...yet) on a multi-multi-laminate Baldwin glue-block from the bad old days.

    Of all the thousands of pianos I have serviced, the feeling of the tuning pins on this one are off-the-chart to an extreme degree. Do these symptoms sound familiar to anyone? And if so, were you able to positively ascertain the cause?

    Thanks,

    Alan



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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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  • 2.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2018 10:37
    Alan, when I was just getting started in this biz, my first job after completing Piano Technology under Jim Geiger-I worked for a tech (in the Guild btw...😏😏) - he really was kind of a "bull in a China closet so to speak! Many times I saw him CRAM/Sledge hammer in two sizes larger tuning pins than was in the piano <insert CRINGING BEETOVEN!!!😝>
    And a lot of times he would dip the jumbo pins in a bit of varnish in order to help them "go in easier...🙄🙄.. and was convinced this was THE BEST technique he had found, etc. These symptoms you describe do remind me of what I experienced working for "that guy" for unfortunately nearly two years. (I was young, broke & HAD to have work!)

    I'm just throwing this out there FWIW, just to say that this really COULD be a possibility. Do you have one of those little tuning pin size tools in which you can check their size in the piano?? (Schaff I believe..)

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    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
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  • 3.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Posted 05-29-2018 10:58
    I had this problem with a restrung S&S. I fixed it by using the pin to ream the block. I started by turning each pin a half turn slack. Then wrenched each pin back and forth 30 half-turns (slack direction first), until I felt appropriate torque. The bass required only 20 half turns. I also installed tenor counter bearing aliquots while I was at it. The piano is a pleasure to tune and holds very well. Fortunately, only one bass becket broke.

    Plan on hours of wrenching. Followed up with coil lifting, chipping, spacing treble wires, squeezing in beckets, tapping down coils, chipping, tuning, tuning...etc.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 4.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2018 13:26
    Yes, I've had that experience, often with new blocks. I am reminded of the early to mid 80s, when there was a big fad of using Delignit and Falconwood blocks, and the drill bit sizes often recommended were such as to produce the results you describe. 

    The fad had to do with frustration over so many loose blocks, and determination that we rebuilders would not allow that to happen again. The numbers recommended for torque in those days was way on the high side. And the resulting mindset led to many piano technicians complaining to manufacturers about new pianos have pins that were too loose (when they weren't), feedback that led to manufacturers like Yamaha pinning quite a bit tighter in recent years  - at least that is my own take on the situation. Personally, I far prefer a borderline too loose block to even a moderately too tight block. What you are describing is an abomination, an untunable piano.

    Solution? Remove all pins, redrill to a more rational size hole, repin. Or replace the block. I doubt that wrenching the pins back and forth will do the job, though it might yield an improvement. If you go that route, get the longest tuning hammer you can find (add another 10" to a Fujan, for instance).
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "Art is not a mirror held up to reality, but a hammer with which to shape it." Brecht






  • 5.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-30-2018 11:37
    When we restrung a S&S B some months ago, the same problem came up. My friend Jim, after installing one pin and seeing how tight it was, decided to ream each hole with a gun barrel cleaner. Took about 45 minutes, and the result was a piano that's mostly easy to tune. It still struggles with mildly tight and jumpy pins, but it's tunable.

    All this to say, if you're the one to restring, test pin torque BEFORE you install all the pins.

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    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
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  • 6.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Posted 05-30-2018 10:50
    I Have a M&H model A that I service somewhat regularly with super high torque tuning pins. This is a beautiful instrument
    but essentially un-tunable. I am going to repin using existing strings as it was restrung not too long ago. Not sure who did work, but its very nice workmanship just too tight pins. Looking from underside of block, it appears to be original. 

    Here's a bit of info on new pinblocks from personal experience: Over the past 30 years, we restored 150 or so grand pianos. I used Schaff's standard 13 ply block on nearly every single one. Drilled blocks with .262 size bit at 750rpm. (In and out speed about 5-6 seconds) Tuning pin torque always came out nice and even. I still service some of the pianos with 20-30 year old blocks and the torque is still adequate. 

    Other notes: Never used varnish or any pin driving fluid. Replaced drill bits about every 20 or so pianos.   


    --
    Stephen R. Duncan, RPT
    Piano Technician
    UNC-Greensboro, CVPA
    336-847-6310





  • 7.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Posted 05-30-2018 11:07
    Before you repin the M&H, make certain the pins are not riding on the back side of the holes. A new block might be in order.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 8.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-31-2018 01:07
    When pins are too-tight. Set enough time on the service schedule to; "use the existing pin to ream the hole" as Jon Pace described. Steinway for many years would have the first tuner who tuned after the action was installed, work the over-tight pins slowly down about a half step and back up to pitch until the friction became workable. You can't go too fast or you will glaze the hole and end up with jumpy pins. One can spend an arm tiring hour and a half doing this, but then the piano is easily tuneable afterwards.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 9.  RE: Extreme tuning pin torque and jumpiness

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-31-2018 12:24
    I think that moving the pin back and forth can work in a Steinway-style pinblock (maple, not so many plies, maybe 6 - 10). I don't think it works in blocks like Delignit or Baldwin, many more plies and denser material, plus more glue. Since you often don't know what you have, it is worth experimenting and seeing whether the technique will work.

    Here is another application where the Fujan lever comes into its own, due to the ability to lengthen (add sections) without losing stiffness. I carry an extra 4" and 6" section, so I can get up to about 23" in extreme cases - about the maximum my arm will reach (also helpful for square grands, but that's a completely different can of worms).

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    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
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