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Etreme tuning pin toque and jumpiness, part II

  • 1.  Etreme tuning pin toque and jumpiness, part II

    Posted 14 days ago
    Went back to see the piano with so many tuning pins torquing out above 250 inch-pounds. Was loaded for bear--drill motors, reamers, rosin in powder form and in solution, a small sledge hammer and pin-block support jack, and the like--prepared to administer every possible remedy suggested, on the list and off.

    Step one was to measure and record the torque of each and every pin, eventually settling into a routine of tuning the string as best as possible with the torque wrench (!) after each measurement. Of the torque wrenches I had gathered, by far the best was the one I had acquired from Pianotek (0-250 inch/pounds). It measures in both directions (as opposed to having a ratcheting function), and allowed for surprisingly good control while tuning.

    Then I tried the simplest and fastest potential remedy, Jon Page's "wrench it back and forth 20 or 30 times." I used the tightest pins to experiment, and proceeded in increments of 10 back-and-forth turns at a time. It worked! No need to try other remedies (on this piano, at least), although if I had the time, I would have tried them all, just out of curiosity.

    A string broke, not at the becket, but where the wire turns to go around the pin. In the first two splice attempts, the new wire failed just as it was being brought up to pitch. On the third attempt, it was the original wire that failed. In the mean time, I removed the newish-looking, nickel-plated, 2/0 x 2 3/8" tuning pin. The size of the pin suggested that a new pin block had been installed.

    Took the attached photos while the pin was out. Zoom in on the tuning pin hole. Any idea what we are looking at here (besides a sloppy stringing job, that is)?

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Etreme tuning pin toque and jumpiness, part II

    Posted 14 days ago
    Any idea what we are looking at here (besides a sloppy stringing job, that is)?

    Yes, definitely.  We're looking at you getting a better camera.
    Also, stringer was probably in a hurry... got his sweater (or cat) stuck in that hole.
    Also looks like plate was sprayed after new block was installed, without protecting block.
    How's your arm?

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Etreme tuning pin toque and jumpiness, part II

    Posted 14 days ago
    David,

    It's just the camera on my low-end smart phone, but the resolution is good enough to zoom in with considerable detail, at least, it was before I attached it to my post.

    This is not the only tuning pin hole with detritus in it, so it must have been a large sweater (at one time, any way).

    My arm is fine (good time to use the non-dominant limb!). Only loosened three tuning pins, albeit the very tightest, on this trip.

    Alan


    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Etreme tuning pin toque and jumpiness, part II

    Posted 14 days ago
    Before I started wrenching back and forth, I turned each pin back a half turn. And then my first swing was in the 'loosening' direction. Did you make both sides of the loop slack before you proceeded?  I'm glad it worked out for you.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Etreme tuning pin toque and jumpiness, part II

    Posted 14 days ago
    Jon,

    I DID lower the tension before starting to wrench, but did not loosen both sides of the wire first (on plain wire strings). The string that broke was a wound string. The break did not appear to be caused directly by what I did, but must have already been weakened somehow.

    Thanks again for the great tip!

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Etreme tuning pin toque and jumpiness, part II

    Posted 14 days ago
    It looks to me like someone put construction adhesive, spackle or some substance in the tuning pin holes perhaps to tighten the pins but they
    contaminated the pin block. torque readings that high are way out of limit.

    unless i missed something a 2/0 tuning pin is not oversized maybe the length is at 2 3/8 " . someone needs to put a new block in and drill it correctly .

    i am surprised more strings did not give and i noticed rust on the coils of one of the strings. it looks dark enough to have already weakened the string . since my torque wrench is about the same as yours it seems like iy is like using a breaker bar. you are licky the tuning pins have not
    bent or broken. mt advice ? fuhgetaboutit

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Etreme tuning pin toque and jumpiness, part II

    Posted 14 days ago
    i knew i had a chart on tuning pin torque ranges 250 and above is above a very tight rating of 240 inch lbs which is usual for newly driven pins

     240- very tight - usual for newly driven pins
     144-tight- common in new pianos
      96- normal
      48- slightly loose


     note i have had pins so loose they can be turned by hand; i have had tight pins but very rarely if ever had very tight except perhaps some of the baldwins that had death grip pins. sometimes after applying ca glue on loose pins i have had some very tight pins but once they broke free of the bond they cooperated .

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Etreme tuning pin toque and jumpiness, part II

    Posted 5 days ago
    Alan - where do you get your powdered rosin from and what kind of liquid do you dissolve it with (and ratio) ?

    Help the Haasenritter's heal

    Many thanks,


    Kamuela "Sam" Haasenritter, RPT
    President: Haasenritter Piano Service, Inc.
    Certified Bosendorfer Technician
    Certified WNG Action Installer
    Registered Piano Technician
    (404) 932-8863 (TUNE)

    On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 6:21 PM, James Kelly via Piano Technicians Guild






  • 9.  RE: Etreme tuning pin toque and jumpiness, part II

    Posted 5 days ago

    Kamuela,

                Sorry not to have gotten back to you quicker. Also sorry I am not the Alan you need to ask this question of. I had not participated in this thread, merely read the posts with interest. Checking back to July 2nd, it was Alan Eder of the Herb Albert School of Music, California Institute of the Arts, Valencia CA,

    Phone: 661 904 6483.  It was he that mentioned rosin in solution & powdered forms. I have not the occasion to try it, but would guess the solvent to be Isopropyl or Denatured Alcohol, or maybe Lacquer Thinner, or Acetone. Each of those evaporates at ever faster rates than the one I listed before. Once you have some rosin, try a tiny bit with each solvent to see what dissolves the powder. Mind the buildup of the fumes: Isopropyl is less toxic than the others, Medical folks wipe you down with it to kill germs, but, high concentrations can still affect you adversely breathing it or explode from a spark or flame. While Acetone is nastier with greater risk of fire.

    (I shared that in case you do not reach Mr. Eder.) Good luck. I hope you heal in good time from that Lyme disease. It's not fun I have heard. Take care,

    Alan Hoeckelman, RPT

    SCC Music Tech

    St. Charles Community College

    4601 Mid Rivers Mall Dr.

    Cottleville, MO 63376-2865

    Office: 636-922-8548

    Cell: 314-650-5377

     






  • 10.  RE: Etreme tuning pin toque and jumpiness, part II

    Posted 5 days ago
    Thank you very much Alan

    Help the Haasenritter's Heal
    https://www.youcaring.com/haasenritter-family


    Many thanks

    Kamuela "Sam" Haasenritter, RPT
    President: Haasenritter Piano Service, Inc.
    Certified Bosendorfer Technician
    Certified WNG Action Installer
    Registered Piano Technician
    www.hpianoservice.com
    (404) 932-8863 (TUNE)





  • 11.  RE: Etreme tuning pin toque and jumpiness, part II

    Posted 5 days ago
    I found powdered rosin at a sporting goods store. It’s used by baseball pitchers on the mound.

    —Cy—