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maximum wire length per note?

  • 1.  maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-10-2018 17:19
    Hi everyone,

    I know I have seen a chart where someone figured out the maximum length of wire for a replacement for each size of wire. I've searched around and haven't been able to track it down. Does anybody have that info?

    Thanks!


    ------------------------------
    Ryan Sowers
    Olympia WA
    360-705-4160
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-10-2018 19:21
    Check out "The New York City Tool Kit" by Dan Levitan from the May 1997 journal.

    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-10-2018 19:30
    You may be thinking of Joseph Klepac's string gauge chart. It can be found in The Piano-It's Acoustics by W. V. McFerrin, which I think is still available from Schaff.

    ------------------------------
    Craig Miller
    Marietta GA
    770-321-9390
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-10-2018 22:23
    Former PTGJ Technical Editor Don Galt, RPT had an axiom that went like this. "All wire breaks at the same length". With bigger diameter wire the tension will rise, and the tension that the wire breaks at will rise, but the percent of break point the wire is placed at when at pitch will be the same. What this means is that the increasing tension of bigger wire also means the tension at the break point is higher but the ratio between tension and break point is constant across the wire sizes.

    Now there is a corollary to this that the smaller diameter wires, (12.5 to 15)  are a little "stronger" than the bigger sizes. So smaller sizes of wire would be less likely to break in the high treble than if it were strung with heavier wire.

    ------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-10-2018 22:55
    Ryan, I think there is some confusion. I would simply carry 18 feet of wire for each gauge. You'd be able to replace one doubled string of #20 wire and have more than enough for all other lengths. Though you may want to carry only 10' of #12.5 ​​​

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-10-2018 23:01
    I think Floyd is pointing me in the right direction!

    Ed: I think I wasn't very clear. For each wire size on a piano, there is a maximum length that you are likely to encounter for that wire gauge. If you know that length you can carry one piece of wire of each size and never end up with too short of a piece. This allows you to potentially replace a string without having to go out to the car and get the stringing kit.

    I recently purchased the music wire holder from Pianotek that holds 10 sizes of wire on one holder (part D-31). I was hoping to get some info on the lengths of wire that I should carry in it.
    wire holder

    ------------------------------
    Ryan Sowers
    Olympia WA
    360-705-4160
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-10-2018 23:16
    I think I know what you are looking for. Look in the October 2007 journal on page 19.

    ------------------------------
    Craig Miller
    Marietta GA
    770-321-9390
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-10-2018 23:26
    Hi, Ryan,

    Spot on.

    Go to the longest piano that you are likely to service (for most of us,
    that's an S&S D), measure the longest length of each given size from the
    hitch pin past the tuning pin to whatever normal length you use for
    stringing purposes...add a couple of inches for the inevitable
    unforeseeable issues. Do the same for each size wire on the box. (I
    include all half-sizes, just in case). Cut several lengths for each
    size of wire.

    I usually carry three lengths of each size, secured by small lengths of
    1/4" cloth medical tape...which does not leave the string indelibly
    marked...rolled up just small enough to fit into half-gallon Ziploc
    freezer bags. The bags are legibly labeled with a wide Sharpie. I
    carry them about in a flat leather briefcase I used in another life.

    While it's not necessarily a perfect solution, it's easily modifiable
    for smaller or larger coils.

    While I did try the coil system you've pictured, I found it too slow and
    cumbersome to be really useful (for my own work)...but, I was largely
    doing concert and recording work, much/most of which doesn't really
    allow enough time (anymore) to do much of anything all that well. So, I
    found having string lengths that were effectively pre-cut to be highly
    valuable. Obviously, YMMV.

    I do think that much of the discussion on some of these kinds of things
    often does not realize how very individual this work is. What works for
    one person, with one clientele, in one (usually very limited) area
    simply does not necessarily work for anyone else, anywhere else. Again,
    obviously, YMMV.

    Kind regards.

    Horace


    On 10/10/2018 8:01 PM, Ryan Sowers via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >
    > I think Floyd is pointing me in the right direction!
    >
    > Ed: I think I wasn't very clear. For each wire size on a piano, there is a maximum length that you are likely to encounter for that wire gauge. If you know that length you can carry one piece of wire of each size and never end up with too short of a piece. This allows you to potentially replace a string without having to go out to the car and get the stringing kit.
    >
    > I recently purchased the music wire holder from Pianotek that holds 10 sizes of wire on one holder (part D-31). I was hoping to get some info on the lengths of wire that I should carry in it.
    >
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Ryan Sowers
    > Olympia WA
    > 360-705-4160
    > ------------------------------
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 10-10-2018 22:22
    > From: Edward McMorrow
    > Subject: maximum wire length per note?
    >
    > Former PTGJ Technical Editor Don Galt, RPT had an axiom that went like this. "All wire breaks at the same length". With bigger diameter wire the tension will rise, and the tension that the wire breaks at will rise, but the percent of break point the wire is placed at when at pitch will be the same. What this means is that the increasing tension of bigger wire also means the tension at the break point is higher but the ratio between tension and break point is constant across the wire sizes.
    >
    > Now there is a corollary to this that the smaller diameter wires, (12.5 to 15) ??are a little "stronger" than the bigger sizes. So smaller sizes of wire would be less likely to break in the high treble than if it were strung with heavier wire.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Edward McMorrow
    > Edmonds WA
    > 425-299-3431
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 10-10-2018 19:30
    > From: Craig Miller
    > Subject: maximum wire length per note?
    >
    > You may be thinking of Joseph Klepac's string gauge chart. It can be found in The Piano-It's Acoustics by W. V. McFerrin, which I think is still available from Schaff.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Craig Miller
    > Marietta GA
    > 770-321-9390
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 10-10-2018 17:19
    > From: Ryan Sowers
    > Subject: maximum wire length per note?
    >
    > Hi everyone,
    >
    > I know I have seen a chart where someone figured out the maximum length of wire for a replacement for each size of wire. I've searched around and haven't been able to track it down. Does anybody have that info?
    >
    > Thanks!
    >
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Ryan Sowers
    > Olympia WA
    > 360-705-4160
    > ------------------------------
    >
    >
    > Reply to Sender : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=8e6f7054-4591-4fbb-a605-f8e908bb6fb0&MID=694686&MDATE=756%253d465465&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >
    > Reply to Discussion : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=694686&MDATE=756%253d465465&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
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    >




  • 9.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-11-2018 10:33
    Hi Ryan,
    Without seeing Dan’s article, I’ve heard a very simple manner to supply your strings from him. If the second whole digit is 2 (12, or 12.5,) then you’d need 2 feet. If the second while digit is 3, then bring 3 feet of wire, and so on.
    It’s quite hard to forget that one.

    Joe Wiencek




  • 10.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-11-2018 11:49
    Joe, just funning with you. That will work up to number 19.5, don't try it on 20 gauge or you'll have twice nothing.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-12-2018 11:06
    Haha! You’re right, Larry! Although I don’t carry 20 gauge wire around, except for a piece long enough to splice a bass string.

    Joe




  • 12.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-12-2018 09:50
    Hi Ryan,
    Without seeing Dan’s article, I’ve heard a very simple manner to supply your strings from him. If the second whole digit is 2 (12, or 12.5,) then you’d need 2 feet. If the second while digit is 3, then bring 3 feet of wire, and so on.
    It’s quite hard to forget that one.

    Joe Wiencek




  • 13.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-11-2018 07:20
    My thoughts on this generally mirror Horace's. I also found the jig you have to be a bit cumbersome in use. And I also have come up with string lengths like Horace did - what length of piano do you wish to be prepared for. In my case it is not common for me to service 9' pianos - sad but true. I do have a few that I service, but have never had a broken string on any of them, so I don't feel the need to carry strings for them every day. I base my string lengths on a Yamaha C3 - plus a few inches. I figure that will cover 98+% of the piano I commonly service (I should be good for anything 7-foot and smaller - obviously, it wouldn't be much more of an effort to have some longer tenor gauges to cover the 9-footers).

    I think I have come up with a very easy to use and compact way to carry replacement plain wire strings with me on a daily basis. See photos below.

    The first picture shows the basic system. I use cardboard CD-rom mailers to put a few coils of wire of each gauge (three coils for each small gauge down to one coil for large gauge). They really pack nice and  small this way, the wires don't get nicked, and everything is easily accessible and easy to keep track of which gauges might need to be replenished in the kit.

    The next picture shows my full wire/tool kit. Pretty much everything standard: micrometer, vice grips, etc. Things I find really nice are my pair of compound needle-nose pliers (so very nice for tightening becket bends). And the wire cutter on them allows me to leave my large heavy dedicated wire cutter in my shop. The nice bright LED headlight is great for seeing what you are doing. And least of all, a good clean(ish) napkin for wiping up blood spatter and drips.

    The last photo shows one CD mailer. I write the gauge, diameter, length (for measuring string to replenish my kit), and when I use one coil, I indicate that under the "need" heading. I see I also wrote a note to make the next strings six inches longer next time - I guess I must have run across a piano that needed a bit extra length.

    So that's my recommendation, pick lengths based on something reasonable - a PTG Journal article, a handy piano, whatever. And then adjust lengths as time goes on and you find a little shorter or longer meets your needs better.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-11-2018 12:34
    Thanks a lot everyone! Really great information. I'm always impressed by the generosity of this list!

    ------------------------------
    Ryan Sowers
    Olympia WA
    360-705-4160
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-12-2018 11:47
    Edited by Zeno Wood 10-12-2018 11:49
    Here are my measurements taken from a Steinway B.

    13 - 30"
    13.5 - 32"
    14 - 34"

    14.5 - 36"
    15 - 42"
    15.5 - 50"
    16 - 57"
    16.5 - 63"
    17 - 98"
    18 - 144"
    19 - 144"
    20 - 144"

    This is the absolute minimum you can get away with. I measured the distance from tuning pin to hitch pin for the longest segment of each gauge, multiplied by 2, then added 6" for two coils. You should add a few inches just so you don't come up a little bit short. For a smaller piano, you'll have some waste with these numbers, and for a 9-foot piano you'll come up short.

    I pack it up in a hard shell CD wallet, not that anyone has those anymore.
    For storing pre-cut lengths of piano wire
    CD wallet for storing pre-cut lengths of piano wire

    ------------------------------
    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-13-2018 13:33
    I would second Zeno’s carrying case (cause I use it too,) and I have used the wire carrying contraption purchased from supply houses. It makes a nice display, but very cumbersome to load and unload. The CD case is simple and it works.

    Joe




  • 17.  RE: maximum wire length per note?

    Posted 10-16-2018 19:32
    Edited by Floyd Gadd 10-16-2018 19:32
    I dropped a 1 pound canister of Paulello 15 1/2 O wire today, and it popped open.  It didn't exactly fill the room, but I had a tangle that was never going to get back into the canister.  I now have about 60 five foot lengths of wire, currently sitting comfortably in a shipping carton for bass strings.  I'll try not to do that again.

    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
    ------------------------------