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eroded key sides

  • 1.  eroded key sides

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2018 12:13
      |   view attached
    Hello gang,

    I have an old Mason & Hamlin with sizable gaps between the naturals.  Any good method for building up the sides of the keys before new keytops are applied?

    Thanks,
    Zeno

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    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
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  • 2.  RE: eroded key sides

    Member
    Posted 10-12-2018 12:39
    what year is this piano built ? have to removed any of the keys to see if they had been milled down ? It might be useful to talk to Pianotek to see what a new set of keys would cost. Even if you could build out the sides of the keys you would need all new key coverings. I had a Story and Clark studio in a school here that had very, very narrow keysticks however the keytop material was molded on all sides and there was very little spacing between keys and it in fact looked great. Maybe one of the key recovering services like Mike Morvan or Walker Key Service in kentucky can help

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 3.  RE: eroded key sides

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2018 13:01
    Wow, those are big gaps! I'm wondering the same thing as Mr. Kelly: Would it be possible to just add properly fitting keytops? Do the key sticks themselves have any affect on the overall product? If it were possible to just use new keytops, I would think you'd have to keep a close eye on the bushings over the years....

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    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
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  • 4.  RE: eroded key sides

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2018 14:34
    I just wanted to mention that I had Walker do a set of keytops & bushings last year-has significant issues! I was very surprised since I had used them about 15 years or so ago & it was good work. I always hate to share negative but I would just hate to see anyone else "burned".
    (It took FOREVER...he had to call me several times...he was having trouble with his supplier...then something else..etc..
    The worst of it was the sloppy work. I had to trim quite a few bushings & of course Re-size with solution & cauls and had to smooth out a bunch of rough edges, etc. 

    I just used Debra Legg this summer & her work is AMAZING! (And I'm sure Morvan's Is as well). 
    Kevin F

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    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
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  • 5.  RE: eroded key sides

    Posted 10-12-2018 13:01
    I repaired a set like this by gluing basswood strips to the sides.
    If the keysides are tapered from sloppy repair, good, that gives you an index edge on the bottom.
    I scraped the keysides to get clean wood and glued on the strips with medium viscosity CA glue (waterproof).
    Using the good bottom edge against a guide, trim the sides on a bandsaw.
    Then, make a 90 degree sanding block smooth on the bottom), place the key on a smooth tabletop and dress the sides.
    If you don't have good bottom edge indexing, figure out what to do.
    Finish off the tops as you would for recovering.
    About one day's work.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 6.  RE: eroded key sides

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2018 13:34
    Thanks Ed, that's a great description.  I'll take another look to see if the keys are trapezoids or rectangles.

    It's a 1918 model A.  I think there had been a good deal of erosion and someone before me thought to clean them up by holding them against a sander.  So maybe they're rectangles and I'm denied an index mark of overall width.

    Zeno

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    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
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  • 7.  RE: eroded key sides

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2018 14:46
    Zeno,

    I think that the reason the gaps are so large is that someone filed the sides of the keys to fit current width key tops. The Univ. of NE had a couple of Masons that I thought had really wide keys, both naturals and the ebony keys. They were great for people with big hands, but not so good for regular to small hands. I wanted to get a new keyboard to correct that and bring the key size smaller, or should I say current. Those Mason keys were just too big as far as I was concerned. I think the standard these days is for the keyboard width to be around 4 feet, and that's standard. Bottom line: opt for a new set of keys, and key frame. The only caveat there would be that the new keys would still have to fit to the whippens. That could perhaps create awkward doglegs.

    Richard West








  • 8.  RE: eroded key sides

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2018 15:24
    Hi Richard,

    This is getting more and more complicated!

    I'm pretty sure these are the original ivory keytops, but who knows I guess.

    Thanks
    Zeno

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    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
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  • 9.  RE: eroded key sides

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2018 19:45
    Hi Zeno,

    I took the liberty of enhancing and downsizing your original image using GIMP. The keytop grain and keytop tail joints show very well. It appears to show that someone struggled with gluing the keytops back on.



    Paul.

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    Paul Brown, RPT
    President
    Piano Technicians Guild
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Email: pres@ptg.org
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  • 10.  RE: eroded key sides

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2018 20:01

    Paul,

    Your response is so lovely, "someone struggled with" reflecting an

    appreciation of endeavors.  (I didn't look closely at the photo, but

    am assuming there were problems that could have been chalked up

    to poor skills.)

    If we could come around to such an open style of communication in

    today's climate, we would be well served.  I applaud your civility.

    Ruth

     

    Ruth Zeiner

    215-534-3834 cell

    ruth@alliedpiano.com

     






  • 11.  RE: eroded key sides

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2018 15:14
    Zeno, I believe that Rick Wheeler of Roseland Piano Company near Portland, OR has done this job in the past -- shimming out the narrow keysticks so that when they are recovered the gaps are just right. I think he mostly replaces the keys now, but you could talk with him about the possibilities.

    Rick Wheeler, 503-654-1888, rick@roselandpiano.com
    www.roselandpiano.com

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 12.  RE: eroded key sides

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2018 17:17
    Zeno-
    There's someone I've worked with in Westchesyer who does quite a decent job of this. Let me know if you'd be interested.

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 13.  RE: eroded key sides

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2018 23:12
    I have rebuilt key sides of otherwise still healthy keysticks using birch veneer. I use the new one piece keytops as my template. And I use calipers and a small machinists square to maintain and/or establish uniformity and symetry. The tool that helps this process well is an 18" stationary disc sander. I sand the sides down before gluing the veneer leaving them just a tiny bit wide. I turn the disc by hand, under power the thing removes material way too fast. The disc has enough mass I can set it spinning by hand. The finest removal is just holding the key and slowly turning the disc. I have enough calluses the abrasive doesn't destroy my skin. But sometimes I reinforce my finger tips with masking tape. The birch resists finger gouges much better than softwood. I also do this after the keys have been bushed and squared. It is a two day job.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 14.  RE: eroded key sides

    Posted 10-13-2018 09:17
    You could also onlay a ¼" thick piece of wood for a new top to be installed. I have also transplanted keytops by making an onlay from a good salvaged set and installing on the recipient. You don't need to build out the complete side of the key, only the top portion exposed at full dip.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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