Thanks, Debbie, I didn't know you could buy just the springs. I found butterfly springs at Schaff in two sizes (bass and treble, different wire diameters -- thanks, John), as well as the spring cord (oh, fun).
I went through similar tradeoffs with broken hammer flange spring cords on a Yamaha upright last year.
Plan A: Replace cords on existing flanges
Pro: avoid re-traveling shanks, cheaper cost of parts
Con: lots of labor, with downtime while <g class="gr_ gr_171 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_disable_anim_appear Grammar only-ins replaceWithoutSep" id="171" data-gr-id="171">glue</g> dries; flange bushings not replaced
Plan B: Install new flanges
Pro: work <g class="gr_ gr_276 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_disable_anim_appear Grammar multiReplace" id="276" data-gr-id="276">complete</g> in one pass, less labor. <g class="gr_ gr_408 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_disable_anim_appear Grammar only-ins doubleReplace replaceWithoutSep" id="408" data-gr-id="408">Side</g> benefit of new center pins and bushings, which were also worn. No traveling needed.
Con: <g class="gr_ gr_406 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_disable_anim_appear Grammar only-ins replaceWithoutSep" id="406" data-gr-id="406">higher</g> cost of parts, but not excessive, considering the benefits.
I went with Plan B. The side benefit of solid flanges was the tipping point. Imagine the additional labor of <g class="gr_ gr_488 gr-alert gr_spell gr_disable_anim_appear ContextualSpelling ins-del multiReplace" id="488" data-gr-id="488">rebushing</g> all of them.
OK, back to the Steinway B, rebuilt in otherwise excellent condition, in the home of a high-level player who performs.I believe in the "Rule of Six": if more than that break, they all will. Assume all rep springs are bad.
Plan A: Replace springs on existing <g class="gr_ gr_761 gr-alert gr_spell gr_disable_anim_appear ContextualSpelling" id="761" data-gr-id="761">wippens</g>
Pro: <g class="gr_ gr_784 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_disable_anim_appear Grammar only-ins doubleReplace replaceWithoutSep" id="784" data-gr-id="784">cost</g> of replacement springs: about $30. Low labor cost; low risk of side effects.
Con: if there are spring cords that need to be <g class="gr_ gr_1070 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_disable_anim_appear Punctuation only-del replaceWithoutSep" id="1070" data-gr-id="1070">replaced,</g> or spring slots that need to be cleaned and lubricated, labor goes way up
Plan B: Replace existing wippens
Pro: work is completed in one pass, in the home. <g class="gr_ gr_1194 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_disable_anim_appear Grammar only-ins doubleReplace replaceWithoutSep" id="1194" data-gr-id="1194">Side</g> benefit of two new action centers and spring cords (if applicable).
Con: <g class="gr_ gr_1248 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_disable_anim_appear Grammar only-ins doubleReplace replaceWithoutSep" id="1248" data-gr-id="1248">cost</g> of replacement <g class="gr_ gr_1249 gr-alert gr_spell gr_disable_anim_appear ContextualSpelling ins-del multiReplace" id="1249" data-gr-id="1249">wips</g>: about $1,000. High probability of labor in traveling and affecting every other regulation step.
I was leaning toward Plan A until Debbie mentioned those spring cords, which adds a lot more work. Still, it seems exorbitant to spend a grand on a whole new set when only the springs are bad, especially when there will be a lot of labor involved in getting it right. They're angled capstans, so Steinway parts aren't available. Renner parts have the advantage of the tension adjustment <g class="gr_ gr_1703 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_disable_anim_appear Punctuation only-del replaceWithoutSep" id="1703" data-gr-id="1703">screw,</g> and the elimination of the spring slot.
On the other hand, a complete restoration should have replaced these along with the back action, which is what the second-best model Steinway deserves. The investment would pay off in the long run. At some point, the piano itself becomes my customer. That would be the best thing for the piano, regardless of who owns it at the moment.
Plan C could be swapping in some old parts on the ones that break for now. Given the high cost of <g class="gr_ gr_1972 gr-alert gr_spell gr_disable_anim_appear ContextualSpelling ins-del multiReplace" id="1972" data-gr-id="1972">wippens</g>, I might go with the "Rule of Twelve" or more...
--Cy--
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Cy Shuster, RPT
Albuquerque, NM
http://www.shusterpiano.com------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 03-14-2018 00:17
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Broken repetition spring
Ah, the plot thickens! Yes, you can get repetition springs, though I'm not with catalogs right now, so I can't say which of the suppliers does NOT carry them. The potential problem there is that you can't just go and order a repetition spring. Even a whole set probably doesn't manage to fulfill the minimums that most have, so, unless you can get a couple from a local friend, you could end up spending more to get that one spring than the cost of the replacement wip you have lying around, although you could just canibalize that spring, as someone already suggested. But you managed to present conflicting scenarios:
You first said:
... the rest of the repetition (whippen) is fine:..
followed by:
I'll bet a lot of them will break (I stopped adjusting after this one, in the second octave). Many are bent almost into a semicircle, and still don't provide enough force.
It sounds like these may not, in fact, be quite so fine. As original parts, the spring slots may be quite gunked up (technical term), and your assessment of the likely fate of the numerous over-bent springs is probably accurate, which means that:
- you're going to get really good at replacing springs
- you should propose to restore the set: replace all springs, clean and relube spring slot, OR
- replace all reps to match the other new parts. It's just money
It really depends upon whose choice it is - you or the customer.
It's somewhat remarkable that these parts don't appear to be affected by vertigris
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David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
Original Message:
Sent: 03-13-2018 23:38
From: Cy Shuster
Subject: Broken repetition spring
Thanks for all the feedback.
It's nice that when hammers are worn, usually the knuckles and flanges are shot, too, so it makes sense to replace them all.
In this case, the rest of the repetition (<g class="gr_ gr_94 gr-alert gr_spell gr_disable_anim_appear ContextualSpelling ins-del multiReplace" id="94" data-gr-id="94">whippen</g>) is fine: the felt, both action centers, and the <g class="gr_ gr_177 gr-alert gr_spell gr_disable_anim_appear ContextualSpelling ins-del multiReplace" id="177" data-gr-id="177">balancier</g> leather. Plus it's traveled and so on.
Can you even buy just a rep spring, or do you make your own? I'll bet a lot of them will break (I stopped adjusting after this one, in the second octave). Many are bent almost into a semicircle, and <g class="gr_ gr_479 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_disable_anim_appear Punctuation only-ins replaceWithoutSep" id="479" data-gr-id="479">still</g> don't provide enough force.
--Cy--
------------------------------
Cy Shuster, RPT
Albuquerque, NM
http://www.shusterpiano.com
Original Message:
Sent: 03-13-2018 18:24
From: John Rhodes
Subject: Broken repetition spring
Absolutely as Don says! Be sure to match the diameter of the repetition wire to the nearest 0.001 inch; that's important for proper operation. Rob the appropriate wire from a new wippen if necessary.
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John Rhodes
Vancouver WA
360-721-0728
Original Message:
Sent: 03-13-2018 18:21
From: Donald Mannino
Subject: Broken repetition spring
Cy,
I'd replace the spring for sure, unless something else in the wippen is saying it's time for a new set!
Don Mannino
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
Original Message------
Trying to adjust repetition springs on a 100-year-old B today, I had one break. Is it practical to replace just the spring, or does the labor exceed the cost of a new part?
The piano is otherwise in great shape: restrung, new hammers/shanks/flanges, but with original repetitions and back action.
--Cy--
------------------------------
Cy Shuster, RPT
Albuquerque, NM
http://www.shusterpiano.com
------------------------------