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Yamaha Flange replacement

  • 1.  Yamaha Flange replacement

    Posted 10-13-2018 22:44
    Hello 

    I am going to quote on a Yamaha flange replacement job and I don't want to undercharge (as I seem to be in the habit of doing).

    What do you all think is a fair price for this type of job?  I have replaced a few here and there on school pianos, but have never done a full set.  I guess-timate that it would take 5-8 hours to do this.

    Thanks for any info you all might have
    Patrick

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    Patrick Greene
    Associate
    Knoxville TN
    865-384-6582
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  • 2.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2018 23:08
    Hi Patrick:
    The time sounds about right. Just multiply your hourly rate times your time estimate, add parts cost, pickup and delivery charges (mileage or ?). Pretty straightforward, actually.
    If this is an upright, I usually replace the cords on the flanges while they're still attached to the rail. Usually, the flange bushings are ok. Replacing the whole flange requires a lot of time spacing the hammers again, and that might require pulling the shanks from the butts, regluing, etc., which is a lot of hassle and work.
    On a grand, well, your mileage may vary.
    Good luck.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego



    Hello
    I am going to quote on a Yamaha flange replacement job and I don't want to undercharge (as I seem to be in the habit of doing).

    What do you all think is a fair price for this type of job? I have replaced a few here and there on school pianos, but have never done a full set. I guess-timate that it would take 5-8 hours to do this.

    Thanks for any info you all might have
    Patrick

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    Associate
    Knoxville TN
    865-384-6582





  • 3.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Posted 10-14-2018 06:08
    Paul M. wrote:  "If this is an upright, I usually replace the cords on the flanges while they're still attached to the rail."

    I know I really need to crawl out from living under this rock, but dog-gonnit, I do believe this is the first time I've heard of doing a flange cord job without removing each flange from the rail. Clearly, leaving them in place has the potential to save a lot of time and work. Is there a writeup in the PTG Journal of how to do the job on the rail?

    Thanks!


    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2018 10:04
    Hi Terry:
    I'm pretty sure it's in the archives, not sure if there's an article. Maybe Tips 'n Tricks section. There are two iterations of the flanges. One has the metal plate with a screw, and the other doesn't. The ones that don't have the plate have to come off the rail.
    Basically, if you have the action with the plates, you can remove the butts by loosening the screw. Remove the hammer rest rail. You can use a hack saw blade (I use an X-acto thin kerf saw with a handle) to remove the old cords from their slot. Goes pretty fast. The replacement cord I use is braided fishing line. It's at my shop, so I can't identify exact size and brand just now. Anyway, you can wrap the cord around a dowel (size I forgot) a bunch of times and then slice along the dowel with a razor blade so that the loops come out the size you need. I glued some popsicle sticks together to do the same thing. Either way, it makes quick work to get a bunch of equal sized loops. The thin kerf blade is just the right size for the thin fishing line to tuck into the slot so that it stays there while you put some glue to hold it there. I"ve used PVC-E, but I prefer to use thick CA glue or Gel CA glue so it doesn't run all over and glue your flange bushings. Don't ask.. With CA, you can use the accelerator to cure the glue instantly. With a proper applicator, you can lay it in the groove and press the cord into it. Or drip it on there after the cord is in the slot. Do one side one section at a time, and then go back and form the loop and push the other end of the cord in the other slot and glue it. Gotta have the action cradle or some way to hold the action. Then, reassemble the whole thing again. It is possible to not remove the bridle tapes but let them dangle, tho I usually remove them.
    If you don't have the plates, you'll have to remove the flange/butts and put them in a vise, then do the same thing. I think you've probably done as above anyway, as far as replacing the cord loops.
    This job is about the only thing I have to do on a Yamaha console. At least they throw us this bone to give us something to do when there's more time than money.
    YMMV
    Paul McCloud
    San DIego




  • 5.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-15-2018 08:17
    There were some Journal articles about the how to do the job with out removing the flanges from the rail.  They were written by Jeff Hickey.  I don't remember when they appeared, but I'm sure you could send an email to Jeff and he could tell you.

    David Weiss

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    David Weiss
    Charlottesville VA
    434-823-9733
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  • 6.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-15-2018 08:37
    who would like to teach a hands- on session in Tucson on their quick and accurate method doing this? 

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    Douglas Laing
    Tuner/Technician
    Tampa FL
    727-539-9602
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  • 7.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Member
    Posted 10-15-2018 11:36
    hey i am game to teach

    jim kelly
    fur elise piano service
    843 325 4357

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 8.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Posted 10-15-2018 12:16
    Jeff Hickey has coverrd this thoroughly on Journal articles.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 9.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Posted 10-14-2018 10:11
    Your 8 hours is probably, closer, since I do standard flanges in about that time.
    (Shop time plus installation) 
    I am a fan of using the "The Piano Technician's Guide", from PTG of course.
    It's a rate book, like mechanics have.
    State's various times for common tasks.

    I like to show the customer the book and tell them
    "The rate book states the labor that a qualified piano technician should take to complete the job".
    Let's them know I'm not just making up a number.
    Also tell them, if it takes me longer, I take the loss.

    ---- quote 
    On page  3 titled "Butts & Flanges"
    Flange Replacement (set)....  Grand 6.0+,  Direct Blow 6.0,      Drop Action 6.5 hours.

    '+' = Hours indicated plus cost of materials or other expenses incurred except travel.
    ---- end of quote

    Note: in the book the '+' is not printed on the Direct and Drop Action hours but should be, IMO.

    I add 2 hours for the installation and regulation.

    ------------------------------
    Richard Primeaux
    Associated PTG member
    Hammond LA
    225-235-9394
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  • 10.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Posted 10-14-2018 11:22
    I'm about to do two. Attached is my procedure. Attached is a photo of the tools I use.
    The tool on the far left has the pin for the drill to wrap the cord around. I use fishing line.

    I generally include a regulation with it.
    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 11.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Posted 10-14-2018 11:30
    When there is not a butt plate, I hold the flange in a vise and clean out the slots.
    To glue the second side, the hammer is rotated in the opposite direction on the flange.




    Hammers Tapered


    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2018 13:42
    Patrick,
    I forgot. Yamaha replacement flanges come with the center pins installed.
    Roger





  • 13.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2018 14:01
    Patrick,
    STOP THE PRESSES. If you have the action with butt plates, you're job is going to be a walk through the park. The major problem with flange replacement is the potential arduous and time consuming job of spacing hammers into the original string groove, hence the push to keep the original flanges and replace only the cords. Hammer spacing and massive regulation is what I found, with aftermarket replacement flanges. Forget all the clever cord replacement techniques or deciding to removing the flanges from the rail or not. Yamaha sells a complete set of replacement flanges for about $120. These replacement flanges are precisely machined to the point where hammer spacing and regulation is almost a non-issue. Using Yamaha replacement flanges reduces your time to about 2 – 3 hours. I've done several times.
    Roger





  • 14.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2018 14:02
    Apparently, my original response to this question wasn't posted. Here is my original post.
     
    Patrick,
    STOP THE PRESSES. If you have the action with butt plates, you're job is going to be a walk through the park. The major problem with flange replacement is the potential arduous and time consuming job of spacing hammers into the original string groove, hence the push to keep the original flanges and replace only the cords. Hammer spacing and massive regulation is what I found, with aftermarket replacement flanges. Forget all the clever cord replacement techniques or deciding to removing the flanges from the rail or not. Yamaha sells a complete set of replacement flanges for about $120. These replacement flanges are precisely machined to the point where hammer spacing and regulation is almost a non-issue. Using Yamaha replacement flanges reduces your time to about 2 – 3 hours. I've done several times.
    Roger





  • 15.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Posted 10-14-2018 15:17
    You can replace the cords on the standard butt version without removing the assemblies from the rail.
    Proceed as usual, removing dampers and rails, unhooking tapes to drop the wippens out of the way, clean out the old cord from the slots and cut new cord to length.
    Glue the cords to one side of their flanges.
    Support the action a little tilted back, let the hammers drop to the back side of the rail and support the hammers such that when the cord is pulled around and glued into its second slot, the hammers don't pull against the cord.
    Put a tiny drop of glue in the slot. (Use a small point or toothpick.) I use yellow wood glue.
    Use tweezers or a small hemostat to pull the cord in place and press it in the slot with a tiny flat blade screwdriver.
    The flange geometry gives you an index for the cord ends.
    The top section is easiest, so start there and work out your details of sequence.
    The tiny bit of glue dries quickly.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2018 15:53
      |   view attached
    I believe I heard about the procedure for leaving the flanges on the rail by removing the dampers from Jeff Hickey, who had worked it out.

    Ted Sambell made a nice little jig for holding the flanges once they were removed, and sent me one.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 17.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-16-2018 08:50
    Nice fixture Susan! 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 18.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-16-2018 22:24
    Ted liked to make really pretty little things, and every now and then one would arrive in my mailbox.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 19.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2018 02:58
    Well, it seems like it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. No one has said that replacing the loop is any faster than replacing the flanges, expecially the ones with the metal plates. The cost of new flanges can't be higher the the labor cost of rebuilding the old ones, both are certainly legitimate approaches.
    I replace the flanges and file and shape the hammers so there is no problem with the hammer spacing. Since I already have the hammer out, it takes me about 15 seconds per hammer to file and shape them on a bench belt sander with a 250 grit belt. I get very good square results. It is really difficult to get all the hammers spaced to fit into the original grooves one if elects not to file them, in that case leaving the flanges screwed in is probably the most cost efficient way.
    Either way this job is not cheap so even though the original flanges are usually okay, I think the customer is better served getting brand new bushings and pins and the hammers invariably are in need of filing and shaping.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI

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  • 20.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2018 17:37

    ​Steven,
    It's interesting that you imply that you choose replacement rather than repair. One factor I didn't consider when I suggested to all that replacement was the cost effective way to approach this job is the labor cost difference throughout the world. The approximately $120 cost of new flanges may represent a larger monetary component in one region than in another. This factor came to mind when Chris C. mentioned that $5,000 was the approximate cost to replace a soundboard and bridges in an old upright piano. Given the cost of living (hence the piano technicians fees) in this area (Seattle) it would cost approximately twice the $5,000 to replace a soundboard and $120 cost of replacement flanges is far more cost effective than labor time to repair.
    Roger



    ------------------------------
    Roger Gable
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    425-252-5000
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  • 21.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Posted 10-17-2018 20:30
    I've been a proponent of replacing the cords. I haven't done it in many years because I have had my son perform this task. He's moved out of town so today I replaced the cords on flanges without butt plates. It took most of the day, never again. I can repin a rail in 1.5 hours. Replacing the flanges is a major time savings, making it cost effective.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 22.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2018 09:14
    Yes, I replaced just the cords… once. Ever since then, I have replaced the flanges, which has been more productive.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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  • 23.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2018 00:24
    Roger, actually I think I paid $85 for the last set I got from them a few months ago. They dropped the price to $36 per set for a couple of years and then sometime earlier in the year they went back up without warning. But yes, it comes down to cost efficiency, also, who gets what. The person who replaces the loops gets the cost of labor as opposed to Yamaha for the new flanges, fair enough.
    As my vision and dexterity slowly decline I'm less inclined to replace 88 1.25" threads glued at both ends even though the methods described here make it quite doable. One thing I consider in terms of methodologies is how many tools are involved. Picking up and putting down tools can end up being a large component of labor. 8+ tools to put in and pull up a tuning pin and wire for example. If I nip all the new center pins in advance which saves me from picking up and putting down the nippers x88, I've found the Yamaha flanges to be consistently well pinned btw, then I can remove and replace the flange with two screwdrivers - one for the flange screw and one for the little plate screw. Weighed against all the tools, glue, and hand work that's added to replacing the loops it's much more efficient for me even when I factor in filing the hammers.


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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI

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  • 24.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2018 00:56
    While we're on the subject. Yamaha flanges are a  perfect fit for Yamahas. The flanges Piano Tek sells are good, they are also manufactured in Japan, well pinned with minimal need for traveling. 
    Samick used some synthetic that gets hard and breaks on both uprights and grand whippen flanges. There are also some Kimball Schwander actions with a black loop on the flange, these flanges are narrower in width than standard and the holes don't line up perfectly either. Replacing the loops might be a better way to go with those. This is true of some European actions as well.

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI

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  • 25.  RE: Yamaha Flange replacement

    Posted 10-18-2018 06:52
    I'll still remove the flanges from the rail in order to reshape the hammers. An oscillating spindle sander is the best tool for the job.

    Edit: In order to replace the flanges, they must come off the rail.
    But even if one were to just replace the loops, the hammers need reshaping to complete the job.
    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page