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Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

  • 1.  Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Posted 08-16-2018 12:34
    I'm looking for a copy of "New techniques for a superior aural tuning" by Virgil Smith which is no longer available. I called the PTG office and they are out and will no longer carry it. Format doesn't matter, ebook or pdf is fine. Or i can purchase a hard copy.
    Thanks,
    P.S. I know there is a copy on Amazon, I don't do Amazon, Bezos has enough money already.
    -chris



    ------------------------------
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it".

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-16-2018 13:10
    I got mine from Schaff about three months ago. Check there before you give more money to Amazon. 😉

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Posted 08-16-2018 13:20
    Thanks, i'll check. BTW, what do you think of it?
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it".

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-16-2018 15:01
    I enjoyed it. It explains what whole tone tuning is, but I'll let you read about it for yourself. Don't want to spoil the surprise....

    (Worth the $13 bucks I paid for it, that's for sure.)

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Posted 08-16-2018 21:44
    I took a couple of Virgil's classes back in the day. I spent a lot of time talking to him in the halls of the hotel too. Very nice man. His aural tuning ideas were above my head at the time.   I'm still not sure what he meant by natural beats. 
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it".

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-16-2018 21:52
    I think he explains it in his book, but I don't remember for sure. My understanding was that the "natural beats" refers to the interaction between all strings of one unison and all the strings of another unison. I'll have to look in the book when I get home to find out...

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Posted 08-17-2018 07:14
    Virgil and I had several wonderful conversations in the last years of his life. By "natural beats" understand "what it sounds like when you don't focus on individual partials." Virgil felt there was a difference between "God-given natural hearing" and "scientific hearing." He was a very patient, meticulous tuner. When I asked if he could tune his "beatless octaves" on a Yamaha P-22 he thought a while and answered "I guess I really only tuned big grand pianos."
    Despite his theoretical limitations, Virgil was a wonderful intuitive tuner, and a profound influence. His technics were sound.
    The PTG Foundation produced a video of Virgil tuning with Alan Zajicek, perhaps still available.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-18-2018 09:01
    Ed, is this what Virgil meant when he referred to the "whole note"?  I've seen his use of this term defined as tuning without mutes so as to hear all three unison strings at once, but your description of his thinking sounds like a better definition.

    ------------------------------
    Kent Burnside, RPT
    Franklin TN
    615.430.0653
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-17-2018 17:59
    Darn! Unfortunate that this will no longer be available. Only have one copy myself & it is autographed by Virgil. 
    Future E-book????! 😱😱

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-17-2018 21:06
    Benjamin,

    You have it right. "Natural beats" (as I see it) is simply  Virgil's way of describing the phenomenon of listening to the piano as it is...naturally...not one string per note, parsing out higher partials, but rather all strings per note...however our brain interprets that combination.

    Therefore he felt (wisely) that it would be better to tune in this way so as to get closer to what we would "naturally" hear in the final product. He documented the fact that very often a three string unison "sounds" slightly flatter than the individual strings alone. Whatever the "cause" of this, better to hear it and compensate for it early on. 

    He is a little short on explaining precisely what to do in certain situations, but on the whole it is a very, very good manual. He honestly admitted that he did not fully understand all the "whys", but simply presented what he learned to do with what he heard.

    At least that's the way I see it. I have benefited from it.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-18-2018 05:24
    In Virgil's book 'New Techniques For Superior Aural Tuning' he makes the following comments: 

    "Every tuner should be able to hear the beat by listening to the notes naturally-it is the way musicians and listeners hear them-and hearing them this way is the way the final quality of the tuning is judged. The finest quality aural tuning can be accomplished by dealing only with natural beats.

    No matter what method of tuning is used, the final evaluation must be with the natural beat heard when listening to the whole sound of each note with all the partials of the notes contributing to the sound. In some cases, the beat at the single matching partial level is different when all the partials are contributing to the one beat."

    Perhaps the last sentence in the above quote was Virgil's observation as to why 'a three string unison "sounds" slightly flatter than the individual strings alone.'


    ------------------------------
    Rick Butler
    Bowie MD
    240 396 7480
    RickRickRickRickRick
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Posted 08-18-2018 10:59
    I've been going back and reading Virgil's articles in the journal. Here's a simple test he gave to prove that the whole sounds different than it's elements.


    ------------------------------
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it".

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Posted 08-18-2018 13:55

    The drop in pitch of coupled strings has been studied exhaustively in acoustics. Jim Ellis' article in tho September 1982 PTJournal communicates the principles in images we can understand. If the bridge did not move, we would hear no sound. The bridge is flexible and the moving string causes the bridge to move, in effect causing the string to "think" it's a little longer than it really is. Three strings together push harder on the bridge, causing the bridge to move more and so the strings "think" they are a little longer and they sound lower in pitch.
    This effect is unpredictable from note to note. I believe Virgil felt it was more observable in octaves 5 and 6. You can't predict it, you can only try tuning the note, then the unison, then check to see if it has occurred. Virgil's approach assumed patience, and that it might take some tiny corrections to get it right.
    His concern for careful checking and correcting applied to the entire piano. It is not easy to make a direct 0.3 cents change in the pitch of a string. Virgil's "unison cracking" technic is a way (maybe the only way) to make very tiny adjustments in pitch without bouncing the string back and forth: too sharp...too flat...too sharp...and so on. Just moving the string enough to make a tiny flaw in the unison moves it that tiny 0.3 cents in a controlled way.



    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Member
    Posted 08-18-2018 11:18
    I sat next to Dr Sanderson while watching Virgil tune. Dr Sandersan was supposed to scientifically verify the claim that 2 strings played together are slightly flat compared to one string,
    Virgil tuned the two wires. Played separately they were exactly the same. Aural checks and The accutuner agreed.
    Played together, Virgil showed the aural checks that indicated it was slightly flat. 
    Dr Sanderson couldn't find the difference until he went to the 4th partial and that partial was flat in comparison.

    Seems to me that might be why I don't like a too stretched out treble. The 4th partial from the tenor wouldn't line up with the treble.






  • 15.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-18-2018 11:52
    Maybe I'm not visualizing what you're saying, Keith, but it seems to me you have it backwards. The important takeaway from Virgil and Dr. Sanderson is that as you tune the unison, the pitch drops every so slightly. That's why it's important to tune the first string on the high side so that when it drops as the unison is brought in, the final unison position is still high enough to be good. That's where Virgil's "cracking the unison" is so important to final accuracy. That procedure allows the tuner to make the finest of corrections to end up with not only a good unison, but a unison that is properly placed to make it fit in with the tuning universe of a particular piano.

    When you say that you don't like a too-stretched-out treble, it seems to me that you have to actually start with the first string being "too stretched out" so that the final placement of the unison isn't stretched out as the other two strings are tuned. 

    Also, I think it is interesting the degree of accuracy that Virgil was able to show. All of us aural tuning people should stand up for the power of multiple checks and the aural tuning accuracy. The questions we have to continually deal with is how much stretch is enough, and how much time are we going to spend trying to be perfect and when are we going to quit when it's good enough meaning not only accurate but stable.

    Richard West





  • 16.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-18-2018 14:12
    What Virgil Smith pointed out is know as the Weinrich Effect. Yes, tuning a unison will cause the pitch to drop slightly if it was flat before; that's just part of tuning. What the Weinrich Effect says is that a unison that's already tuned has a different pitch than each of the individual parts.

    Try this: tune a unison as pure as you possibly can, then put the hammer down! Now measure the pitch of one string with an ETD. Now measure the pitch of two strings, then the open unison. In each case, the pitch will be slightly different. I've personally measured differences up to 0.78 cents, after the unison was tuned, between one string and all three.

    That's what Virgil pointed out, and that's what whole tone tuning seeks to correct: not only the slight pitch drop from tuning the unison, but also the Weinrich Effect.

    Virgil's book is an awesome resource. David Andersen explained it to me farther. Perhaps he would like to chime in?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Member
    Posted 08-21-2018 16:47
    What I'm saying is Dr Sanderson measured the Fundamental or 1st partial and detected no change in pitch. 
    He then changed to measure the 2nd partial and no change in pitch.
    He changed to the 4th partial and detected a drop in pitch.

    Virgil's aural check to produce a beat that we could hear the difference must have been based on the 4th partial. We assume the other partials had to go flat if the 4th partial does,,,, The RCT tunes by the partials,,,,, I get different readings if I stop the spinner or if I measure the note individually.
    This was a Steinway B. Other pianos might have different measurements.

    I happened to have Dr Sanderson wander into the room I was in after the class and I asked him if it was interference at the bridge or direct air wave interference in the close proximity of the wires. He got excited and didn't have an answer,,, smart man.

    In case you were wondering I scored in the top 1% in the nation on the math part of the SAT. Then I had 5 quarters of math, 3 of physics, 3 of chemistry, 2 of mechanical engineering at UC Santa Barbara,,, not that I remember any of it,,,,, but it helps when listening to technical discussions to have that intuitive sense. No, I didn't have it backwards what I saw. Verification through duplication is the only way to really know what the reality is. But then there are always exceptions,,,

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-728-2163
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-21-2018 19:10
    I just got back from 3 days in ultra quiet and peaceful lake surroundings in northern Vermont. No internet, no cell phone, no messaging...Ahhhhhh...😊

    So, as I see it, it doesn't really matter to me what the actual "cause" of the Weinrich effect is...it happens. And it happens enough (not 100%) to warrant having a method to deal with it, which is what Virgil did.

    My current method (which I have found very effective) is to put the first string of the unison (let's just say the left) where I want it, then tune the next string slightly higher (with a "micro-beat" [I forget now who coined this]). This tends to influence the first string UP (counteracting the WE). Then I tune the 3rd string slightly higher (micro-beat) which sometimes influences it even higher (but sometimes not). Now I listen to the octave. If I'm happy I move on. If not I mess with it till I'm happy.

    Occasionally the WE is so strong between the first and second strings that I have to literally induce a beat into the octave first, which the second string will bring down to near where I want it. Then on to the 3rd to see what that does. 

    I have proven to myself over and over that this is all quite real by using Tunelab to measure the first, then the second, then the combined effect, then on to the 3rd. The degree of power of the WE varies from note to note and piano to piano. 

    Now, I have also found that in this procedure I may hear "movement" in the unison a tad too much. I have repeatedly found that if I go back to the MIDDLE string and manipulate that ever so slightly I can very often silence that movement while still maintaining its integrity (and bloom) and the ascending pattern in the strings. 

    Sometimes the piano will simply not allow me to do this routine and it wants dead-on unisons. Fine...then that's what I do (still compensating for whatever WE happens to be present in that piano).

    This is my current strategy for dealing with the issue. I am certainly open to other methods that are employed, and would like to hear them.

    Pwg


    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Posted 08-24-2018 14:12
    I'm still searching for a copy btw.
    Schaff no longer carries it. Since I had them on the phone, i thought I'd try the Rick Butler book and video. 
    Discontinued as well.





  • 20.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-02-2019 10:53
    Just happened upon this old thread.

    So fascinating. My biggest regret in piano tuning is not meeting Virgil. 

    I'd like to make some comments on the unison drifting though that I hope will clarify some important misconceptions. I'm working on a submission for PTJ called Piano Tuning Myths and I think I've found another one:

    "The final pitch of a trichord can be lower than the single string"

    Technically False!

    My myths are based of disproving statements that are not 100% correct, and therefore cause confusion, and this statement which has been voiced by everyone with an opinion on it above, is false because it is not 100% correct, including the explanations of why it occurs.

    Let me share my path to the understanding of this phenomenon.

    At first, probably from reading Virgil's book, I was under the false impression, as many here have voiced, that the final pitch of a trichord can occasionally go flat. I had observed this in my own tuning.

    In presenting this on various forums, someone mentioned the Weinreich Effect.

    During a presentation at my local PTG chapter, I was trying to demonstrate this and, lo and behold, the final pitch went sharp. Obviously this threw me for a loop.

    In my attempt to find out what the heck was going on, I contacted Professor Gabriel Weinreich and he corrected me. When I said the pitch is supposed to go flat, he said, "Not exactly. The pitch could go flat, or it could go sharp, and there is no way to tell."

    Since then I have created a video demonstrating the phenomenon, and I have also written an article that contains data from experiments that confirms that,

          "The final pitch of a trichord can stay the same, go down, or up, and it is unpredictable."

    From this observation, any instruction to "Tune a string slightly sharp first in order to anticipate the drop" is misguided and will cause confusion when the final pitch either doesn't change, or rises.

    Here is a link to my video:
    http://howtotunepianos.com/2016/02/12/unison-drift/

    In my correspondence with Professor Weinreich, who is still alive at 91 years old, he said of the video above:
    "For a particular string attached to a particular soundboard, it could go either way. Which is exactly what your beautiful videos show."
    (I have attached his entire email response for those interested, below.)

    Here is a link to the article in March 2016:
    https://my.ptg.org/viewdocument/ptj-2016-03?CommunityKey=7207b7a3-572f-4e55-8469-ebe01384719b&tab=librarydocuments

    In the article I refer to a technique I have defined as "Double String Unison". I do not say "a technique I have invented" because this technique has been used by many other high level technicians before me and I have just systematized its use. It is in effect the "Unison Cracking" that was mentioned above, but at a much higher level; I am tuning the whole piano from beginning to end using unison cracking.

    Email response from Professor Gabriel Weinreich:

    "Dear Mr Cerisano,

    As I recall our previous conversation, it concerned the tuning of three 'unison' strings. We consider the situation where two of the three strings are damped and the third is adjusted until its frequency is, by some appropriate criterion, "correct". Now we remove the damping of a second string of the triplet, and notice that although we haven't touched the one we just tuned, its frequency has shifted. The question is: in what direction did it shift, up or down?

    If that is not the question you had in mind, please correct me.

    If, however, it is indeed the question you had in mind, then my answer is that, on the basis of the data given, it could go either up or down. It all depends on the impedance of the bridge at that frequency; more specifically, it depends on the precise frequency response of the soundboard (to which the bridge is attached). The bridge, of course, moves very little, but still enough to get a precisely tuned string out of tune by a slight amount.

    Up or down? That depends on exactly how the string frequency lines up with the resonances of the soundboard. For a particular string attached to a particular soundboard, it could go either way. Which is exactly what your beautiful videos show.

    Best regards, Gabriel Weinreich"

    ------------------------------
    Mark Cerisano, RPT
    http://howtotunepianos.com
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-02-2019 11:06
    Hi Mark,
    My experience is exactly as you say. The pitch can go up, go down, or stay the same. It is what Gabriel Weinreich said his article that I read many years ago. And it is true as you suggest, many only think of the tone as going flat. 

    This is why strip muting a piano, tuning the center strings, and then pulling in the unisons is somewhat futile, especially when doing a high level tuning. Virgil Smith was ahead of his time in some respects. Although I never met with him in person, I talked with him on the phone when he was in his 90's, just like you have done with Gabriel Weinreich. 

    I appreciate your passion and encourage you to continue with your research.

    ------------------------------
    Rick Butler
    Bowie MD
    240 396 7480
    RickRickRickRickRick
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-02-2019 15:10
    Right. Unison pitch drop and the Weinreich Effect are two separate things, and they both happen.

    Unison pitch drop (UPD) occurs when one pulls up a note if it was flat. The result will be that the note shifts flat due to the changes in tension of the surrounding area. If the note was sharp, the result will be that it ends up shifting  sharp after tuning it. In both cases the amount will vary based on the amount of change and the scale. This is predictable, and is one of the reasons CyberTuner is so popular. SmartTune mode can counter this because the amount of change is predictable.

    The Weinreich Effect (WE) states that the pitch of a given unison will be different than the pitch of any one of its individual stings. That difference can either be sharp or flat, and is unpredictable. To make matters more complicated, it may not happen on any notes in that particular piano. Other pianos, it may happen on almost every note. Again, we don't really know what causes it, only that it happens, and is unpredictable when it does.

    The way to counter UPD is to overpull by specific amounts in certain areas of the scale - or tune it twice or more until the amount of drop is unnoticeable. The only way to counter the WE is to tune the whole unison, then compare with the rest of the (already completed and checked) tuning. Move the unison either way if it needs it. There's no other way around it that I know of.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Posted 04-02-2019 23:10
    Update:
    I never did acquire a copy of the book.
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    Troubles are Bubbles, and they just float away.
    chernobieffpiano.com
    grandpianoman@protonmail.com
    Knoxville, TN
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Posted 04-03-2019 09:17
    I have one...want it?  PM me if you do.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Posted 04-02-2019 17:44
    THANK YOU so much for bringing forward this phenonomen.

    Perhaps it might not be so prominent for those who tune purely by ear but for those of us who use an electronic device, whether TuneLab or in my case more recently a CTS-5 machine, the precision of these devices is extreme and I've often found the trichord to show flatter than the original strings and had put it down to my inadequate technique. What a comfort to know that it isn't.

    I have found that where this happens, one string is just very slightly lower and as a result pulls phase differences with the other strings which show a leftwards drift on the meter. But whilst one can attribute some circumstances to error, other instances seem to be quite inexplicable and some instruments are really much worse than others in their susceptibility.

    For me it occurs most annoyingly in the treble octave.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 26.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Posted 04-05-2019 13:52
    As a younger tuner it is always great to hear that the influential people you hear about were good people and had the patiece to work with younger students who may have asked questions that they hear a thousand times. i will go and look for this book. it sounds like it has alot of interesting insights.

    ------------------------------
    Shane Phoner
    Fort Worth Tuner
    http://fortworthpianotuning.com

    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Wanting a copy of Virgil Smiths Tuning book

    Posted 04-09-2019 21:20
    Update:
    Finally received a copy today.  Big shout out and thank you to Jim Iallegio for sending it. 
    I'm glad that Virgil goes deep into the D3-D4 Temperament, as that is what i wanted to play with. I like his reason why he uses it- " It avoids having to arrive at the exact beat speed of the F3-A3 M3rd immediately, and the minor 3rds are easier to hear in the lower octave" 
    Time to get to work,
    Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Troubles are Bubbles, and they just float away.
    chernobieffpiano.com
    grandpianoman@protonmail.com
    Knoxville, TN
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------